Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[Waverley West]

Thanks for that information.  You'd think they would have learned a few lessons about those couplings!.  No excuse for fitting them to the 87s - after all, their HSTs power cars have rigid couplings which work well when pushing. 

 

I went to great lengths to point out to Paul Isles the troubles that modellers have had with Hornby's close-coupling mechanism, sending him links to threads on this forum and detailed descriptions of my own problems and my own views as to how to solve the problems (put the coupler on the bogie in most cases). He said he was completely unaware of the problems and promised to look into it. Seems like the whole issue has just been quietly forgotten or ignored, which is extremely disappointing.

 

With all the problems being experienced with Hornby's new Class 800s, I wonder whether they ever test-run any rolling stock except on that nice and simple code 100 roundy-roundy layout they always show in the videos.

 

I've pre-ordered a couple of 87s, so I hope they don't cause problems. In my experience, the Hornby mechanism causes fewer problems on shorter wheelbase locos (think 31 versus 50 or 56), so there is some hope. I'll be looking to use the 87 in both push and pull mode though and the only other Hornby loco I've managed to do that with is the HST with its rigid coupling.

 

Disappointing. I was really hoping Hornby had turned over a new leaf but I wish I'd waited before pre-ordering those 87s now. I don't usually pre-order new releases.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Waverley West

[letterspider]

No they won't be doing the Bulgarian versions. Quite simple, it will not appeal to people in OO gauge and they are not going to waste money on an HO scale model.

 

Very nice pic. Perhaps this is somthing that will be offered by Olivias Trains?

[Pete the Elaner]

I went to great lengths to point out to Paul Isles the troubles that modellers have had with Hornby's close-coupling mechanism, sending him links to threads on this forum and detailed descriptions of my own problems and my own views as to how to solve the problems (put the coupler on the bogie in most cases). He said he was completely unaware of the problems and promised to look into it. Seems like the whole issue has just been quietly forgotten or ignored, which is extremely disappointing.

It is disappointing to hear that a major manufacturer has not sought out feedback or is refusing to admit that they are aware of an issue.

I would have preferred to hear something like "We understand there is an issue but delays are expensive. We are looking at a better solution but can only do so much re-designing/re-tooling. We had to draw a line somewhere to get the model released".

[G-BOAF]

Sprung cam coupling fine if used with Roco or Hornby rigid coupling (R8220 etc). Indeed for pull-push this is more robust anyway.

BUT having a rigid/close coupled loco also requires similar cam arrangement on the rolling stock - i.e. new close coupled Mk3 coaches!!!

[VXDH92]

Thanks, someone told me that they had production samples on the stand.

Hi MGR Hooper,

 

They definitely didn't have any on display at Ally Pally. When I spoke to the chap, he sort of made out that they had forgotten to bring them!

 

The production versions are still due April and July respectively.

[ThaneofFife]

well from the comments above hopefully its just a case of swapping the couplings.

[adb968008]

Okay, so I am assuming that all the models you listed are from the early 2000s?

 

Sorry mistaken again.

 

Hornby R3083 TCDD 8f and was released in 2012.

 

Those were the days when a 100 notes was often the high end on the market.

 

The price of R3083 was £138 in 2012, significantly higher than £100 and higher than the RRP of locomotives such as the Bulleid, Patriot and Clan at that time.

It also incurred VAT and Import duty from Turkey, as it was an overseas exclusive, bringing it in at £160.

 

(As an FYI that class 66 HGK was £100 in year 2001... the standard Lima UK version was c£50).

 

Today we're in a situation where people want high-detailed, highly-functional models at competitive prices which have doubled since those listed models were released. Loco-specific detail ha become the norm and people want loco-specific details.

 

Nothing has changed since 2012, except the price. The same 8f tooling as used for the 8f in 2012 was used for 48045 in 2018, except 48045 / 8035. The rrp on those is £149 and is available for £114.

 

Modellers might want all kinds of things, but the proses 8f demonstrates that:

A. They don’t always get it

B. Don’t care, as it sold out at lightening speed despite having to trawl a Turkish language website to find it, and import it to the UK

C. We’re prepared to pay more for it, over double the 2012 price of a BR 8f

D.didnt care it wasn’t 100% bees knees authentic reproduction either (the reverser is wrong side and the smokebox has a shed code).

 

I don’t see the world differently in 2018.. Hornby could knock out a Bulgarian 87, at a higher price with minor inaccuracies as a limited edition and I don’t doubt people will still buy it.

 

For the same reasons, the Same was true with those Lima 59’s in the 1990’s (which was accurate, probably more so than R3083) as it was by people bought the Triang L1 with its Midland 4f tender in the 1960’s... because nothing has changed...that reason is..

If you want one, it will be the closest rendition of one your going to get at that time, take it or leave it. History shows, despite protestations.. people will take it, as the alternative is to stand there without.

 

Bringing us right upto date, I would wager this inaccurate little locomotive is probably Hattons best selling P class... even if it’s wholly historically inaccurate on any layout other than a preserved one.

 

What modellers say, and what they do... are completely different, and that has not changed in decades.

Edited March 28, 2018 by adb968008

[E3109]

Don't wanna thread-drift this topic to Bulgaria particularly, but just to mention that I saw plenty of enthusiasts out and about, taking photos and so on.

Maybe because of the snow, must've clocked at least two dozen people photographing the train I was on on the narrow gauge Dobrinishte route, which admittedly very scenic.

And about the same number of 'cranks' on the bits of main line that I travelled over.

 

Not suggesting the market is anything like the UK, far from it: but even the guy who let me pan up 87020 was a massive railway enthusiast, both real and model versions.

 

A 'Limby' 87 in Bulgarian liveries would sell pretty well over there I'm sure, same for the old Hornby 86 (and a Floyd version for Hungary, no doubt).

I don't think they'd be too bothered about the scale at the mo.

 

After all,those hideous CIE renditions that were produced in the 1970s sold well enough in Ireland at the time, presumably? (Hornby Hymek/Lima 33)

 

Just my two pennorth!

[dpearce]

Anyone got an idea of release dates aside from just "April"?

[VXDH92]

Anyone got an idea of release dates aside from just "April"?

No, the Hornby chap at Ally Pally just read off of a sheet when I asked when they are due, so still just April. Should see them within a few weeks!

[Mike at C&M]

We have been asked to trial the new Hornby trade portal, and the information thereon suggests the following dates when the models are expected to arrive at Hornby:

     R3580        87.035 in BR Blue                          April 18th

     R3582        87.010 in InterCity Swallow            April 25th

     R3656        87.019 in Virgin                              July 16th.

 

These are expected dates into Hornby, and subject to change for any number of reasons. Retailers should see them a few days after these dates.

[MGR Hooper!]

Hi MGR Hooper,

 

They definitely didn't have any on display at Ally Pally. When I spoke to the chap, he sort of made out that they had forgotten to bring them!

 

The production versions are still due April and July respectively.

What a pity....but thanks for the clarification.

[MGR Hooper!]

Sorry mistaken again.

 

Hornby R3083 TCDD 8f and was released in 2012.

 

The price of R3083 was £138 in 2012, significantly higher than £100 and higher than the RRP of locomotives such as the Bulleid, Patriot and Clan at that time.

It also incurred VAT and Import duty from Turkey, as it was an overseas exclusive, bringing it in at £160.

 

(As an FYI that class 66 HGK was £100 in year 2001... the standard Lima UK version was c£50).

 

Nothing has changed since 2012, except the price. The same 8f tooling as used for the 8f in 2012 was used for 48045 in 2018, except 48045 / 8035. The rrp on those is £149 and is available for £114.

 

Modellers might want all kinds of things, but the proses 8f demonstrates that:

A. They don’t always get it

B. Don’t care, as it sold out at lightening speed despite having to trawl a Turkish language website to find it, and import it to the UK

C. We’re prepared to pay more for it, over double the 2012 price of a BR 8f

D.didnt care it wasn’t 100% bees knees authentic reproduction either (the reverser is wrong side and the smokebox has a shed code).

 

I don’t see the world differently in 2018.. Hornby could knock out a Bulgarian 87, at a higher price with minor inaccuracies as a limited edition and I don’t doubt people will still buy it.

 

For the same reasons, the Same was true with those Lima 59’s in the 1990’s (which was accurate, probably more so than R3083) as it was by people bought the Triang L1 with its Midland 4f tender in the 1960’s... because nothing has changed...that reason is..

If you want one, it will be the closest rendition of one your going to get at that time, take it or leave it. History shows, despite protestations.. people will take it, as the alternative is to stand there without.

 

Bringing us right upto date, I would wager this inaccurate little locomotive is probably Hattons best selling P class... even if it’s wholly historically inaccurate on any layout other than a preserved one.2099B51C-E690-4830-810C-1D508CD8BB57.jpeg

 

What modellers say, and what they do... are completely different, and that has not changed in decades.

Thanks for the corrections there...But I still don't think it makes any sense for Hornby in their current situation. Hornby have better Class 87s to release at this point in time than to do a limited edition of a locomotive based elsewhere.

 

A 1:87 scale version with the correct details made by any of the European companies (Hornby Intl. inc.) would make a lot more sense.

 

They need more BR Blue, InterCity and other ones for now.

[adb968008]

Thanks for the corrections there...But I still don't think it makes any sense for Hornby in their current situation. Hornby have better Class 87s to release at this point in time than to do a limited edition of a locomotive based elsewhere.

 

A 1:87 scale version with the correct details made by any of the European companies (Hornby Intl. inc.) would make a lot more sense.

 

They need more BR Blue, InterCity and other ones for now.

I think we agree there,however I suspect that one of Europe’s producers may ultimately do a HO scale class 87. I think European producers find the UK interesting but OO puts them off the UK market, and the lack of suitable UK locomotives working in Europe brings a separation, the class 87 could be another one to cross that gap (class 66/Eurostar aside as this has been done in HO), however the Western European bias of the manufacturers would still pose a barrier.

Though in the meantime if you feel like work, a class 81 was recently done as a static model in HO...which is quite definitely an odd one out inHO.

Edited March 29, 2018 by adb968008

[MGR Hooper!]

I think we agree there,however I suspect that one of Europe’s producers may ultimately do a HO scale class 87. I think European producers find the UK interesting but OO puts them off the UK market, and the lack of suitable UK locomotives working in Europe brings a separation, the class 87 could be another one to cross that gap (class 66/Eurostar aside as this has been done in HO), however the Western European bias of the manufacturers would still pose a barrier.

Though in the meantime if you feel like work, a class 81 was recently done as a static model in HO...which is quite definitely an odd one out inHO.

I bought one of those Class 81's and a suitable motorized unit to convert it from static to running. If that's a success I'll be following up with the Class 87, Class 87, Class 89, Class 90, Class 91 and Class 92 as resin cast kits. The Bulgarian versions will surely be covered when I do the Class 87.

[jjb1970]

About 30 years ago one of the big European dealers in the UK made an effort to persuade Roco to make British outline HO models. At that time the UK was apparently a more significant market for the European producers than we might have thought (it seemed to decline markedly as OO improved) and given the monumental gulf in standards between British OO and European HO at that time the dealer in question really believed Roco could've won many over to HO. Unfortunately the company disagreed and it never happened but its an interesting "what if".

[adb968008]

About 30 years ago one of the big European dealers in the UK made an effort to persuade Roco to make British outline HO models. At that time the UK was apparently a more significant market for the European producers than we might have thought (it seemed to decline markedly as OO improved) and given the monumental gulf in standards between British OO and European HO at that time the dealer in question really believed Roco could've won many over to HO. Unfortunately the company disagreed and it never happened but its an interesting "what if".

I recall that period, it did produce some cross channel wagons though... cargowaggons, container flats and of course Eurostar all in HO. Additionally Heljan joined the UK market in OO.

There is though a European producer or two still manufacturing for the UK market, just commissions to order only.

Edited March 29, 2018 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

I recall that period, it did produce some cross channel wagons though... cargowaggons, container flats and of course Eurostar all in HO. Additionally Heljan joined the UK market in OO.

There is though a European producer or two still manufacturing for the UK market, just commissions to order only.

 

Wasn't the HO Eurostar Jouef? Roco certainly did some HO wagons that were suitable for use on UK layouts. ViTrains did their OO models for the Hobby Company (?) but when their commissioner went down the tubes ViTrains didn't show much inclination to enter the UK market for their own account which was a shame as in some ways their Class 47 is still the best version.

[John ks]

No completely sure but I think Hornby's first Eurostar was a HO rebadged Jouef

John

[adb968008]

No completely sure but I think Hornby's first Eurostar was a HO rebadged Jouef

John

Yes it was. Hornby took the Jouef Eurostar and sold it in their own boxes before tooling their own.

 

Jouef also did a variety of channel tunnel related HO vans in that period. I understood Jouef was planning a HO class 92.

Edited April 2, 2018 by adb968008

[VXDH92]

87 now due in May

[jonathan452]

87 now due in May

And I presume for the usual (below) reasons.

 

https://www.chinaimportal.com/blog/chinese-new-year-impacts-import-business/

3 - Getting Operations Back to Normal Takes Time.

Eventually, everything gets back to normal. Hopefully. The truth is that many manufacturers struggle to get back to a normal mode of operations in the weeks after the Chinese New Year.

The primary reason for this being workers who simply don’t return to their former employers, without any prior announcement.

Depending on the number of workers departing in secret, it can cause severe disruptions across the supply chain.

Finding, and training, a new batch of workers provides new challenges of its own. Skilled workers are, to a certain degree, replaced by rookies.

This is one, of two reasons, why the risk of quality issues is at its peak right after the end of the Chinese New Year. Every trade takes its own time to master.

This is just one, of many reasons, why you should never relax your quality assurance and inspection procedures.

The other reason for an increase in Post-CNY quality issues, as hinted above, is the large number of orders a (moderately successful) supplier, and its subcontractors have stacked up.

This may include a backlog of orders from early December and onward, depending on the production time needed. This is stretching the suppliers’ capabilities to its maximum.

Plenty of suppliers, even those who are not so busy, just use the general Post-CNY stress as an excuse for being slow and providing poor service. That’s worth mentioning too.

 

5 - CNY 2018 Timeline

• November: Confirm when your supplier is closing and reopening for the CNY

• December 10th: Last day to place an order before the CNY

• February 2nd: Some suppliers and subcontractors stop production, causing disruption in the supply chain

• February 9th: Many workers have already left the factories. Sales reps, engineers and management may still be around for a couple of days more.

• February 13th: All personnel has left the factory

• February 16th: Chinese New Years Eve

• March 6th: Employees, mostly sales reps and some engineers, start to come back. Some may have extended holidays.

• March 13th: Most employees, including assembly line workers, are back in the factories.

• March 28th: Operations are getting back to normal after the Post-CNY disruption.

 

EDIT - Another interesting read-:

What happens in Chinese factories during the Chinese New Year? - http://www.thesourcingblog.com/effects-of-the-chinese-new-year-on-manufacturing-part-1/

Edited April 13, 2018 by jonathan452

[E3109]

I just had a thought.

The compartment roof panels are translucent fibreglass on 87s and 86s. I wonder if you can see any light through them at night, if the corridor lighting is on.

 

And if so, is there anyone brave enough to model it? Manufacturer or purchaser.

[MGR Hooper!]

87 now due in May

Thank God, more time to save. Hope the Virgin one is delayed a bit.

[adb968008]

I wonder if the wheels are having difficulty in restarting in China this year..

 

87’s delayed, the 102xx’s moved back, as have some of Bachmanns range. The p’s and Barclays are a few weeks behind and word is mum on the B4’s and Heljans 07.

Seems like China’s model railway factories are too busy with other things.