Channel 4 model railway challenge

[andyram]

I also enjoyed tonight’s episode. I also enjoyed the trestle bridge build. It seems young Cameron has shone again with his servicing technique which helped the loco catch up some of the lost miles.

[Pacific231G]

I would like to see it cover different areas of the hobby, and not just British standard gauge, but some narrow gauge and something foreign. Maybe as part of one of the special tests.Just building a layout stage be by, would be far too boring, and I think it might be less interesting to non hobby people. It is the variety in the current TV program that makes it more intersting for more people.

What used to be in the field of "special interest videos" are unlikely of themselves to attract a wider audience though they might reach enough devotees to make an online channel feasible. I know of one devoted to the equestrian world  Horse&Rider TV brings you the best equestrian riding, training and management videos for you and your horse! but the rather specialist audience for that tends to be above average in prosperity so is particularly attractive to advertisers and sponsors.

 

It's worth noting that there are no regular series on TV about gardening, fishing, sailing, photography, computing, amateur perfomance arts, nor of course model making. A few programmes apparently targetting special interests do exist- but I doubt if the Sky at Night's audience are all amateur astronomers- but they can bring in things with a wider audience interest such as space science, gravitational wave research and the wonders of the universe in general and I suppose Time Team taps into a general interest in our past.

 

For "mainstream television"  (BBC, ITV, Four and Five with their sub channels) the trick would be to think of a fairly popular leisure time pursuiit that leaves you completely cold and come up with a TV series based on it that would engage you and that you would be likely to watch and keep watching over umpteen episodes.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Arthur]

Model Railway themed Big Brother. Blinkered advocates of several gauges and standards with strong opinions on the ‘era’ descriptions used by Hornby, a mix of kit building fanatics and RTR devotees, locked in a room for several weeks, give them Modelling mags in plastic bags.....

 

TV Gold; tears, tantrums, passion, blood, snot, tragedy, murder.....

 

Railway Modelling on Prime Time TV,....BOOM.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Arthur

[Junctionmad]

Model Railway themed Big Brother. Blinkered advocates of several gauges and standards with strong opinions on the ‘era’ descriptions used by Hornby, a mix of kit building fanatics and RTR devotees, locked in a room for several weeks, give them Modelling mags in plastic bags.....

TV Gold; tears, tantrums, passion, blood, snot, tragedy, murder.....

Railway Modelling on Prime Time TV,....BOOM.

God, magine 00-SF advocates in the same room as P4 , great tv.

[Steamport Southport]

 

It's worth noting that there are no regular series on TV about gardening, fishing, sailing, photography, computing, amateur perfomance arts, nor of course model making. A few programmes apparently targetting special interests do exist- but I doubt if the Sky at Night's audience are all amateur astronomers- but they can bring in things with a wider audience interest such as space science, gravitational wave research and the wonders of the universe in general and I suppose Time Team taps into a general interest in our past.

 

 

Probably because most of those have been done to death already. Even fishing, they had live competitive fishing on SKY Sports at one point. It was as bad as it sounds. 

 

 

 

Jason

[newbryford]

God, magine 00-SF advocates in the same room as P4 , great tv.

 

And don't even think about kettles v paraffin cans.............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[rockershovel]

What’s all this about “no gardening series”? Monty Don, Charlie Dimmock, coverage of the RHS, Gardeners Question Time on the radio? Country File regularly shows pieces about arable farming, which must have an informed audience in the hundreds but it’s a very popular programme.

 

You don’t have to look far to find series about fishing, either.

 

Time Team eventually succumbed to the combined onslaught of luvvies and bean-counters, a “perfect storm” in TV terms, but for a very long time its formula of high production values, British landscapes and a well-developed knockabout formula involving some well-defined characters who actually knew what they were talking about, was very successful

Edited January 22, 2018 by rockershovel

[Guest]

Are we talking about the C4 programme here or have we wandered a bit?

[chriswright03]

Bit?

[chris p bacon]

Model Railway themed Big Brother. Blinkered advocates of several gauges and standards with strong opinions on the ‘era’ descriptions used by Hornby, a mix of kit building fanatics and RTR devotees, locked in a room for several weeks,   An Evening.   give them Modelling mags in plastic bags.....

 

TV Gold; tears, tantrums, passion, blood, snot, tragedy, murder.....

 

 

This is 'Club night' for some us....

[Phil Parker]

Time Team eventually succumbed to the combined onslaught of luvvies and bean-counters, a “perfect storm” in TV terms, but for a very long time its formula of high production values, British landscapes and a well-developed knockabout formula involving some well-defined characters who actually knew what they were talking about, was very successful

 

Time Team is an interesting comparison. Talk to most archaeologists and they hated it just as much as some hate Biggest Little Railway - for the same reasons, especially the over-simplification of a dig and the constant need for jeopardy.

[45156]

Episode 3 was not at all bad, but again, we didn't see too much of our Jenny on screen - in fact so far team D has not seen a lot of screen time when compared to some of the others.  As Jenny has indicated, they had the challenge of Fort Augustus, and its road system, so hopefully that will restore the balance.

 

I am really enjoying the engineering challenges, and the solutions.  And perhaps that is what is all that this show is about in the end - not the track, not the personality clashes (these are common in all reality TV and are what the producers want anyway), and not whether this is a model railway, toy train, or whatever. 

 

I do wish that they would stop with the tenet that the Victorians couldn't do this, and go more towards wouldn't do this - the fact that the West Highland and Highland lines were built over a variety of terrains including Rannoch Moor, proves that they had the ability, but spanning the Great Glen was commercially not viable.

 

Onwards to Inverness then - when do we see the spiral which appears in some trailers, and also the use of the funicular incline?

[PatB]

The trouble with TV, as a medium for specialist interests, is that it seems to be very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to make a program with broad enough appeal to get respectable ratings that gives more than a magazine style superficial overview of the subject. Certainly, in nearly 50 years of viewing, I'm yet to see a program on a subject in which I'm seriously interested that tells me anything fundamentaI that I didn't already know. I'd be surprised if this wasn't also the case in other fields. However, that doesn't mean that I haven't found such programs interesting for other reasons or, at least, entertaining and enjoyable. I just don't expect that I, personally, will be particularly educated by them. Anything that's really going to go deeper than I already have as a result of my own interest would inevitably be fodder for the graveyard slots once (still?) occupied by the Open University .

 

But that's  not the point really. The target audience for any specialist interest TV program is not the enthusiasts or experts (who are quite likely to watch it anyway, if only to have a good moan about its inadequacy), but Joe and Jane Average who might be largely or entirely unaware of the subject until they're channel hopping and catch a glimpse of something unusual enough to catch their attention. Which, let's face it, probably isn't someone explaining P4 wheel and track standards. Seeing a small steam engine rattling along interspersed with shots of Highland scenry might do it though.

[Hroth]

Episode 3 was not at all bad, but again, we didn't see too much of our Jenny on screen - in fact so far team D has not seen a lot of screen time when compared to some of the others.  As Jenny has indicated, they had the challenge of Fort Augustus, and its road system, so hopefully that will restore the balance.

 

I am really enjoying the engineering challenges, and the solutions.  And perhaps that is what is all that this show is about in the end - not the track, not the personality clashes (these are common in all reality TV and are what the producers want anyway), and not whether this is a model railway, toy train, or whatever. 

 

I do wish that they would stop with the tenet that the Victorians couldn't do this, and go more towards wouldn't do this - the fact that the West Highland and Highland lines were built over a variety of terrains including Rannoch Moor, proves that they had the ability, but spanning the Great Glen was commercially not viable.

 

Onwards to Inverness then - when do we see the spiral which appears in some trailers, and also the use of the funicular incline?

Yes, it wasn't that the "Victorians couldn't do it", more a case of one group of Victorians (the promoters of the Invergarry and Fort Augustus railway and the West Highland Railway) wanted to do it and another group of Victorians (the Highland railway, already at Inverness) didn't want them to.  Lots of money was wasted with Parliamentary bills and lawyers fees and the Highland got its way.

 

It would have been a pretty route but had it actually been built, it may well have closed for passenger traffic before WW1 and goods traffic soon after WW2. At least the remaining formation would have provided an easier route for the model railway.

 

The Victorians couldn't do it is just a lazy shorthand for "we can't be bothered explaining properly at least once why a railway wasn't built here"!

 

edit for a minor typo

Edited January 22, 2018 by Hroth

[298]

Probably because most of those have been done to death already. Even fishing, they had live competitive fishing on SKY Sports at one point. It was as bad as it sounds. 

 

 

 

Jason

Metal detecting has had three comedy series written about it so far. Since anything less than "A Joy of Train Sets" style factual programme would be hailed as a lost opportunity, why not just write a drama/comedy about it instead...?

[PatB]

Metal detecting has had three comedy series written about it so far. Since anything less than "A Joy of Train Sets" style factual programme would be hailed as a lost opportunity, why not just write a drama/comedy about it instead...?

 

Not a completely daft idea. In spite of a total lack of interest in physical sports I thoroughly enjoyed the ABC's comedy-drama about a struggling AFL (Aussie Rules football) team, that screened here a few months ago so it's not impossible to engage an unlikely audience.

[Chris M]

The trouble with TV, as a medium for specialist interests, is that it seems to be very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to make a program with broad enough appeal to get respectable ratings that gives more than a magazine style superficial overview of the subject. Certainly, in nearly 50 years of viewing, I'm yet to see a program on a subject in which I'm seriously interested that tells me anything fundamentaI that I didn't already know. I'd be surprised if this wasn't also the case in other fields. However, that doesn't mean that I haven't found such programs interesting for other reasons or, at least, entertaining and enjoyable. I just don't expect that I, personally, will be particularly educated by them. Anything that's really going to go deeper than I already have as a result of my own interest would inevitably be fodder for the graveyard slots once (still?) occupied by the Open University .

 

But that's  not the point really. The target audience for any specialist interest TV program is not the enthusiasts or experts (who are quite likely to watch it anyway, if only to have a good moan about its inadequacy), but Joe and Jane Average who might be largely or entirely unaware of the subject until they're channel hopping and catch a glimpse of something unusual enough to catch their attention. Which, let's face it, probably isn't someone explaining P4 wheel and track standards. Seeing a small steam engine rattling along interspersed with shots of Highland scenry might do it though.

There was a series about building a garden railway many years ago which I found informative. It was aired on one of the Discovery Channel and can be found on YouTube these days. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYdqgmYJKJx3lLZEfkrCwuQmkljnX0T3s I guess YouTube is where all the information on specialist interests is found now. In my experience people under 30 very rarely watch broadcast TV so that isn’t the way to get younger folk into the hobby.

[rockershovel]

Time Team is an interesting comparison. Talk to most archaeologists and they hated it just as much as some hate Biggest Little Railway - for the same reasons, especially the over-simplification of a dig and the constant need for jeopardy.

I think it’s a general comment on “special interest” subjects. Hull Truck Theatre’s “Up and Under” has been consistently successful, but bears no real relationship to any amateur rugby tournament I’ve ever encountered, in either code. There’s a whole genre of utterly unrealistic “football films” in American cinema.

 

I knew someone who was associated with the Fred Dibnah oeuvre, who has some very funny stories about Fred’s views of what he should be doing - particularly, about actually driving his decrepit Land Rover any distance, which Fred appeared to regard as essential and the film crew didn’t.

[rue_d_etropal]

For a successful TV program(mainstream) to appeal to not just a specialised group there has to be fun and drama, which is why some situations that crop up, may not be planned, but not as much time is spent preventing them , as you would expect, as long as safety is not compromised. 

This is probably why challenges are more successful than pure competition, and therefore gets the better slots in TV schedule. 8pm on a Sunday evening is a very good slot, hence why programs such as Top Gear used it. Even with ability to watch programs when you want, online, there is still a large audience who will watch when programs are actually shown.

 

Does anyone know how they calculate audience figures, when many do watch online at different times?

[ejstubbs]

The Victorians couldn't do it is just a lazy shorthand for "we can't be bothered explaining properly at least once why a railway wasn't built here"!

 

They did explain it properly (if a bit quickly, blink-and-you'd-miss-it-style) in episode 2.  I didn't notice the "lazy shorthand" being repeated in episode 3 - but then I missed the first ten minutes or so (what happened with the viaduct, did it get washed away when the river rose or was it all OK?) and it may be part of the same introductory sequence they use for every episode.

 

The trestle bridge was impressive - but again I wasn't convinced by Mr Spooner's contribution.  His argument that Silver Lady couldn't negotiate a right-angle seemed a bit dubious.  Didn't they put turntables in on one of the other difficult sections (albeit he and Dick went along later and 'engineered' at least half of them out)?  And the segment about crossing the truss bridge over Laggan Locks clearly showed the loco negotiating a pretty damn tight 90° bend.  Given they only have to get the loco through once (and given some of the shenanigans they've resorted to elsewhere along the route - cough, the train ferry, cough - picking her up and turning her by hand would appear to be within their own rules!) I can only conclude that either Hadrian was being needlessly fussy, or 'someone' decided that they needed to extend the scope of the job part way through in order to inject a bit of drama into a job that was going all too smoothly.  These volunteer navvies sometimes seem to be altogether too competent!  (Old engineering adage: the trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.)

 

Episode 3 was not at all bad, but again, we didn't see too much of our Jenny on screen - in fact so far team D has not seen a lot of screen time when compared to some of the others.  As Jenny has indicated, they had the challenge of Fort Augustus, and its road system, so hopefully that will restore the balance.

 

Yes, I'm interested to see how they coped with that, especially since the track will presumably have had to have been left on site for a few days while the train caught up.

 

I will admit that I am finding the 'story' a bit confusing to follow - perhaps because the progress of the loco is so far behind the track laying and engineering.  The truss bridge was shown being constructed in episode 1, and they only to drive the loco over it in episode 3.  It's entirely unclear to me whether they were able to spend the intervening time finessing the design and construction, or if it had been sitting around in its as-originally-built state for N days until the driving team turned up.  Judging by the teaser at the end of episode 3 I assume we'll get to see the funicular in episode 4, when the track was being laid for it in episode 2.  It seems a bit disjointed; but maybe that's just me.  (I'd have been inclined to structure it around the progress of the loco, showing each tracklaying and engineering 'challenge' as a single flashback sequence when the loco approached the section in question.  It is, after all, the slow progress of the loco, not the track, that's putting the successful completion of the 'challenge' in jeopardy.)

 

I did enjoy seeing the party at the campsite - good to get some insight in to what the "navvies" got up to once they've ditched the hi-viz!

 

I agree that Cameron seems to be becoming a low-key star in the driving team.  (I have to say that driving in shifts doesn't actually sound too arduous to me, despite Dick's dramatic 'revelation' at the meeting.  It basically seems to consist of walking rather slowly and taking a break every 20 minutes or so!  Then again, maybe that's just me: I've done 12+ hour continuous walks in the Highlands a number of times so maybe I'm just used to it.)

 

I also agree with those who observed before that some of the interviews with the navvies seemed a bit intrusive.  OK, they probably agreed to do it but I still found it uncomfortable the way they kept the camera focused and running as the lassie choked up talking about her memories of her ex-commando granddad, for example.  They could at least have allowed her to "take a moment" before going on.

 

Overall, though, it's not too demanding Sunday evening viewing and I'll probably tune in for the last two episodes to pass the time if nothing else.

Edited January 22, 2018 by ejstubbs

[ejstubbs]

Does anyone know how they calculate audience figures, when many do watch online at different times?

 

Explanation from the horse's mouth linked from post #660 of this very thread.

[45156]

Well at least at the party we saw Jenny having a bop (and probably a bevvy or two?)

[Bristol_Rich]

 

 I will admit that I am finding the 'story' a bit confusing to follow - perhaps because the progress of the loco is so far behind the track laying and engineering.  The truss bridge was shown being constructed in episode 1, and they only to drive the loco over it in episode 3.  It's entirely unclear to me whether they were able to spend the intervening time finessing the design and construction, or if it had been sitting around in its as-originally-built state for N days until the driving team turned up.  Judging by the teaser at the end of episode 3 I assume we'll get to see the funicular in episode 4, when the track was being laid for it in episode 2.  It seems a bit disjointed; but maybe that's just me.  (I'd have been inclined to structure it around the progress of the loco, showing each tracklaying and engineering 'challenge' as a single flashback sequence when the loco approached the section in question.  It is, after all, the slow progress of the loco, not the track, that's putting the successful completion of the 'challenge' in jeopardy.)

It’s not just you...I’m thinking the same.

[Colin_McLeod]

It's not that complicated a story to follow.

[Pacific231G]

Yes, it wasn't that the "Victorians couldn't do it", more a case of one group of Victorians (the promoters of the Invergarry and Fort Augustus railway and the West Highland Railway) wanted to do it and another group of Victorians (the Highland railway, already at Inverness) didn't want them to.  Lots of money was wasted with Parliamentary bills and lawyers fees and the Highland got its way.

 

It would have been a pretty route but had it actually been built, it may well have closed for passenger traffic before WW1 and goods traffic soon after WW2. At least the remaining formation would have provided an easier route for the model railway.

 

The Victorians couldn't do it is just a lazy shorthand for "we can't be bothered explaining properly at least once why a railway wasn't built here"!

 

edit for a minor typo

I'm sure they explained that in prog 2 (or was it 3 I'm not taking notes)

In a way the Victorians couldn't do it is true; they couldn't do it because the costs were too high for any possible financial return and because of railway politics but I agree that it was a bit misleading to imply that the technical challenges were beyond them. I'd have thought the Great Glen a relatively straightforward route compared with many others as it's following a water course rather than crossing several of them.

 

The trestle was great but I was rather amused by Claire's dismissal of a suspension bridge asserting that "they are not suitable for railways".

 

When a very humble roadside tramway in deepest France encountered a not so humble gorge the result looks like a suspension bridge to me. . 

 

 

 

 

 

Par MOSSOT — Travail personnel, CC BY-SA 3.0,

 

This is the Viaduc des Rochers Noirs in the Correze. It's an interesting design developed by the former military engineer (like Dick Strawbridge)  Albert Gisclard where the suspensions from each tower overlap to give enough rigidity for a railway. The tramway closed in 1959 but I drove over it several times in the 1980s as it saved a long series of zigzags to get across the valley by road (and was a whole lot more fun. Apart from the viaduct itself, the approach road used the roadbed of the tramway included a couple of narrow gauge tunnels) . It was later relegated to a footbridge and is now completely closed though classed as a historic monument. I have travelled by train over another of Gisclard's suspension bridges on the Cerdagne line in the Pyrenees but it's a bit less dramatic than the Rochers Noirs. Sadly Gisclard was kiiled in 1909 during the commisioning of the Cerdagne bridge when a load testing train ran away down the line following a misunderstanding.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Pacific231G