Hornby Announce Mk1 FO and BSO

[MRDBLUE17]

I hope Hornby do the Intercity charter stock too would make a nice rake.

 

Thanks

Mark

['CHARD]

 cut and shunt 

 

I bet I'm not alone in breathing a sigh of relief that the typo was this way round....

[47348scrh]

I hope Hornby do the Intercity charter stock too would make a nice rake.

Thanks

Mark

Whilst I would agree with this, we would also need a BCK and a buffet to make up the charter rake. Plus some nice white roofed intercity liveried Mk3 sleepers (I still have my Lima ones waiting for a roof repaint!)

 

Having said that, are the new Hornby mk1s that much better than the Replica ones ...

[tamperman36]

on the plus side the new Hornby coaches will have flush glazing and better underframe detail when compared to the old Replica coaches

[JSpencer]

Whilst I would agree with this, we would also need a BCK and a buffet to make up the charter rake. Plus some nice white roofed intercity liveried Mk3 sleepers (I still have my Lima ones waiting for a roof repaint!)

 

Having said that, are the new Hornby mk1s that much better than the Replica ones ...

 

I find the Replica coachs good for their time and they stand well (and can be mixed with) next to the newer Bachmann and Hornby Mk 1s.

 

That said, overall the Hornby Mk 1 is better because of flush glazing and marginally better underframe detail (though this is not noticeable at normal viewing heights).

 

The Bachmann model is superior to both due to all of its seperatly fitted detail (though I feel the shape is marginally better on the Replica and Hornby ones).

 

On long trains, I will not hesitate to run the 3 types together, though generally my green rakes of Replica and Bachmann run run separately with Hornby adding 1 green coach to the Bachmann rake.

The only thing that stands out there are the slightly different greens between makes. I feel Replica is spot on, with Hornby in second place and Bachmann a tad dark... anyway.

 

I have Bachmann's only making up rakes of Maroon, choc cream and blood/custard (these colours tend to be mixed in the same rake as I wish).

I will get additional Hornby ones, to make up a new rake of blue/grey Mk1s as I currently have only a couple of old 80s Hornby sleepers there and they don't look good. (and one new Hornby BG crying for a complement).

 

All 3 types (new Hornby, Bachmann and Replica) are vastly better than the old Hornby type which sit too high and really do stick out like a sore thumb and fail to look the part. The old Hornby can be run with old Lima (that equally looks out of place).

[chrisf]

Hi Chris, you don't happen to have sample consist details of how these WR excursion sets were made up?

 

This set me rummaging.  I have already explained that they had a BSO at each end and some SOs in between.  From some of the photographs that I have found in books it is clear that the number varied.  It is important to remember that the sets were first assembled in 1954 but the MK 1 BSOs did not arrive on the WR until late 1955.  Until they did it was necessary to use other brake vehicles.

 

Here is a list of the photographs that I have found so far.  I expect to find more when I have time to look.  Without exception the BSOs appear in specials or in one case a relief train.  The rostering of W9276 to the Cathedrals Express is the only instance I have found of such a vehicle running in a WR service train.  By contrast the Eastern seemed to have them coming out of its ears.

 

Steam between Swindon and the Severn, Mike Arlett and David Lockett

·         Page 43: City of Plymouth Holiday Express at Weston-super-Mare Locking Road, summer 1959. The frst BSO is in crimson and cream but much of the rest of the train is maroon.

·         Page 58: RCTS ‘Gloucester Rail Tour’ at Stonehouse, 21^st July 1963. 3 maroon SOs flanked by 2 BSOs with chocolate and cream RU at far end. Loco 82036

·         Page 79: SLS special near Cricklade, 10^th September 1961. First coach is a maroon BSO with brake end inwards. Loco 7808

 

Western Steam in Colour, Hugh Ballantyne

·         Page 96: SLS special at Appleford, 16^th June 1957. First coach is a crimson and cream BSO with brake end inward, followed by 5 SOs and, probably, another BSO in same livery. Loco 3440

 

Western Steam in Colour 2, Hugh Ballantyne

·         Page 95: WR Last Steam Special at Mangotsfield, 27^th November 1965. First coach is a very clean BSO in maroon with crest and maroon ends. Loco 7029

 

Steam Around Devon and Cornwall, Peter Gray

·         Page 78: Relief to Wolverhampton at Dainton, 12th August 1961. First coach is a BSO in lined maroon, followed by an SO and assorted other coaches including at least one Hawksworth.  Locos 4087 and 5164 in that order

 

Chris

Edited October 26, 2016 by chrisf

[Horsetan]

Has anybody checked the Wheels ???  

....or the gauge??

[tractor_37260]

Now available to Pre-order at Hattons - £33 each - assume that includes the recent price rise ? 

[Paul.Uni]

Now available to Pre-order at Hattons - £33 each - assume that includes the recent price rise ? 

No as Hattons states "Please note that specific details of this model including product code, price, running number, and specific tooling details are yet to be confirmed. As soon as this information is made available, you will be informed and given the option to amend your order." (My emphasis). You'll get an idea of how much it'll cost when Hornby put a price on their website.

[Phil Bullock]

Here's how the Chocolate and Cream BSO was used on The Cathedrals Express in the early 1960s. This is the front of the Up train to London Paddington. These front two carriages were added at Worcester for serving late breakfasts, serving high tea/dinner on the 17.15 return, the other seven carriages came from Hereford (4) and Kidderminster (3) respectively, as reported by Robert C above. Looks like I need some loco and coach nameboards!     BK

 

CIMG5183.jpg

Just imagine the operating sequence to make this train up at Worcester - lets use this photo as reference. The line the Peak is on is the up platform road, then towards us we have up through, down through, down platform road.

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=map+of+shrub+hill+station&view=detailv2&&id=2F81AB253F81FD11347A44C0685299B82B427E5A&selectedIndex=27&ccid=gQ%2bqWIa3&simid=607989043275366896&thid=OIP.M810faa5886b72e81c20b3aee31fa3c44H0&ajaxhist=0

 

So...station pilot (57xx) brings BSO and restaurant from Midland Rd carriage sidings and deposits them on up through road. Train loco (Castle) comes off shed, runs through station on down through road, crosses over and back on to stock standing in up through road.

 

Kidderminster portion arrives behind a Kidder loco (usually a 45xx or 51xx IIRC) in up platform road. Stops past scissors crossover which is half way along up platform, loco hooks off, runs forwards and then reverses over to down side and on to shed.

 

Hereford portion arrives behind a 4-6-0 (Castle or Hall IIRC), stops short of scissors crossover in up through road, loco hooks off, crosses over to up through road via scissors crossover, and then reverses over trailing crossover to down through road and on to shed.

 

So we now have loco plus 2 coaches stood on up through road, 4 coach Kidderminster portion stood past scissors crossover towards up end of up platform and 3 coach Hereford portion behind this with a gap where scissors crossover is.

 

Loco plus 2 coaches now pulls forward from up through on to up main and reverses in to up platform line, shunting all 3 portions together. Shunter couples up, brake test and we are ready for the right away....

 

What are the chances of that lot going smoothly every day? Must have been spectacular to watch - and still happened in late 60s with Warships and Hymeks although only the Hereford portion to add to stock from carriage sidings....

 

Proper railway operations!

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Have been looking at cut and shut options today

 

As Robert C has pointed out an RF is possible from a Bachmann RU and RFO with a single cut and shut- but how about a BFK from a Hornby BSO and a Bachmann FK? The brake area configuration looks the same on the BSO except that the luggage compartment is larger on the BFK - so 2 cut and shuts perhaps to insert the extension....

 

As the Newton le Willows - Newton Abbott motorail needs both BFK and RF could be tempted - RF first I think

 

But we all know what that would lead to!!!!

 

Phil

[Ian J.]

...but how about a BFK from a Hornby BSO and a Bachmann FK? The brake area configuration looks the same on the BSO except that the luggage compartment is larger on the BFK - so 2 cut and shuts perhaps to insert the extension...

The biggest problem between the two manufacturers' products will be the difference in the tumblehome. There might also be slight differences in height of the sides, plus window positioning. In general I wouldn't want to attempt such a melding across two different product lines.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Ian J.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks Ian....will have to assess that when the model emerges

 

Then theres the question of any repaint .... if got to do a respray then might as well do as Robert says and use Comet sides....

 

Phil

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Phil,

   You could make a BFK from a Bachmann BSK and FK, here's my BFK made from a Kitmaster BSK and RFO, which proves the theory, the latter has the same spacing and number of large windows as a FK, in fact i've made a fair few Kitmaster style FKs from RFOs.

 

 

Bringing the thread back on topic, here's a BSO, using the same Kitmaster parts.

 

 

In fact using three donor Kitmasters, 2x BSK and one FK, I managed to squeeze out three new vehicles with no waste! This doesn't often happen with conversions, usually lots of bits are left over. So the three donors produced BFK, BSO and this one below, a BCK (count the large windows and sets of double doors in the donors,and you can just do it). Now obviously it's only old nutters like me that still mess around with the 50 year old Kitmasters, you don't need to make a BCK out of Bachmann bits, now you don't need to make a BSO, but a couple of coaches to make a BFK is still worthwhile.

                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

 

[chrisf]

It is so good to see Brian's work again.  I had a stab at such things 50+ years ago of which the least said the better ...

 

Here are some more trails to pictures of WR BSOs.

 

Tribute to the Western – R J Blenkinsop

·         Plate 115: SLS special from Birmingham at Swindon, 7^th September 1958.  First coach is a BSO.  It and the only other visible coach, probably a SO, are in crimson and cream.  Loco 3440

 

Steam Colour Portfolio Great Western Region Volume 1 – Keith R Pirt

·         Front cover: Unidentified train.  First coach is a lined maroon BSO, as are the two second class coaches behind it.  Loco 5025

·         Page 28: Paddington to Villa Park [is there such a station?] footex on Hatton bank, March 1962.  [According to Wikipedia the date was 10^th March and the fixture the sixth round of the FA Cup.  Tottenham Hotspur 2 Aston Villa 0.  Spurs went on to win the Cup] The leading BSO is in lined maroon, followed by an SO in chocolate and cream and at least five others in maroon, punctuated by a refreshment car.  Loco 5007

·         Page 42: A special working off the Reading line at Basingstoke, April 1960.  The BSO leading the train is, like the rest of it, in lined maroon.  It carries what appears to be a blank roofboard.   Loco 4974 carrying reporting number X25

 

Steam Colour Portfolio Great Western Region Volume 2 – Keith R Pirt

·         Page 3: A down, late afternoon, express on Hatton Bank, October 1961.  Of the 7 Mark 1s in the formation one is in crimson and cream, the others lined maroon.  The first is a BSO, with a blank roofboard, the second a CK and the remainder indistinct.  Loco 7008. If this is a service train the presence of the BSO, cleaner than the other coaches so possibly very new, may be due to it being the nearest available substitute for a defective BSK.  There are no other clues, least of all a reporting number

·         Page 13: Banbury to Shrewsbury footex at Hatton bank, November 1961. [Wikipedia: 4^th November, 1^st round, FA Cup. Shrewsbury Town 7, Banbury Spencer 1] The BSO is the second vehicle with brake end inwards.  Possibly the last vehicle, 11^th or 12^th, is in crimson and cream with the rest in lined maroon. Loco 6911 with garish headboard

·         Page 25: Down express for Wolverhampton LL at Hatton Bank, August 1961. The first two coaches of the 12 coach rake are a CK and an SK, probably for strengthening. The third coach is a BSO.  Three coaches are still in crimson and cream, the remainder lined maroon.  Loco 5025.

·         Page 77: Up Cathedrals Express near Ascott-under-Wychwood, June 1962. The first two vehicles are a BSO (W9276) and an RB in chocolate and cream. The remainder of the set is in lined maroon save for one in chocolate and cream, only two months after the decision to abandon this livery was announced. Loco 7007

 

The quest continues.  Next under the spotlight will be Dick Blenkinsop's other books.  Meanwhile my street cred is feeling distinctly bruised with the revelations above about BSOs in service trains.

 

Chris

[50A55B]

Hi Phil,

   You could make a BFK from a Bachmann BSK and FK, here's my BFK made from a Kitmaster BSK and RFO, which proves the theory, the latter has the same spacing and number of large windows as a FK, in fact i've made a fair few Kitmaster style FKs from RFOs.

 

CIMG5221.JPG

CIMG5222.JPG

 

Bringing the thread back on topic, here's a BSO, using the same Kitmaster parts.

 

 

CIMG5217.JPG

CIMG5218.JPG

 

In fact using three donor Kitmasters, 2x BSK and one FK, I managed to squeeze out three new vehicles with no waste! This doesn't often happen with conversions, usually lots of bits are left over. So the three donors produced BFK, BSO and this one below, a BCK (count the large windows and sets of double doors in the donors,and you can just do it). Now obviously it's only old nutters like me that still mess around with the 50 year old Kitmasters, you don't need to make a BCK out of Bachmann bits, now you don't need to make a BSO, but a couple of coaches to make a BFK is still worthwhile.

                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

 

CIMG5219.JPG

CIMG5220.JPG

Nice results, Brian. Which source did you use for the maroon finish? All the paints I have tried look too 'cherry' to my eye, those look a nice match for the Bachmann shade.

[Phil Bullock]

Many thanks Brian

 

Wonderful work as always

 

To avoid hijacking this thread further could we continue discussions on http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89787-modelling-trains-of-mk1-stock-whats-missing/page-4

 

please?
 

Kind regards

 

Phil

 

[keefer]

regarding ScR BSOs here's a nice pic of a ScotRail one (presumably they could also be Scotrail or plain): http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p189779447/hb90538c#hb90538c

 

but completely forgot about the more colourful kind: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p189779447/hb90538c#h56a9aab

 

IIRC didn't the Harburn(?) Ltd. Ed. WH stock erroneously include a BCK as it was the closest to the missing BSO? And the Modelzone RTC coach which was also a BCK in place of BSO?

[Brian Kirby]

Nice results, Brian. Which source did you use for the maroon finish? All the paints I have tried look too 'cherry' to my eye, those look a nice match for the Bachmann shade.

Thanks 50A, ironically the non-cherry looking paint was from an old tin of Cherry Scale Models stuff, not sure you can get it anymore? It's also cellulose, which is well dodgy on plastic bodies, had to use a rather dry mix, doesn't flake off though!      BK

[Signaller69]

Out of interest what was the score datewise for removing the end steps? Found a photo of a BSO in April 1962 without end steps (Possibly E9289 which features widely - plate 11, "Scottish Branch Lines 1955-1965" among others), whilst others still had them at least up to 1965.

Was it something done at heavy overhaul visits?

Thanks,

Martyn.

[chrisf]

As promised, details of pics featuring BSOs in Dick Blenkinsop's books.  Browsing through his photographs was a pretty good way of spending an afternoon!  I have the book "Western Cameraman 1951 – 1962" w which is a compendium of books previously published by OPC [titles in italics].  The pages are not numbered.

 

Shadows of the Great Western

·         Plate not numbered: One of four football specials from London to Birmingham [FA Cup semi-final at Villa Park. Manchester United 1 Tottenham Hotspur 0] climbs Hatton Bank, 17^th March 1956. The first vehicle is a BSO with brake end inwards. The whole train is liveried in crimson and cream. The fourth and fifth vehicles are not MK 1s and may be catering vehicles. Loco 7030

 

Echoes of the Great Western

·         Plate 38: A special train returning from Swindon to Birmingham climbs Hatton Bank, 18^th June 1957. The BSO is the first vehicle with brake end inwards. The whole train is in crimson and cream livery. Loco 3440

·         Plate 44: A Boy Scouts special [Acton Ealing Hanwell Jamboree special according to the striking headboard] from London to Sutton Coldfield passes Fosse Box, 11^th August 1957. The BSO is the first vehicle of the train liveried throughout in crimson and cream. Loco 6961

·         Plate 74: SLS special returning from Swindon to Birmingham Snow Hill between Leamington and Warwick, 1^st September 1957. The BSO is the first of 7 coaches uniform in crimson and cream. Loco 3440

·         Plate 78: An up West Country express enters Sonning Cutting, 7^th September 1957. The BSO is the leading vehicle and has a blank roofboard. All but the fourth coach, which is not a Mk 1, are in crimson and cream.  Loco 4708

 

Reflections of the Great Western

·         Plate 26: Unidentified up express at Laira, 23^rd May 1958. The BSO in crimson and cream heads a rake of lined maroon stock. Locos 6800 piloted by 7909

·         Plate 44: An excursion from Exeter to Penzance organised by Amateur Photographer climbs Dainton bank, 25^th May 1958. The leading BSO and the five other visible coaches are in crimson and cream. Loco 3440 with reporting number 021

·         Plate 45: A Sunday excursion from Plymouth to Bristol emerges from Dainton Tunnel, 25^th May 1958. A crimson and cream BSO with a roofboard leads a rake of lined maroon stock. Loco 7022 piloted by 7813

·         Plate 52: A return excursion from Bristol to Plymouth, seemingly the same set as depicted in plate 45, passes Cowley Bridge Junction, 25^th May 1958. The BSO in crimson and cream leads a rake of lined maroon stock. Loco 7022 carries a headboard “City of Plymouth Holiday Express” which may be misleading as Holiday Expresses ran Mondays to Fridays!

·         Plate 64: A SLS excursion from Birmingham to Swindon pauses at Gloucester, 7^th September 1958. The BSO and the other five visible coaches are in crimson and cream livery. Loco 4900

 

Silhouettes of the Great Western

·         Plate 8: A Festiniog Railway Special passes the junction for Llangollen just south of Ruabon, 30^th April 1960. Of the nine coaches in the set, four are Mk 1 including the leading BSO and the rest are of GW parentage. All but the fifth, which is a restaurant car in crimson and cream, are lined maroon. Loco 1021

·         Plate 15: The up Cambrian Coast Express passes Southam Road and Harbury, 6^th May 1960. Attached to the front of the almost entirely chocolate and cream set is a crimson and cream BSO. Loco 6004, reporting number 049

·         Plate 18: An up Ian Allan special passes Little Somerford running 15 minutes ahead of time, 14^th May 1960. The set led by a BSO comprises seven coaches all lined maroon except the fourth which is of GW design in crimson and cream. Loco 6000, reporting number X05.

·         Plate 21: An unidentified train takes the South Wales line at Wootton Bassett, 14^th May 1960. The BSO is the first vehicle and carries a roofboard. Apart from the third coach (chocolate and cream) and the seventh (probably crimson and cream) all coaches are lined maroon. Loco 4094

·         Plate 104: The 08.35 Bournemouth West – Wolverhampton passes Lapworth troughs, 17^th March 1962. The first vehicle and maybe the last are BSOs and all seven coaches are in lined maroon. Loco 5025

 

This does not exhaust my library ...

 

Chris

 

EDIT - a few lines got missed out of the copy and paste

Edited October 29, 2016 by chrisf

[chrisf]

Hi Chris, you don't happen to have sample consist details of how these WR excursion sets were made up?

 

I stumbled across this in the Railway Observer for June 1959.  It is part of a report of an RCTS tour:

 

"The Brunel Centenarian [on 2^nd May 1959] was formed of part of a WR excursion set (as yet unnumbered) standard BSOs 9268/9 and SOs 4771/4/7/8, with cafeteria car W9662W, formerly an articulated kitchen car.  The effect was marred by the four SOs being lined maroon (they are the latest of their kind on the WR) and the other three in old BR red and cream, with the paint on both the BSOs peeling badly."

 

HTH

 

Chris

[Downendian]

Resurrecting this thread, but I hope not off thread too much.

I've just bought a Bachmann brand new 2017 release diagram 71 FO from eBay.

Edit : Hornby are releasing the diag 73 thanks for pointing out the error Phil!

 

I had no idea Bachmann were doing these as well, or have I just been hiding under a stone for too long?

Neil

Edited May 15, 2017 by Downendian

[Phil Bullock]

Welcome Neil!

 

Only issue for me is....the number of dia 71 FOs - a grand total of 3 IIRC!

 

Bring on the Hornby dia 73 and make it a good un please....

 

Phil

[Market65]

I think there may be a bit of confusion here. That at Rails is the Hornby model that is  available for pre order.. Diagram 71 is the redesignated RFO's, that have been in Bachmann's range for a number of years now. It is Diagram  73 that Hornby have announced.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.