Hornby announce the ex SECR / SR / BR(s) Wainwright H Class 0-4-4 tank as part of their 2017 range

[GreenGiraffe22]

If this loco turns out to be the start of more pre grouping liveried locos, I may well start a second LBSC /SECR themed layout, I've always wanted to, but I'm not so great at kit building, I mean I used to build airfix model planes all the time, but they're pretty easy, getting a kit loco built and painted to a standard I'm happy with is probably beyond my skills, especially when it comes to fitting a motor, I wouldn't have a clue. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Truth is the manufacturers have near cleared out all the popular and numerous steam classes built in the Big Four and BR period. For so long as there is sufficient demand for 'never previously available in RTR' steam loco model introductions to justify the tooling, the proportion of pre-group subjects necessarily has to rise. Which is nice.

 

...Doesn't anybody model branch lines any more?

 Dr Beeching was very insistent on this matter.  ;-)

 

The key code being 0-4-4 T rather than 4-4-0, I think.

 Considered purely as a mechanism, it makes no difference. A good layout for a 4-4-0 mechanism is equally suited to an 0-4-4T. Since Hornby have done a good job on their recent 4-4-0 which has more than adequate traction, they have the know how to do better than on the earlier M7 model.

 

Which model carefully adjusted is actually pretty good. On level track I have found it capable of taking 11 Bach mk 1 coaches reliably, at 12 it couldn't manage a restart with the train around a curve. Very few layouts operate trains of that length I would suggest. But there is definitely scope for more traction from an 0-4-4T, with a better arranged interior layout.

[IWCR]

Excellent  having  another  SR  tank  loco.

It  is  nice  to  have  a  good  recent  selection  of  Southern  Railway  locos  appearing,  yes  modellers  of  some  other  areas  of  the  country  are  feeling  left  out  but  please  remember the  SR  built  no  small  passenger  engines  at  all  hence  the  pre-grouping  engines  are  those  which  ran  into  the  50's and  60's.  If  you  want  to  build  a  SR  or  BR  Southern  Region  branchline  model  these are the  locos  you  need. 

The  rest  of the  big  4  built  small  passengers  locos  throughout  their  existence  and  these  have  been  well  covered  by  makers  in  the  past,  yes  pre- grouping  coverage  is  limited  and  this  is  detrimental  to  areas  such  as  Scotland  where  (like  the  Southern)  they  carried  on  till  a  late date. 

I  would  hope  that  many  more  earlier  designs  appear  for  all  areas  will  appear  in due  course  but  like  the  SR  locos  a  type which  lasted  throughout  the  grouping and  well  into  BR  days   will  have  better  sales  than  something  which  vanished  in  the  1920's/30's.

Now  (starting  to  be  addressed)  appropriate  carriages  please  for  all  areas,  again  this  is  often  the  stock  used  on  branchlines  well  into  BR  days  hence  a  good  prospect  of  sales,  model  coverage  is  good  for  mainlines  from  mid/late  grouping  onwards  but  little  for  the  earlier stock  which  was  often  then  cascaded  to  the  branchlines.

 

Pete

[Edwardian]

If this loco turns out to be the start of more pre grouping liveried locos, I may well start a second LBSC /SECR themed layout, I've always wanted to, but I'm not so great at kit building, I mean I used to build airfix model planes all the time, but they're pretty easy, getting a kit loco built and painted to a standard I'm happy with is probably beyond my skills, especially when it comes to fitting a motor, I wouldn't have a clue. 

 

Agree - space (length) does not presently permit, but a subject I'd like to tackle is the LBSC Quarry Line and the SE&CR/LBSC old mainline running parallel down to Redhill.  This gives the chance for both express and stopping trains.  Of course, at the time I had not realised that Bachmann intended only an ex-LBSC Atlantic!

 

Nevertheless, I wonder if such a layout gives the excuse to run an H and an E4 in parallel, so to speak?  

 

I did not get round to investigating SECR services to and via Redhill (I believe some went on to Reading, giving the excuse for some GW stock!) but it does not seem improbable that H Class tanks could take an outer suburban/stopper that far in SECR days, or was that not the case? 

 

Anyway, we are certainly approaching the day when a prototype or plausibly fictional scenario that allowed both LBSC and SE&CR might be within the reach of the RTR modeller.  An exciting development!

 

Of course, you'd still need to build yourself a Billington block set somehow!

[Wickham Green]

There were four pages on this topic when I started reading it just now - nowe there are seven ........... SLOW DOWN FOR GAWD'S SAKE - I CAN'T KEEP UP !

[Wickham Green]

.

 

Excellent news.

 

It may just be me, but are the H-Class buffers rather small ?

H Class FRONT buffers should, indeed, be 'rather small' - as should those of most Wainwright locos ....... but those on the REAR of his tankies should be larger.

[No Decorum]

Agree - space (length) does not presently permit, but a subject I'd like to tackle is the LBSC Quarry Line and the SE&CR/LBSC old mainline running parallel down to Redhill.  This gives the chance for both express and stopping trains.  Of course, at the time I had not realised that Bachmann intended only an ex-LBSC Atlantic!

 

Nevertheless, I wonder if such a layout gives the excuse to run an H and an E4 in parallel, so to speak?  

 

I did not get round to investigating SECR services to and via Redhill (I believe some went on to Reading, giving the excuse for some GW stock!) but it does not seem improbable that H Class tanks could take an outer suburban/stopper that far in SECR days, or was that not the case? 

 

Anyway, we are certainly approaching the day when a prototype or plausibly fictional scenario that allowed both LBSC and SE&CR might be within the reach of the RTR modeller.  An exciting development!

 

Of course, you'd still need to build yourself a Billington block set somehow!

It could be that Bachmann thinks that pre-grouping will not sell as well as grouping and later. If that is the case, an LBSC-liveried Atlantic might turn up as a Collectors’ Club item. I hope so.

[Edwardian]

It could be that Bachmann thinks that pre-grouping will not sell as well as grouping and later. If that is the case, an LBSC-liveried Atlantic might turn up as a Collectors’ Club item. I hope so.

 

Well let me know in time to join if it does!

 

Birchgrove was not persuasive! 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Well there we have it, the first 2017 announcement of the year - it has been a while coming but we’re back! One thing to consider though, whilst at the wonderful Bluebell Railway last year, we couldn’t resist taking some snaps of other pieces of railway history as well, but let’s save that for another time shall we?

 

My guess at a future model would be a terrier as the Bluebell have two, long life plenty of liveries and the old model is pretty crude by todays standards.

 

[John M Upton]

I can confirm that the H class made it as far west as Horsham, my father in law's photo collection shows two different ones on shed, one early crest and one late crest circa 1957 to 1960.  Did they make it beyond there as far as Guildford though?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...modellers  of  some  other  areas  of  the  country  are  feeling  left  out  but  please  remember the  SR  built  no  small  passenger  engines  at  all  hence  the  pre-grouping  engines  are  those  which  ran  into  the  50's and  60's.  If  you  want  to  build  a  SR  or  BR  Southern  Region  branchline  model  these are the  locos you need. 

I'd consider this as the SR still in catch up after long neglect. It may just be a fluke, but the hundred or so pre-BR steam traction designs with good RTR OO models are now fairly evenly distributed around the Big Four groups.

 

And although there may well be later built alternative traction for the other three, this need for pre-group traction is pretty universal to near the end of the 'early crest' period inmnay locations, if a model railway is to present a rounded picture. Even the GWR with all its standardisation passed over fifty classes of pre 1923 non-GWR design traction into BR's care. The only item of these represented is I think the ROD. Whereas the other three groups each have several RTR models providing a glimpse of 'what went before' in terms of design variety from their constituents.

[Ian J.]

Regarding an increase in pre-grouping prototypes, be careful. Most of these are coming via the existence of one or more in preservation, so there is a 'hook' for present day purchases. Any type that doesn't have something in preservation (be it an original or a new build) is unlikely to get a look in with the big companies like Hornby or Bachmann. Those would be more likely to appear via commissioning.

 

Regarding the Terriers, if it's not Dapol, whoever decides to bring one out for OO will have Dapol chasing them with it. Don't forget they've re-done their research for the 7mm version, so it wouldn't take them long at all to adjust it for the 4mm market. Despite the array of liveries and variants, is there really enough demand for two different manufacturers with the Terriers?

[Edwardian]

Regarding an increase in pre-grouping prototypes, be careful. Most of these are coming via the existence of one or more in preservation, so there is a 'hook' for present day purchases. Any type that doesn't have something in preservation (be it an original or a new build) is unlikely to get a look in with the big companies like Hornby or Bachmann. Those would be more likely to appear via commissioning.

 

Regarding the Terriers, if it's not Dapol, whoever decides to bring one out for OO will have Dapol chasing them with it. Don't forget they've re-done their research for the 7mm version, so it wouldn't take them long at all to adjust it for the 4mm market. Despite the array of liveries and variants, is there really enough demand for two different manufacturers with the Terriers?

 

Regrettably I agree with your assessment, but at least the H wasn't rebuilt post-Grouping, so, like the C Class, LBSC E4 and LSW M7, they are of use to pre-Groupers, even if not made with them in mind!

 

I'm grateful for small mercies.

 

It is the older, Victorian, types where we are apt to have less luck, like the Terrier model, which tries to be both the original A1 and the rebuilt A1X at the same time, thus, of course, being neither!  And, as you say, rather crude.

 

I don't care who makes a new one as long as we get an A1 as well as an A1X!

[No Decorum]

Regrettably I agree with your assessment, but at least the H wasn't rebuilt post-Grouping, so, like the C Class, LBSC E4 and LSW M7, they are of use to pre-Groupers, even if not made with them in mind!

 

I'm grateful for small mercies.

 

It is the older, Victorian, types where we are apt to have less luck, like the Terrier model, which tries to be both the original A1 and the rebuilt A1X at the same time, thus, of course, being neither!  And, as you say, rather crude.

 

I don't care who makes a new one as long as we get an A1 as well as an A1X!

Some of them at least were provided with a plastic part to lengthen the boiler smokebox. It was, perhaps, a small mercy and to design the tooling to produce both would be a much better idea.

Edited September 26, 2016 by No Decorum

[brushman47544]

Try again...

 

I can confirm that the H class made it as far west as Horsham, my father in law's photo collection shows two different ones on shed, one early crest and one late crest circa 1957 to 1960.  Did they make it beyond there as far as Guildford though?

 

From the David Heys collection website, there's this photo of 31005 at Guildford:

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0000-0-a-l-darnton-16.jpg

 

Unfortunately the caption (on the main page http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page32.htm) doesn't say how it got there, only that it was waiting to go on shed.

Edited September 26, 2016 by brushman47544

[phil-b259]

I can confirm that the H class made it as far west as Horsham, my father in law's photo collection shows two different ones on shed, one early crest and one late crest circa 1957 to 1960.  Did they make it beyond there as far as Guildford though?

 

They may have done - but it would not be a normal state of affairs. After grouping pre Maunsell ex SECR products rarely ventured west of the BML and ex LSWR products rarely ventured East of the same. Post 1959, phase 1 of the Kent Coast electrification may have released some H class tanks - but by that stage North Downs trains were in the hands of Maunsell moguls and Horsham duties were covered by M7s

[BG John]

I suppose they didn't get as far as Reading when first built did they? My Dad, who was getting on a bit when I was born, so I'm nowhere near as ancient as it would make me seem, was born at the farm between the SECR and LSWR lines in Wokingham, and would have been about 2 when they first appeared. Not that I want yet another modelling subject to consider!

[DavidH]

Photographic evidence puts them on some Brighton-Horsham services at least in late 1950s to withdrawl. Have a look at Ian D. Nolans photos (e.g. "late 50s" 31276 at Hove: https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/9785637081/in/album-72157612230218431/). 31276 was shedded at Brighton in 1960 if the Locoshed book is accurate.

 

Looking at Southern Region Engine Workings (CJ.Gammell, OPC), duties 747-752 in Winter 1960 were allocated to an H class, and involved trips between Brighton and Horsham and Horsham and Guildford, as well as one Pulborough-Horsham duty and a couple of hours shunting the Pullman shops. According to one of the photo captions they had replaced M7s on these duties. They were in turn replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2Ts

Edited September 26, 2016 by DavidH

[phil-b259]

I suppose they didn't get as far as Reading when first built did they? My Dad, who was getting on a bit when I was born, so I'm nowhere near as ancient as it would make me seem, was born at the farm between the SECR and LSWR lines in Wokingham, and would have been about 2 when they first appeared. Not that I want yet another modelling subject to consider!

Quite possibly they did (get to Reading in that is).

 

The North Downs line is a bit curious in that up till grouping, it could be considered to be similar to the likes of the SMJR as an oddity in the LSWR dominated area. As such under the SR any SECR influenced would have diminished with the western section taking charge - not that disimilar to the GWR removing SMJR influences and replacing them with their own products.

[Oldddudders]

Photographic evidence puts them on some Brighton-Horsham services at least in late 1950s to withdrawl. Have a look at Ian D. Nolans photos (e.g. "late 50s" 31276 at Hove: https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/9785637081/in/album-72157612230218431/). 31276 was shedded at Brighton in 1960 if the Locoshed book is accurate.

 

Looking at Southern Region Engine Workings (CJ.Gammell, OPC), duties 747-752 in Winter 1960 were allocated to an H class, and involved trips between Brighton and Horsham and Horsham and Guildford, as well as one Pulborough-Horsham duty and a couple of hours shunting the Pullman shops. According to one of the photo captions they had replaced M7s on these duties. They were in turn replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2Ts

 

Chris Gammell snapped a pair of H tanks crossing on passenger trains at Cranleigh in a sadly undated pic in 'Southern Branchlines 1955-65'. I think my late first wife typed the manuscript for this book. In another caption he quotes the LBSC D3s on this route as being replaced by M7s, then the Hs took over, themselves giving way to the 2-6-2s as said above.

[The Stationmaster]

Quite possibly they did (get to Reading in that is).

 

The North Downs line is a bit curious in that up till grouping, it could be considered to be similar to the likes of the SMJR as an oddity in the LSWR dominated area. As such under the SR any SECR influenced would have diminished with the western section taking charge - not that disimilar to the GWR removing SMJR influences and replacing them with their own products.

 

SECR engines survived in considerable numbers at Reading right into the early 1950s although the vast majority were Stirling 4-4-0s but at least one ex LCDR tank engine is recorded as being allocated to reading at the time of withdrawal.

[John M Upton]

Apologies for the quality but these are my father in law's box brownie photos of H Class 31162 and possibly 31530 at Horsham, probably around 1958 to 1960:

 

 

The small looking front buffers are clearly visible.  Would like to know what the coach behind 31162 is.

Edited September 27, 2016 by John M Upton

[Compound2632]

SECR engines survived in considerable numbers at Reading right into the early 1950s although the vast majority were Stirling 4-4-0s but at least one ex LCDR tank engine is recorded as being allocated to reading at the time of withdrawal.

 

Class F1 I presume?

 

I've though for a while that a pre-grouping or at least pre-electrification layout based on my local station, Earley, and ideally including the rather elegant bridge over the Loddon (without A329M!) would be rather nice - and increasingly possible with at least plausible RTR stock - LSWR M7 (+Roxey LSWR non-corridors), SECR C, H + birdcage set...

[trevor7598]

Apologies for the quality but these are my father in law's box brownie photos of H Class 31162 and possibly 31530 at Horsham, probably around 1958 to 1960:

 

31162.jpg

31530.jpg

 

The small looking front buffers are clearly visible.  Would like to know what the coach behind 31162 is.

 

HI John,

The coach in your image is an ex. SECR 10 compartment, 100 Seat, all third.

In the picture it is almost certainly a strengthening vehicle for a two coach push / pull set.

[The Stationmaster]

Class F1 I presume?

 

I've though for a while that a pre-grouping or at least pre-electrification layout based on my local station, Earley, and ideally including the rather elegant bridge over the Loddon (without A329M!) would be rather nice - and increasingly possible with at least plausible RTR stock - LSWR M7 (+Roxey LSWR non-corridors), SECR C, H + birdcage set...

 

31603,  Kirtley T according to a site on the 'net.  Reading also acquired a couple of LBSCR tanks in BR days in the '50s.