Smart Meter = smart move?

[Phil Parker]

The advantage of Smartmeters is you know what devices use what power. Years ago I bought an Owl electric meter which measured consumption and showed what the house was using on a prominent display.

 

I'm nerdy enough that to different levels of consumption were interesting. Showers and kettles make the consuption go up, toy trains don't so much. Were I buying new white goods, it would then persuade me to go for those with lower consumption. It certainly makes the higher initial cost of LED bulbs look worthwhile.

 

For most people, electricity just comes out of the wall and you don't think about it until the bill arrives. For many users, even that won't interest them as their parents are handling that bit. Hopefully though, if you shift people to lower consumption devices that are more efficient then we need to generate less electricty. Effiency needs to be turned into demand from shoppers or manufacturers won't invest in R&D - why bother if people will buy the old thing? If consumption is obvious (no reading meters under the stairs) to everyone, perhaps it might modify people's behaviour.

 

I read somewhere that the move away from incandescent lightbulbs has reduced consumption by 2 whole power stations. And before you say you don't care, imagine that power station is at the bottom of your garden and see how much you discover you care then. Let's face it, we can't build anything in this country without a thousand NIMBY's popping up, so as we want the lights to stay on, we need to use electricity more efficiently.

[Jub45565]

I read somewhere that the move away from incandescent lightbulbs has reduced consumption by 2 whole power stations.

 

OT I admit, but I do have a slight issue with this - and that is that in doing so we only look at operational energy useage. I wish there was a more balanced environmental label which included manufacturing info in terms of both energy and materials. Generally speaking I agree though, we are the ones in charge (no pun intended) of our own destiny.

[JohnR]

After (yet another) dispute with my electricity provider about billing mistakes I am going back to my old supplier. They are offering me a Smart Meter which - apparently - will bring joy, happiness and massive financial gain to my hitherto joyless, unhappy, poverty ridden existence.

 

But will it?

 

Anybody got one of these things, and found it a boon?

 

Anybody got one and wish they didn't?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

 

 

Hi Tony,

My day job is an Energy Manager. I have worked with Smart Meters since 2008, when I first arranged installation across the council property portfolio. I've got nearly 10 years experience working with them, from a number of suppliers, across a range of utilities (electricity, gas and water). My current employer has over 100 smart meters across our estate. 

 

Firstly, any device will have problems, and this applies just as much to the old fashioned meters as it does to the smart meters. However, in the many years I have worked as an Energy Manager, I can say that I have only ever encoutered problems with "old" meters - diaphrams not working in gas meters, ft3 recorded as m3, recorded as x10 instead of x1 etc. Smart Meters (or loggers attached to old meters) have not caused a single problem in that time that was caused by it being a smart meter. 

 

Smart Meters provide many advantages. One of the earliest (and biggest) wins I had (and still get from time to time), is discovering that a gas boiler is firing 24/7, instead of being switched off by whatever timer is supposed to be in control. Another was discovering all the equipment left on over night at our flagship HQ building - and then using the data to shame encourage the staff into switching it off when they went home. Even better was then being able to use the data to show them the impact they had had. 

 

A by product of it was an end to estimated bills. We know that the reading on our bill is exactly what had at midnight on the last day of the month. Its therefore much more accurate than getting someone to read the meter manually - and of course saves time. Having accurate billing means I or my colleagues dont have to waste it trying to sort out an inaccurate bill. The same will apply to the domestic user. 

 

 

In summary, there are many plus points for even the domestic user to get from having a smart meter. I would heartedly recommend one to everyone, and urge them to ignore the scare stories.

[JohnR]

OT I admit, but I do have a slight issue with this - and that is that in doing so we only look at operational energy useage. I wish there was a more balanced environmental label which included manufacturing info in terms of both energy and materials. Generally speaking I agree though, we are the ones in charge (no pun intended) of our own destiny.

Even including manufacturing (and disposal) CFL and LED bulbs are much more energy efficient. A typical Tungsten bulb will have a lifetime of 1000 hours (it can be a lot less depending on how it is used). A CFL: or LED can be as high as 60,000 hours. So, if you have to manufacture (and transport and then dispose) 40, 50 or even 60 Tungsten bulbs for every LED one, you can see that the newer lighting is much more efficient. Even leaving aside the fact that a 7W LED bulb gives as much light as a 60W Tungsten one over that lifetime. 

[Reorte]

Smart Meters provide many advantages. One of the earliest (and biggest) wins I had (and still get from time to time), is discovering that a gas boiler is firing 24/7, instead of being switched off by whatever timer is supposed to be in control. Another was discovering all the equipment left on over night at our flagship HQ building - and then using the data to shame encourage the staff into switching it off when they went home. Even better was then being able to use the data to show them the impact they had had.

All you need for that is a meter with a fine enough resolution to see it going, not a smart meter.

 

I've never really seen the justification for estimated bills. New meter reading, difference from last meter reading gives you the amount to pay, price changes only take effect on scheduled readings (could go either way but should average over time).

 

In summary, there are many plus points for even the domestic user to get from having a smart meter. I would heartedly recommend one to everyone, and urge them to ignore the scare stories.

I'm yet to hear a convincing plus point for me as a domestic user, unlike both the actual (any form of someone else monitoring what I'm doing needs one hell of a lot of very, very good justification) and potential downsides.

 

Being able to see consumption in real time might be of slight benefit to some people, sending that information out is not.

 

This broadly applies to anything with "smart" in its name; it appears to be a synonym for "pointless gimmick that for some reason some people treat as the best thing since sliced bread."

Edited April 13, 2017 by Reorte

[polybear]

After (yet another) dispute with my electricity provider about billing mistakes I am going back to my old supplier. They are offering me a Smart Meter which - apparently - will bring joy, happiness and massive financial gain to my hitherto joyless, unhappy, poverty ridden existence.

 

But will it?

 

Anybody got one of these things, and found it a boon?

 

Anybody got one and wish they didn't?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

I had one installed - the guy asked me to "switch off any sensitive electronic equipment - computers, laptops, sky boxes, TV's" before he knocked the power off, so I did.

Work completed, power restored.  Discovered one b*ggered fridge freezer, a few days before xmas and with a Tesco delivery booked.....

Not happy, but realistic enough to realise there wasn't much chance of getting a new fridge out of the leccy board either

 

edit: Fridge was one of those frost-free jobbies, complete with clever (not) control board inside

Edited April 13, 2017 by polybear

[Phil Parker]

All you need for that is a meter with a fine enough resolution to see it going, not a smart meter.

 

I've never really seen the justification for estimated bills. New meter reading, difference from last meter reading gives you the amount to pay, price changes only take effect on scheduled readings (could go either way but should average over time).

 

I'm yet to hear a convincing plus point for me as a domestic user, unlike both the actual (any form of someone else monitoring what I'm doing needs one hell of a lot of very, very good justification) and potential downsides.

 

Being able to see consumption in real time might be of slight benefit to some people, sending that information out is not.

 

This broadly applies to anything with "smart" in its name; it appears to be a synonym for "pointless gimmick that for some reason some people treat as the best thing since sliced bread."

 

Doesn't matter how fine the resolution is, if it's under the stairs or in the back of the cupboard, most people won't be interested in looking at it. This especially applies to the people who need to understand that electricity isn't freeand leave the lights on all day. A honking great display on the wall stands a better chance of working. At least it takes away one excuse.

 

Estimated bills are surely when the meter reader can't get to the cupboard. If you work during the day and go out sometimes in the evening, that means they can't get to your meter. I know you can do your own reading, but people will tell lies about the numbers. Sending out the info should stop all that. Yes, it's monitoring but realistically, how much can they tell from it? I'm pretty certain that the leccy board aren't looking at your consumption and saying, "I see the power drain has increased. Must be running that Hornby Dublo 8F. He wants to get one of those DJM locos with a coreless motor. Far cheaper...".

[Reorte]

Doesn't matter how fine the resolution is, if it's under the stairs or in the back of the cupboard, most people won't be interested in looking at it. This especially applies to the people who need to understand that electricity isn't freeand leave the lights on all day. A honking great display on the wall stands a better chance of working. At least it takes away one excuse.

People who are interested in looking will look anyway, people who aren't will take the display off the wall where it gets in the way and chuck it in to a cupboard. Pestering most people with these things because some can't act responsibly isn't a good solution. Attempts at nagging, especially in my home, don't go down well.

 

Estimated bills are surely when the meter reader can't get to the cupboard. If you work during the day and go out sometimes in the evening, that means they can't get to your meter. I know you can do your own reading, but people will tell lies about the numbers. Sending out the info should stop all that. Yes, it's monitoring but realistically, how much can they tell from it? I'm pretty certain that the leccy board aren't looking at your consumption and saying, "I see the power drain has increased. Must be running that Hornby Dublo 8F. He wants to get one of those DJM locos with a coreless motor. Far cheaper...".

A bill off a customer's reading might be inaccurate if they've given a wrong reading but doesn't need to be an estimate. Troublesome customers need treating with a scalpel, not a sledgehammer that hits all.

 

How much they can read from it is beside the point, I'm against monitoring regardless without very good reasons indeed. The furthest I'd go as OK is "press a button to automatically send a reading" or maybe "schedule automatically sending a reading once a month". In both cases I'd need to be certain that it's doing exactly what I want it to, and couldn't be changed remotely at all.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Reorte

[APOLLO]

Smart meters and price by the hour using TOU (time of use) tariffs are just the thin end of the wedge

 

It's not just about real time monitoring.

 

Coming soon are certain white goods (fridges, freezers, washing machines mainly) fitted with mains frequency monitoring chips which will automatically turn off the appliance when the mains frequency falls below a set value, which it does at times of peak demand.

 

You can see the real time frequency data here

 

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/Industry-information/electricity-transmission-operational-data/

 

Anyway, have fun while you can. I have a box of O gauge Hornby clockwork in the loft !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Fat Controller]

Smart meters and price by the hour using TOU (time of use) tariffs are just the thin end of the wedge

 

It's not just about real time monitoring.

 

Coming soon are certain white goods (fridges, freezers, washing machines mainly) fitted with mains frequency monitoring chips which will automatically turn off the appliance when the mains frequency falls below a set value, which it does at times of peak demand.

 

You can see the real time frequency data here

 

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/Industry-information/electricity-transmission-operational-data/

 

Anyway, have fun while you can. I have a box of O gauge Hornby clockwork in the loft !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

It must be about twenty years ago that my friends in Beaujolais were offered a special tariff, provided they would accept that they might have their supply cut at periods of peak demand. EDF did the switching remotely via a box next to the mains in. During the greater part of the year, losing the juice at 18:00 was scarcely a problem; however, come harvest-time, when thirty sweaty grape-pickers wanted a shower, and their evening meal was in the oven, it was a bit of a problem. Within a couple of days, EDF agreed that this tariff wasn't appropriate for a working farm, and switched back to normal.

[JohnR]

All you need for that is a meter with a fine enough resolution to see it going, not a smart meter.

 

I've never really seen the justification for estimated bills. New meter reading, difference from last meter reading gives you the amount to pay, price changes only take effect on scheduled readings (could go either way but should average over time).

 

I'm yet to hear a convincing plus point for me as a domestic user, unlike both the actual (any form of someone else monitoring what I'm doing needs one hell of a lot of very, very good justification) and potential downsides.

 

Being able to see consumption in real time might be of slight benefit to some people, sending that information out is not.

 

This broadly applies to anything with "smart" in its name; it appears to be a synonym for "pointless gimmick that for some reason some people treat as the best thing since sliced bread."

Its not the resolution of the meter that is different - indeed, they are actually the same. Its the fact that the Smart Meter can take that meter reading for you every half hour (some every 15 minutes now), and record that for you. Want to know what was working at 1.30am in the morning? You dont need to be popping up to the meter box every 30 minutes to take the reading yourself in the middle of the night. Especially important for gas or water meters which are not in the house. 

 

In what way is it "someone else monitoring what I'm doing"? If you dont do anything, your consumption will stay the same, the bills will stay the same - and get this - the Energy company wont care. Its up to YOU to monitor your energy use - and YOU will benefit. If you dont want to save money, send me some. 

 

As I pointed out (with examples) there are many benefits from being able to see such information. 

[JohnR]

Doesn't matter how fine the resolution is, if it's under the stairs or in the back of the cupboard, most people won't be interested in looking at it. This especially applies to the people who need to understand that electricity isn't freeand leave the lights on all day. A honking great display on the wall stands a better chance of working. At least it takes away one excuse.

 

Estimated bills are surely when the meter reader can't get to the cupboard. If you work during the day and go out sometimes in the evening, that means they can't get to your meter. I know you can do your own reading, but people will tell lies about the numbers. Sending out the info should stop all that. Yes, it's monitoring but realistically, how much can they tell from it? I'm pretty certain that the leccy board aren't looking at your consumption and saying, "I see the power drain has increased. Must be running that Hornby Dublo 8F. He wants to get one of those DJM locos with a coreless motor. Far cheaper...".

Estimated bills are a menace, because the law requires that meters are only read every 2 years. Many are read more often, but there is no requirement for them to do so. Now, you could send in your own meter readings every month, but its hardly giving you the detail which, for example shows your boiler is working overnight when it shouldnt. 

[BG John]

Its not the resolution of the meter that is different - indeed, they are actually the same. Its the fact that the Smart Meter can take that meter reading for you every half hour (some every 15 minutes now), and record that for you. Want to know what was working at 1.30am in the morning? You dont need to be popping up to the meter box every 30 minutes to take the reading yourself in the middle of the night. Especially important for gas or water meters which are not in the house.

Can that data be transferred to my computer through a cable, so I can make use of it? Whatever your opinion of it, I'm not having wi-fi in my house. My computer uses Linux, just to add a further potential complication.

[57xx]

Estimated bills are a menace, because the law requires that meters are only read every 2 years. Many are read more often, but there is no requirement for them to do so. Now, you could send in your own meter readings every month, but its hardly giving you the detail which, for example shows your boiler is working overnight when it shouldnt. 

 

I don't need a gas meter to show my boiler is working, the heat from the radiators is a much bigger indicator than going outside to check the meter...

[APOLLO]

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-3322658/The-great-smart-meter-rip-UK-energy-giants-use-devices-DOUBLE-cost-power-need-most.html

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

Estimated bills are a menace, because the law requires that meters are only read every 2 years. Many are read more often, but there is no requirement for them to do so. Now, you could send in your own meter readings every month, but its hardly giving you the detail which, for example shows your boiler is working overnight when it shouldnt. 

 

That's what the timer clock is for.. 

 

A programmable clock and / or programmable thermostat is all you need. i have both. I don't look at my meters at 01:30 am. I send my own meter readings to my supplier every 3 months (they remind me by email) and I get an instantly calculated bill as to where I am with my account. 

 

That's all I want / need. If people want smart meters, fine by me. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. People need to know what the bigger, long term picture is re energy supply / metering / tarrifs etc, and it is far from rosy.

 

Brit15

[JJGraphics]

I'd not thought of the various conspiracy theories about having your power consumption monitored. But I would say that since having the smart meter fitted I don't have to wait around to have the meters read.

We never do. Just enter the readings online.

 

The meters are supposed to be read manually once every two years, but that never happens.

 

We have a password for the meter reader to identify themselves by and on the two occasions someone who may or may not have been a legitimate meter reader turned up in the last five or six years, they did not have the password so my wife rightly did not let them in.

 

There have been a number of reports lately that some people using LED bulbs are being over billed by ridiculous amounts because of a problem with Smart Meters. I am a still a VERY long way from being convinced about them . . .

Edited April 13, 2017 by JJGraphics

[chris p bacon]

We never do. Just enter the readings online.

 

The meters are supposed to be read manually once every two years, but that never happens.

 

I used to enter online, and before that telephone so the bill was always accurate. 

 

Maybe due to our usage we had the meters read every 12-18 months and as they are inside the house in the original position from 1931 I had to be around to let them in.

 

I also own a shop to house conversion in town, I've just checked the file and  we have had appointments to have the meter read 3 times in the past 15 months, I would presume this is because the consumption has varied (a lot) from the previous owner.

[vitalspark]

The consensus seems to be one of suspicion until the energy companies reassure their customers.

 

I just don't want one period..thats it.

 

I manage fine with a monthly reading and any quarter thats has been estimated is based on the same period the previous year which usually works fine.

 

If it was wildly out then a simple phonecall with a reading and a new bill is generated.

 

Lets get one thing clear..Smart meters don't reduce bills.

 

That only happens because consumers are now paying attention to this new gadget and actualiy 'seeing' their usage which makes them more aware.

 

We should be switching things off anyway when not in use but as previously mentioned there are plenty very simple clip on devices exactly the same as provided with the Smart

 

meter that you can buy yourself cheaply that provide the same information as the Smart meter.

 

By the sound of these posts most if not all are pretty savvy about their meters and because of this can see few advantages but it also sounds like they are aware of the possibility

 

of abuse of information provided.

 

I will repeat what I said earlier..Smart meters don't reduce your bill…unless the Smart meter tariffs are less per Kw/hr than the existing meters which I doubt.

 

And for the guys who are convinced there is a conspiracy theory..if you do have one installed just cover it in tin foil or the like and thats that!

 

Off to play with some trains.

 

Dave.

[w124bob]

So basically we're going to be charged a power by the hour tariff because the energy companies know full well you can't stagger teatime! Off peak will disappear when we're all charging our electric cars and some spotty nerd in a bedroom in Slough hacks into EDF's computer system and blacks out everything south of Watford!

[JohnR]

Can that data be transferred to my computer through a cable, so I can make use of it? Whatever your opinion of it, I'm not having wi-fi in my house. My computer uses Linux, just to add a further potential complication.

That data can be used in any way you like. The meter will send it back to the meter operator, and you can then access it - usually via a website provided. How you access the internet (wifi, broadband, dial-up) is up to you. As long as you can see a website, you can access the data.

[w124bob]

No doubt forced smart meter installation will come, a couple of ways to force the issue could be linked to sale of the property. You will be required to have some form (landlord style) saftey certificate, you only get a pass if you have a meter. Introduce (lets say) 3 yearly wiring inpections, you fail because your old meter no longer meets some new saftey regs. It will all dressed up as "saftey/environmental" and may take time but eventually.......

[PatB]

Different country, admittedly, and not a smart meter as such (I still have to read it and send in the numbers every 2 months), but I was very pleased when we got a new digital meter and the option to have an electricity tariff based on time of day.

 

Because the B household run a small pottery business and fire with an electric kiln our consumption can be quite high, With careful timing and setting of the firing cycle we can just about squeeze the 100+kWh of a porcelain glaze firing into the off-peak period at a tariff that's roughly half what we were previously paying. Consequently our bills have come down, overall, by about 16% (or $40 a month). When you're living hand to mouth as we currently are, that represents a substantial saving.

[BernardTPM]

Even including manufacturing (and disposal) CFL and LED bulbs are much more energy efficient. A typical Tungsten bulb will have a lifetime of 1000 hours (it can be a lot less depending on how it is used). A CFL: or LED can be as high as 60,000 hours. So, if you have to manufacture (and transport and then dispose) 40, 50 or even 60 Tungsten bulbs for every LED one, you can see that the newer lighting is much more efficient. Even leaving aside the fact that a 7W LED bulb gives as much light as a 60W Tungsten one over that lifetime. 

I've not had LED bulbs yet, but from past experience of the CFL type they didn't last significantly longer than the Tungsten bulbs in the same locations (I would doubt even twice as long, let along 40 times). Perhaps they don't like being turned on and off frequently. Too early to say in the new house; there's just one Tungsten bulb on the stairs (lights up the stairs immediately in the dark and gets turned off when I'm at the bottom or top) the rest are CFL, Two of the latter have been replaced in 4 years.

[APOLLO]

Electricity & Gas tariffs based on time of day are fine for businesses such as PatB's above.

 

The "problem" is evening peak, Approximately 4pm to 7pm on a cold, cold winters evening. Home from school / work, heating on, cooker on, lights on, kettle on, TV on multiple electronic gadgets on, ALL using top price energy. You can delay your washing machine etc till after peak. The average user can't delay much of the above till after peak, and if many do, then peak times will move to catch up.

 

Brit15