Hornby announce the ex SECR / SR / BR(s) Wainwright H Class 0-4-4 tank as part of their 2017 range

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

....Whatever prototype one picks for an r-t-r pre-group model will, by definition, displease more modellers than it pleases...

 I'd hope that the truth would be ' by definition, will not interest the majority of modellers'.

 

I am certainly not displeased when a manufacturer brings out something that I have no use for, as it is evidence of continuing confidence in the market for such products. The manufacturers random shots are bound to hit upon something of interest sooner or later.

[Oldddudders]

the odd nugget of pre-Grouping information gets easily lost in the crowd of posts.  For instance, I posted concerning whether anyone knew where the Hs worked prior to WW1, specifically, would they have been seen down the old mainline as far Redhill.

 

That sparked off a number of posts about the class's distribution in the '50s and '60s, which was interesting, informative and doubtless useful for the majority of H Class customers, but it was as if I'd never mentioned their pre-Grouping workings!  How quickly we reset to the hobby's current default!

 

 

 

No. It merely suggests that no-one on here knows! Most of us are only too willing to demonstrate/air/share our knowledge on any subject under the sun once the question is asked. OTOH posting a question like that in the middle of an RTR loco thread may not be scooping the whole knowledge pool. There may be better parts of RMweb in which to pose it. 

[Edwardian]

No. It merely suggests that no-one on here knows! Most of us are only too willing to demonstrate/air/share our knowledge on any subject under the sun once the question is asked. OTOH posting a question like that in the middle of an RTR loco thread may not be scooping the whole knowledge pool. There may be better parts of RMweb in which to pose it. 

 

Well, indeed.  I meant simply that the interest, hence the knowledge, of most tended to the later period, and I think this is why the idea, currently being discussed in the Pre-Grouping section of the site, that there are topics there on RTR releases, is a good one.  Andy Y closed the last one for duplication (!) but I think if it is understood that this is a bunch of pre-Groupers discussing the merits or otherwise of RTR releases from their perspective, we might get some, slightly, more focussed discussion!

[BG John]

But the H Class was only in service with the SECR for 19 years.

But this conversation has wandered off the H class into pre-grouping in general. I have a passing interest in it as they may have run past where my Dad was born, but he had moved into LSWR only territory in the next town by the time of the grouping. However, I would be pleased to see a genuine SECR version of it available, as it shows that these things are possible. if I was modelling Colonel Stephens railways in SECR territory in 4mm scale, rather than in 7mm, I might even dream up an excuse to buy one!

[Dunsignalling]

 I'd hope that the truth would be ' by definition, will not interest the majority of modellers'.

 

I am certainly not displeased when a manufacturer brings out something that I have no use for, as it is evidence of continuing confidence in the market for such products. The manufacturers random shots are bound to hit upon something of interest sooner or later.

I'd suggest that, if I were a modeller of one pre-group company, then I would regard the introduction of something from the other end of the country as, at best, a wasted opportunity. More important, would I buy one?

 

I haven't splashed out on Bachmann's E4 or C in BR livery, mainly because Kernow's O2 and Hornby's 700 are more appropriate for me but, hand on heart, the Southern Region really only differed from the pre-1923 situation by a coat of paint and I might not have even without the better alternatives.

 

My point was that, whatever the advocates of pre-group r-t-r claim, the quantities bought by those modelling the relevant prototype railway will be heavily outweighed by sales to collectors and people who like the pretty liveries but aren't too bothered what they partner the loco with. Hornby et al know that and will continue to make decisions accordingly.

 

The possibility of the r-t-r manufacturers, between them, ever producing to a coherent theme that will permit the representation of a particular pre-group railway in any depth is vanishingly remote.

 

Even the better-provided-for regions of the popular BR era have fairly noticeable omissions in coverage. The ex-Great Eastern boys have had a pretty good run in recent years but, no doubt, can come up with a "long shortlist". I could easily cite several items that would fill significant gaps in my Southern Region (West country) interests, too. If that applies in the most lucrative segment of the market, is it realistic to expect more elsewhere?     

Edited October 3, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[BG John]

I'd suggest that, if I were a modeller of one pre-group company, then I would regard the introduction of something from the other end of the country as, at best, a wasted opportunity. More important, would I buy one?

There's so much of interest to model, that it's very difficult to stick to one pre-group company. I'm modelling two, although strictly speaking one was never grouped, in different parts of the country. On the odd occasion that suitable RTR models appear, I start to get tempted to plan yet another small/micro layout for it. I'll never get enough locos and stock RTR, but one loco may well be enough to tempt me one day. Then there are areas like Battersea, that is being discussed in another topic, where a number of companies with a presence in London operated in the same area.

 

As for rolling stock, many wagons could have been seen far from home, although I still haven't found an excuse for any Oxford 4 plank opens in the West Country in 1905 yet. I've got a 7mm Parkside one that will be appearing on the Kent & East Sussex though!

[Edwardian]

I'd suggest that, if I were a modeller of one pre-group company, then I would regard the introduction of something from the other end of the country as, at best, a wasted opportunity. More important, would I buy one?

 

I haven't splashed out on Bachmann's E4 or C in BR livery, mainly because Kernow's O2 and Hornby's 700 are more appropriate for me but, hand on heart, the Southern Region really only differed from the pre-1923 situation by a coat of paint and I might not have even without the better alternatives.

 

My point was that, whatever the advocates of pre-group r-t-r claim, the quantities bought by those modelling the relevant prototype railway will be heavily outweighed by sales to collectors and people who like the pretty liveries but aren't too bothered what they partner the loco with. Hornby et al know that and will continue to make decisions accordingly.

 

The possibility of the r-t-r manufacturers, between them, ever producing to a coherent theme that will permit the representation of a particular pre-group railway in any depth is vanishingly remote.

 

Even the better-provided-for regions of the popular BR era have fairly noticeable omissions in coverage. The ex-Great Eastern boys have had a pretty good run in recent years but, no doubt, can come up with a "long shortlist". I could easily cite several items that would fill significant gaps in my Southern Region (West country) interests, too. If that applies in the most lucrative segment of the market, is it realistic to expect more elsewhere?     

 

Dunsignalling will be handing out razor blades to pre-Grouping modellers later. 

[Dunsignalling]

There's so much of interest to model, that it's very difficult to stick to one pre-group company. I'm modelling two, although strictly speaking one was never grouped, in different parts of the country. On the odd occasion that suitable RTR models appear, I start to get tempted to plan yet another small/micro layout for it. I'll never get enough locos and stock RTR, but one loco may well be enough to tempt me one day. Then there are areas like Battersea, that is being discussed in another topic, where a number of companies with a presence in London operated in the same area.

 

As for rolling stock, many wagons could have been seen far from home, although I still haven't found an excuse for any Oxford 4 plank opens in the West Country in 1905 yet. I've got a 7mm Parkside one that will be appearing on the Kent & East Sussex though!

I think it's a matter of attitude, whether one has a favourite bit of railway and wants to cover it in some depth or one gets "taken" by new attractions and fancies a dabble. 

 

I've done both; the first has undeniably spread out from my ex-LSWR core interests to include overlapping things like the S&DJR and justifiable WR interlopers but my out-and-out dabbles have never lasted. I want to do my "basic thing" well, and I don't really have the time or space to do much more.

 

I've been spoilt by having access to/involvement with big operationally-interesting layouts so very small ones cease to hold my interest once the modelling is done. I've dug an old 4' x 1' baseboard out, but that's going to be more in the nature of a scenic module for stock photography and it may not even get wired. 

 

All that said, I've been having a definite hankering after a faded KESR-influenced Light Railway in 7mm which doesn't seem to be fading........

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Dunsignalling will be handing out razor blades to pre-Grouping modellers later. 

I didn't imply it was impossible, just that getting much in the way of what you would regard as "proper" or "joined-up" r-t-r coverage will be difficult and open to much potential conflict-of-interest.

 

I am still convinced that, if one wishes to have a pre-group model railway, the way to do so within a normal human life-span is to make most of it for oneself and treat anything suitable that the r-t-r boys come up with as a welcome bonus. Breath should not be held.

 

John

Edited October 3, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

Dunsignalling will be handing out razor blades to pre-Grouping modellers later. 

 

Presumably as part of their drive to remove post-1923 extraneous detail and help with the backdating?

[Steamport Southport]

You are always going to get more people wanting the as preserved SECR locomotive than any of the original condition SECR H class. It's just the way it is. Many people have been to the Bluebell, very few people are over 100 years old.

 

This is also the reason why RTR manufacturers used to nearly always make the preserved example as their main model, particularly in the late 1970s and early 1980s. You could model virtually the whole of the Severn Valley Railway's working locomotive allocation with RTR at one point.

 

I remember the days when very few people wanted the BR liveried models and these were always discounted much more than the Big Four version. Now it seems that it's the other way round. People even wanted the preserved livery LMS Royal Scot more than the correct BR green version and the preserved LMS red Jinty was a massive seller.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Ozexpatriate]

You are always going to get more people wanting the as preserved SECR locomotive than any of the original condition SECR H class. It's just the way it is. Many people have been to the Bluebell, very few people are over 100 years old.

I think the reason is more of a prosaic one. The "as preserved" model is extant. It can be measured.

 

Trying to extrapolate and interpolate the exact condition of a locomotive in 1920 from drawings (which might not be accurate) and photographs (which might not represent anything but the singular locomotive photographed and necessarily will not show both sides of the locomotive, nor will they provide an accurate guide to colour) is much more difficult.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Ozexpatriate

[John M Upton]

Any chance we could turn the subject back to the H Class and the model thereof please?

[BG John]

You are always going to get more people wanting the as preserved SECR locomotive than any of the original condition SECR H class. It's just the way it is. Many people have been to the Bluebell, very few people are over 100 years old.

I've been to the Bluebell, and am well under 100 years old, but guess which I would want .

[Steamport Southport]

I think the reason is more of a prosaic one. The "as preserved" model is extant. It can be measured.

 

Trying to extrapolate and interpolate the exact condition of a locomotive in 1920 from drawings (which might not be accurate) and photographs (which might not represent anything but the singular locomotive photographed and necessarily will not show both sides of the locomotive, nor will they provide an accurate guide to colour) is much more difficult.

 

Would the SECR C class have sold as quickly as it did if it was a different number than 592? There seem to be plenty of the other versions still around at reasonable prices. As many have suggested it was probably a bit of a mistake making that version as a limited edition as they would have sold many more. It's a fact of life that most people like what is familiar or wanting to relive their memories

 

Getting back to H classes then. Nah, you're alright. I've already got a SEF one and a Roxey birdcage set in my pile.  

 

Although I'm tempted by the push/pull set.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I've been to the Bluebell, and am well under 100 years old, but guess which I would want .

 

BR lined black?

 

Which as everyone knows is the correct colour for all steam locomotives.

 

 

Jason

[BG John]

BR lined black?

 

Which as everyone knows is the correct colour for all steam locomotives.

 

 

Jason

The Bristol & Exeter Railway painted their locos black, but they weren't lined, and when the GWR absorbed them in the real grouping of 1875, they painted them a proper green .

[Compound2632]

BR lined black?

 

Which as everyone knows is the correct colour for all steam locomotives.

 

 

Jason

 

It's true, even though as a Midland enthusiast it takes some effort to admit it, that London & North Western Railway livery sits remarkably well on almost any locomotive, large or small, ancient or modern - and especially pre-grouping tank engines!

[Dunsignalling]

Would the SECR C class have sold as quickly as it did if it was a different number than 592? There seem to be plenty of the other versions still around at reasonable prices. As many have suggested it was probably a bit of a mistake making that version as a limited edition as they would have sold many more. It's a fact of life that most people like what is familiar or wanting to relive their memories

 

 

 

 

Jason

AFAIK it wasn't advertised as a limited edition, and there's nothing to stop them re-running it if they so choose.

 

John

[No Decorum]

I can see the sense in what they do. If they re-run the original C, only those without one are likely to buy it. If, as they did, they do another run in a different SE&CR livery, those without the original are likely to buy it and probably some who do have the original are likely to buy it as well. I speak as a contented victim of this policy.

[Budgie]

BR lined black?

 

Which as everyone knows is the correct colour for all steam locomotives.

• The Barry Railway didn't run SECR H class locomotives.
• The Barry Railway's locomotive livery was not lined black.

[No Decorum]

• The Barry Railway didn't run SECR H class locomotives.

A good thing too. If it had, locomotive and train would probably have ended up in the water, rather like Thomas the Tank Engine once did. 

[Richard Lee]

Just looked at Wikipedia.  Apparently, the H Class was used in the Central Sector (former LB&SCR) after 1929. It would therefore not be too much of a stretch for my 1933ish layout when it operates in Central Sector mode.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECR_H_class

[The Bigbee Line]

I know there was a request to get back to the H model.

 

Has any body mentioned a possible kitbash into the R1 0-6-0T?

 

I have seen a conversion the other way, IIRC it involved some cut and shut work with a replacement chassis. 

[Graham_Muz]

I know there was a request to get back to the H model.

 

Has any body mentioned a possible kitbash into the R1 0-6-0T?

 

I have seen a conversion the other way, IIRC it involved some cut and shut work with a replacement chassis. 

 

Whilst I am one of those who many years  ago cut and shut a Wrenn R1 into an H as per below (excuse the spurious malachite livery, I was a teenager at the time of the conversion and repaint) I am not sure why anyone would want to do it the other way round (as some say if that's where you want to go I wouldn't start from here) as Wrenn R1s are still easy to come by and with a little work (such as pipework, handrails, Romford wheels and etched coupling rods makes a reasonable model).