Smart Meter = smart move?

[eastwestdivide]

I've not had LED bulbs yet, but from past experience of the CFL type they didn't last significantly longer than the Tungsten bulbs in the same locations (I would doubt even twice as long, let along 40 times). Perhaps they don't like being turned on and off frequently. Too early to say in the new house; there's just one Tungsten bulb on the stairs (lights up the stairs immediately in the dark and gets turned off when I'm at the bottom or top) the rest are CFL, Two of the latter have been replaced in 4 years.

I've been putting LEDs in as replacements for blown tungstens/dodgy CFLs for ages, ?over 5 years. Subjectively, I found the CFLs lasting longer than tungsten, but I've not had to replace any LEDs yet, and the quality of the light from them isn't deteriorating, unlike many CFLs, which seem to gradually deteriorate over time. 

I also find the quality of the light from the LEDs easier on the eye.

Edited April 14, 2017 by eastwestdivide

[Bill Radford]

The only costs that these "smart" meters save is the cost of meter readers. I would think that all houses built since the 70s have outside meters so why the necessity for estimated bills?

 

I queried some years back why my bill was estimated as I had seen the (outside) meter being read. I was told that it had been read by a sub-contracted company a week before the bill was prepared so the last week of the period had to be estimated!

[BG John]

That data can be used in any way you like. The meter will send it back to the meter operator, and you can then access it - usually via a website provided. How you access the internet (wifi, broadband, dial-up) is up to you. As long as you can see a website, you can access the data.

That's not the same as getting real time data straight from the meter, which could be useful for monitoring usage and acting on it. Will all suppliers actually put that data in a usable form on a web site anyway? Even if they do, how long after it actually happened, and will it be possible to download it automatically?

 

I monitor my usage as much as possible, and already do things like running the tumble drier overnight, as I'm on Economy 7. Having real time data potentially means that I could go a lot further with using energy efficiently, perhaps by automating some of it to suit my needs. Knowing that I used rather a lot on a Tuesday morning several weeks ago is pretty useless.

 

I know I could save energy by not having a tumble drier, but I live in wet West Wales, and save a lot of energy by only heating the parts of the house I use. Drying washing was becoming a real problem for much of the year, so after years of managing without one, I finally gave in.

[Baby Deltic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmS5pVEZHzg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dKcWOhj7C0

Edited April 14, 2017 by Baby Deltic

[Baby Deltic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpB1E92kk1M

[JohnR]

That's not the same as getting real time data straight from the meter, which could be useful for monitoring usage and acting on it. Will all suppliers actually put that data in a usable form on a web site anyway? Even if they do, how long after it actually happened, and will it be possible to download it automatically?

 

I monitor my usage as much as possible, and already do things like running the tumble drier overnight, as I'm on Economy 7. Having real time data potentially means that I could go a lot further with using energy efficiently, perhaps by automating some of it to suit my needs. Knowing that I used rather a lot on a Tuesday morning several weeks ago is pretty useless.

 

I know I could save energy by not having a tumble drier, but I live in wet West Wales, and save a lot of energy by only heating the parts of the house I use. Drying washing was becoming a real problem for much of the year, so after years of managing without one, I finally gave in.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I have been using Smart Metering as part of my job for nearly 10 years. You get Day+1 data, which is more than sufficient for most needs. And yes, the supplier DOES put it on a website - I am unaware of ANY utility company in the marketplace today that does not. 

[BG John]

As I said in my earlier post, I have been using Smart Metering as part of my job for nearly 10 years. You get Day+1 data, which is more than sufficient for most needs. And yes, the supplier DOES put it on a website - I am unaware of ANY utility company in the marketplace today that does not. 

But it still doesn't answer my question of whether I can have a cable connection to the meter to record the data myself. And even if it is available on a web site, can my computer automatically download it?

[Pacific231G]

I've not had LED bulbs yet, but from past experience of the CFL type they didn't last significantly longer than the Tungsten bulbs in the same locations (I would doubt even twice as long, let along 40 times). Perhaps they don't like being turned on and off frequently. Too early to say in the new house; there's just one Tungsten bulb on the stairs (lights up the stairs immediately in the dark and gets turned off when I'm at the bottom or top) the rest are CFL, Two of the latter have been replaced in 4 years.

That's odd unless your earlier CFLs were poor quality. I changed almost all of mine some years ago and, apart from what I'm saving in electricity, not having to drag the steps around the house all the time to change blown tungstens has been a real bonus. 

 

I don't have any LEDs for home lighting yet but do use them for photography and they run for hours on rechargable AAs from which you'd be lucky to get half an hour with an equivalent low voltage tungsten. I don't know what the spectral quality of the light from domestic LED lighting is like. They used to have a very notchy spectrum but the latest one I have can be smoothly adjusted from a colour temperature of  3150K  (a bit lower than tungsten) to 6300K (daylight is 5600K) Power consumption is 9watts for the same light as a 700watt tungsten.

I suspect that the first domestic LED I get will be for modelling.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Pacific231G

[JohnR]

But it still doesn't answer my question of whether I can have a cable connection to the meter to record the data myself. And even if it is available on a web site, can my computer automatically download it?

A direct cable might be possible, depending on the meter. But would not be advisable for example on a gas meter, as you cannot connect that to an external device without suitable earth bonding. 

 

If your computer can view RMWeb, it will be able to view any data presented by any utility company. 

[Richard Lee]

I've not had LED bulbs yet, but from past experience of the CFL type they didn't last significantly longer than the Tungsten bulbs in the same locations (I would doubt even twice as long, let along 40 times). Perhaps they don't like being turned on and off frequently. Too early to say in the new house; there's just one Tungsten bulb on the stairs (lights up the stairs immediately in the dark and gets turned off when I'm at the bottom or top) the rest are CFL, Two of the latter have been replaced in 4 years.

Regarding the fluorescent type of low energy bulbs, most of the bulbs I have used have lasted a lot longer than the tungsten type.  There have been a couple of exceptions, where I bought them cheap (about 2 Bulgarian Leva) from a village shop, as opposed to paying about 6 or 8 Leva in the electrical shop in town.  I soon found out it was far better value for money to buy from the electrical shop.

 

These days I buy the LED type, and am gradually replacing the fluorescent type as they go.  We find the LED ones give nicer light immediately from switch on, are better to read by, and the light they produce doesn't tend to deteriorate with time.  I haven't had one go completely yet, but one in the kitchen started flickering there, but when I moved it to the cellar gave a steady light.

[BernardTPM]

I'm sure LEDs will be the way to go, though trying to find the equivalent bulb can be tricky. Looking here it says a normal 100w bulb gives 1853 lumens, so the nearest equivalent LED bulb is 25W (so 25% of the power used by a standard bulb, not 10%). Looking here, there's only one that even reaches 960 lumens, so I need two bulbs at least £4.99 each (the 9W, claiming 760+ lumen, though the other site says 9W gives 671 lumen), plus a double light fitting, to replace one old-fashioned 100w bulb (or its CFL equivalent).

Perhaps energy saving light bulbs need a topic of their own. There's a lot of variance in the figures!

[Trog]

I don't see that there is any befit in my having a smart meter, if I want to know how much power an appliance uses I will read the wattage label on the back, and if I want to reduce its consumption I will turn it off. With my electric bill running at £40 a month there is probably not much scope for reduction anyway, unless I stop eating hot food.

 

On energy saving bulbs to my mind CFL bulbs are fit only for lighting the loft or filling the bin, LED's however are the best thing since sliced bread. Although you always need a more powerful one than the adverts suggest to replace an old filament bulb on a one to one light level.

[Reorte]

I've been putting LEDs in as replacements for blown tungstens/dodgy CFLs for ages, ?over 5 years. Subjectively, I found the CFLs lasting longer than tungsten, but I've not had to replace any LEDs yet, and the quality of the light from them isn't deteriorating, unlike many CFLs, which seem to gradually deteriorate over time. 

I also find the quality of the light from the LEDs easier on the eye.

LED lights are that rarity - something new that I think is great! I more or less skipped over CFLs (only ever bought one) but every time I need a new bulb now it's an LED. There were some candle bulbs in a fitting that wouldn't work with anything else that I'd not moved to LED but it looks like LED candles are available now too. Another less obvious advantage is that because they don't give off anywhere near as much heat I've now got a bulb of decent brightness in a light that was in a fitting limited to rather dim tungsten bulbs.

[ess1uk]

I rang back and said I don't want one, they were fine about it.

I think I will do the same.

[mezzoman253]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpB1E92kk1M

Classic mistake of confusing non-ionising radiation with ionising radiation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation

 

A lot of these people are making money out of scare mongering.

 

The real danger is variable tariffs. They'll fry your wallet not you brain.

 

Rob

 

Edited for link

Edited April 15, 2017 by mezzoman253

[Dunsignalling]

LED lights are that rarity - something new that I think is great! I more or less skipped over CFLs (only ever bought one) but every time I need a new bulb now it's an LED. There were some candle bulbs in a fitting that wouldn't work with anything else that I'd not moved to LED but it looks like LED candles are available now too. Another less obvious advantage is that because they don't give off anywhere near as much heat I've now got a bulb of decent brightness in a light that was in a fitting limited to rather dim tungsten bulbs.

I've just tried a 5.5w LED golf ball bulb (from Poundland) in my work lamp and it's great.*

 

More even light than the 40w tungsten that was in there and, after swapping to-and-fro a couple of times it actually seems a tad brighter, too.  

 

Next week's shopping list will include a few more in other sizes to replace dire CFLs.

 

John

 

EDIT: * FWIW the colour temperature, according to the box, is 2700K "Warm White".

Edited April 16, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Baby Deltic]

Classic mistake of confusing non-ionising radiation with ionising radiation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation

 

A lot of these people are making money out of scare mongering.

 

The real danger is variable tariffs. They'll fry your wallet not you brain.

 

Rob

 

Edited for link

Microwaves are still extremely harmful to human health though.

[mezzoman253]

Microwaves are still extremely harmful to human health though.

In what way? Did you read the article?

 

Rob

[AngusDe]

I've always been a fan of gadgets and an early adopter of many devices so when I was offered one 30 months ago, I thought bril.....

 

After it was installed the novelty quickly wore off, watching the wee display light go from green to red every time the kettle went on didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but the constantly up to date meter readings did seem useful, but....

 

.... after a couple of months the meter reader chap turned up, but I've got a smart meter, "still need to check the readings" err, ok.

 

The meters are both on the floor at the back of a cupboard, so you need to empty the cupboard of all my tools and boxes of bits to read them with a torch, irritating, but no deal breaker.

 

After 12 months the tariff ran out, and I switched suppliers. And I started getting monthly meter reading email requests, but I've got a smart meter, "no you haven't" err, ok.

 

After another 12 months the new supplier offered new meters, so chap arrives and replaces the old smart meters with identical new smart meters and a different display. After a couple of hours of phone calls he still couldn't get it to work, but left saying it would be sorted.

 

The monthly meter reading requests continued, so more phone calls ensued. Eventually the explanation I was given was that the network master asset database wasn't updated properly when I switched suppliers, which was why they never knew I had one and why they couldn't get new/replacement one logged on. Reading requests have stopped but the display has never connected to the meter, so who knows if my kettle still uses lots of electricity.

 

The reality is, they bring little or no benefit to most consumers, but they do offer the utility companies many advantages, once were all on them, in being able to manage demand with more dynamic tariffs, protect revenue with ability to turn off supplies remotely etc. 

 

So that's my experience, forget all the crackpot conspiracy stuff, they're just a mobile phone strapped to your meter, no more and no less, you'll never notice the difference.

 

Angus

[Baby Deltic]

In what way? Did you read the article?

 

Rob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lORekVVGr1s

 

Watch it if you want and form your own opinions. Richard D hall was originally an Graduate Electronics Engineer, and Barrie Tower is an expert on microwave technology. I certainly switch off my wireless router and mobile phones at night.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Baby Deltic

[steve W]

The meters are both on the floor at the back of a cupboard, so you need to empty the cupboard of all my tools and boxes of bits to read them with a torch, irritating, but no deal breaker.

 

After 12 months the tariff ran out, and I switched suppliers. And I started getting monthly meter reading email requests, but I've got a smart meter, "no you haven't" err, ok.

 

After another 12 months the new supplier offered new meters, so chap arrives and replaces the old smart meters with identical new smart meters and a different display. After a couple of hours of phone calls he still couldn't get it to work, but left saying it would be sorted.

..................

The reality is, they bring little or no benefit to most consumers,

 

An interesting discussion. My IET institute magazine dropped onto the door mat a day or two ago with an article about Smart Meters and their problems. 

AngusDe (above) highlights common problems with the present generation of meters (SMETS-1), especially about switching suppliers as it seems there is more than one system out there (there shouldn't be) and of course they don't have common communications even if the back of the cupboard on the floor has a mobile signal, many apparently do not.

 

Yes, a new generation (SMETS-2) of meters is coming along that will provide more features - many of the unpleasant aspects mentioned elsewhere here like Smart Tariffs but, also including one important feature left out of the first design, of which there are 6 million currently installed. That is, the ability to communicate with the government's  centralised Data Communications Company (DCC!) hub, run by that renowned data management company, Capita (£175million contract). This becomes important if you want to switch energy suppliers as DCC will co-ordinate the change and provide the new supplier with your data. At the moment there reports of delays (meter not talking / DCC not listening or understanding the language and the meter reverting to 'dumb' requiring the clearing of the cupboard for the meter reader again.

There is a race to develop a software 'upgrade' to allow these 1st gen meters to be remotely updated; but it seems they were never designed to be remotely updated in the first place and at the moment there is no solution other than to change them all for the new design which is not yet ready and at additional costs that would be met by higher bills for the consumer. 

The government deadline for all homes (about 60million) to be installed is by the end of 2019 -so far only 10% of homes are fitted (and may need 'unfitting'/refitting if remote updating cannot be achieved)

 

Conspiracy theories? Unless the Chinese are interested in Mrs. W's Cornish Pasty baking habits, I very much doubt they are involved, but our government is and a look at the Data Communications Company website explains it better than I can:

Quote:

Smart DCC Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Capita plc.

The data and communications infrastructure will:

• operate consistently for all consumers regardless of their energy supplier
• provide smart metering data to network operators in support of smart grids
• allow authorised third parties to provide services to consumers who have granted them permission to use their data. Consumers can benefit by receiving energy services and advice on how to reduce their energy usage.

Unquote. There is also a useful little diagram of the relationships of all these folks See https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/about-dcc/

 

Extending data use so that Curry's can try and sell you a new variable frequency smart fridge I suspect is not on most peoples list of 'benefits' so make sure which box you tick on the forms. There are concerns about the data aspect though, a lack of usual load data might indicate an empty property and these meters make that info available to many more folk. I suspect the actual risk of it being used for nefarious purposes is minuscule.

 

Personally, I will stick with my dumb meters and save money till (1) I am forced to change on the basis that fitting now now will add to the number of Mk1 meters in circulation and if I don't fit it, It's one less to be replaced effectively at my cost later. Or, and unlikely, 2) they offer me a rock bottom tariff that I can't say 'no' to.

Edited April 15, 2017 by steve W

[Reorte]

So that's my experience, forget all the crackpot conspiracy stuff, they're just a mobile phone strapped to your meter

Yep, that might be why I don't like them! Precious little mobile reception here anyway (it might work if the meter was outside).

 

I don't go with "conspiracy theory" so much as having a pretty darned strong dislike of any attempt at getting hold of more information than is strictly necessary to provide and pay for a service, and any attempts to do so push in the "disadvantage" direction. It's bad enough with the amount that can't be (or is awkward to) avoid.

 

Anyway, I'm off to convert my locos back to DC because I don't trust what DCC might be sending out...

[BernardTPM]

So that's my experience, forget all the crackpot conspiracy stuff, they're just a mobile phone strapped to your meter, no more and no less, you'll never notice the difference.

Well, I hate mobile phones, so that's a no-no then.

[melmerby]

If you are with Eon and your gas meter sits on a bit of asbestos - forget it.

 

I opted for a smart meter 12 months or so ago and am still waiting because Eon weren't qualified to remove asbestos and didn't have a contract wihh anyone that did!

 

The SIM cards use a roving SIM so can use any network that gets a signal.

 

Keith

[Dunsignalling]

I'm doing as I always do, letting the early adopters "enjoy" being part of the development process while I sit back until all the bugs have been ironed out.

 

I'm in no hurry because can't see any obvious benefit for me. If I want to use something, I switch it on and when I'm finished, I switch it off. Simple. 

 

John

Edited April 15, 2017 by Dunsignalling