Hornby APPOINTS NEW CEO

[Dunsignalling]

As someone from across the ditch, reading this fascinates me. I grew up with the notion of the Lima and Hornby brands as mainstays, and having Hornby points under the tree at Christmas was always a far better prospect than the Lima's. So the ingrained nature of the brand to those outside of the UK is a thing worth remembering.

 

Post Brexit, there'll not be a model shop in Europe stocking Hornby, Peco, Humbrol, Airfix, or any other UK similar manufacturer, as the import duties and tariffs won't make it feasible. (Hornby trainsets, track, scaledale is stocked in all the big box toy outfits in Ireland, and do well at Santa time, though we're a fraction of the UK market, I'd imagine)

 

The idea of purchasing a few whitemetal bits from the likes of dart castings will no longer be an option unless I go meet a shady character in an underground car park in Belfast, to sneak it across the border!

 

Brexit couldn't come at a worse time for the potential "phoenix rising" of Hornby, and the hobby in general..*

 

 R. 

 

*Hope I'm wrong...

The solution may be Pals who purchase and post.

 

It'll take the UK Govt years to plug any loopholes, even assuming they want to.........

[chris p bacon]

The solution may be Pals who purchase and post.

 

It'll take the UK Govt years to plug any loopholes, even assuming they want to.........

I already do this for some overseas mates. It gets to be like Red Cross parcels

[Roy Langridge]

Post Brexit, there'll not be a model shop in Europe stocking Hornby, Peco, Humbrol, Airfix, or any other UK similar manufacturer, as the import duties and tariffs won't make it feasible.

 

Well that is a rather bold statement isn't it and rather jumping the gun? I am sure you will not see any significant changes in import tariffs as it would be harmful to the economies of both the UK and Europe.

 

Or do you know something that we and most of the rest of Europe (including governments) do not?

 

Roy

[Coryton]

Post Brexit, there'll not be a model shop in Europe stocking Hornby, Peco, Humbrol, Airfix, or any other UK similar manufacturer, as the import duties and tariffs won't make it feasible. (Hornby trainsets, track, scaledale is stocked in all the big box toy outfits in Ireland, and do well at Santa time, though we're a fraction of the UK market, I'd imagine)

 

The idea of purchasing a few whitemetal bits from the likes of dart castings will no longer be an option unless I go meet a shady character in an underground car park in Belfast, to sneak it across the border!

 

Unless I've missed an announcement that the EU will be imposing punitive tariffs on the UK, I would strongly disagree.

 

The worst that is likely is that there is no trade deal and existing tariffs apply.

 

I'm led to believe that Peco track sells very well in the US so why not the EU?

 

Most model railway items are imported from China so duty is being paid anyway. I very much doubt it would be worth the hassle of separately shipping stock directly to the EU but I imagine that by filling in the right paperwork with HMRC you don't need to (certainly possible with goods that are incorporated into a product exported outside the EU but I've never had to re-export anything as-is so I don't know).

 

Import tariffs are generally very low - not more than around 2%.

 

You can look them up at https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/ from which we see that the tarrif on:

"Electric trains, including tracks, signals and other accessories therefor; reduced-size (scale) model assembly kits"

is in fact a whopping 0%.

 

So while Brexit might well bring its own problems and increase paperwork, the import duty is likely to remain exactly the same.

 

Most of what individuals have to pay when they import items is VAT and handling charges and of course model shops won't be paying VAT (or will pay and get it all back again).

[Legend]

As someone from across the ditch, reading this fascinates me. I grew up with the notion of the Lima and Hornby brands as mainstays, and having Hornby points under the tree at Christmas was always a far better prospect than the Lima's. So the ingrained nature of the brand to those outside of the UK is a thing worth remembering.

 

Post Brexit, there'll not be a model shop in Europe stocking Hornby, Peco, Humbrol, Airfix, or any other UK similar manufacturer, as the import duties and tariffs won't make it feasible. (Hornby trainsets, track, scaledale is stocked in all the big box toy outfits in Ireland, and do well at Santa time, though we're a fraction of the UK market, I'd imagine)

 

The idea of purchasing a few whitemetal bits from the likes of dart castings will no longer be an option unless I go meet a shady character in an underground car park in Belfast, to sneak it across the border!

 

Brexit couldn't come at a worse time for the potential "phoenix rising" of Hornby, and the hobby in general..*

 

 R. 

 

*Hope I'm wrong...

You set up Hornby in Luxembourg for Continental outline, Humbrol, Airfix etc . After all all it will do is import models from China in the same way Hornby UK does .

[Coryton]

You set up Hornby in Luxembourg for Continental outline, Humbrol, Airfix etc . After all all it will do is import models from China in the same way Hornby UK does .

 

See above - unless I've missed something, EU import tariff on our toys is 0%.

 

Edited to add: Tariffs on toys seem to be generally 0% with a few exceptions at 4.7%, including:

    Plastic construction sets (but not other materials) - pressure from Lego?

    Die-cast miniature models of metal - not so good for Corgi/Oxford perhaps*

    "Other toys and models, incorporating a motor", split into two categories, "Cable car scale models for printing" (eh?) and other.

    

* As this is in the "other" section it presumably doesn't include electric trains and accessories which have their own section so there could be some fun arguing whether a 00 scale bus is a model railway accessory or comes under the die-cast metal heading.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Coryton

[Bernard Lamb]

Well that is a rather bold statement isn't it and rather jumping the gun? I am sure you will not see any significant changes in import tariffs as it would be harmful to the economies of both the UK and Europe.

 

Or do you know something that we and most of the rest of Europe (including governments) do not?

 

Roy

A point totally misunderstood by Brexit supporters is that the EU would rather be financially worse of as long as they maintain the moral high ground. Certainly the view in Germany and they seem to be leading the way.

As for governments knowing or not knowing what is going to happen I give you the following score.

Personal information form the UK authorities since the referendum zero.

Personal information from the German authorities. Every couple of months.

Post Brexit arrangements on pensions, national insurance, taxation and banking are being prepared in Germany for people living in the UK with German connections. That reminds me, there are another couple of forms to fill in that came in the post yesterday. 

The UK government might well be working behind the scenes, but they are doing naff all in public to put peoples minds at ease in respect of a rapidly approaching deadline.

Hornby do seem to be acting with a sense of urgency to put their house in order.  I do feel sympathy for the people on the board who are trying to plan for the future with one hand tied behind their back.

Bernard

[Black 5 Bear]

Think this is getting a little political now, however the stagnation in brexit talks is due to the intransigence of the EU. WTO tariffs would not be the end of the world.

[Anglian]

the EU would rather be financially worse of as long as they maintain the moral high ground. 

 

 

Surely if the EU would rather they were worse off, rather than attempting to secure a good deal for all nations (UK included), then they are acting immorally with regards the interests and wellbeing of the entire EU population. Such a stance is probably contrary to the spirit and wording of their own manifesto.

 

In one of my other hobbies, in which the UK has the lion's share of the design and manufacturing, there has always been an interesting ebb and flow with currency exchange rates over the years. Right now the American friends and associates are taking advantage of the weak pound and buying a lot more than they typically would. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Anglian

[Edwardian]

Define what you mean by 'was'

 

In the 2015 / 2016 financial year Monach generated reasonable profits and there was no reason to assume it would fail.

 

In fact in the period between April 2016 and a few week ago  till they folded Monach actually were carrying even MORE passengers than the previous financial  year.

 

Monach failed because:-

 

(1) Brexit and the massive plunge in the strength of the pound causing fuel costs / plane leasing costs to rocket upwards

(2) Terrorist incidents abroad (Egypt, Tunisa, etc being particularity strong routes for the airline till) causing the airline to cease offering their most profitable products

(3) Massive overcapacity in the short haul / budget airline sector holding down fares - with the loss of its routes to North Africa (see point 2) then Monach had no choice but to operate within this sector of the market.

 

They did not fail by either (i) offering a product nobody wanted (ii) some sort of 'grand plan' that went wrong.

 

In other words Monachs demise was mainly due to factors beyond their control - and critics of Hornby would do well to remember that. Particularly as the Brexit negotiations are stalling, Sterling has not recovered its post Brexit vote falls against the Dollar / Euro, Business is increasingly deferring investment due to Brexit uncertainty, we have a Conservative Government looks that seems worryingly fractured / unstable and you have opposition actively planning for a 'run on the banks' if they get into power and nationalise everything. In short it really doesn't matter that much what Hornby do themselves, there are far grater dangers lurking out there that could decimate them (and indeed all sorts of other businesses) very quickly if those in charge of running the country get it wrong regardless of how well Hornby, etc may be doing at present.

 

There is an old saying "be careful what you wish for" - something far too many Politicians, and indeed Great British electorate have chosen to ignore with potentially lethal effects on the British economy over the next decade.

 

I fear that you attempt to read too much into the analogy; all analogies break down upon closer inspection, of course, because no two things or situations are the same, merely analogous.

 

The point of the analogy, which I had hoped was sufficiently obvious and I apologise if it wasn't, is that offering a quality product was not enough to save a company, whereas offering a cheap product (no one has every accused Ryanair of offering a quality experience, so far as I am aware) made a competitor profitable.

 

In model railway terms, the quality of a RTR product is often understood in terms of its accuracy.  The success of Oxford, and some other quite flaky recent RTR products (flaky in terms of accuracy, that is), suggests that much of the buying public are tolerant of a fair measure of inaccuracy, suggesting that they have other priorities when selecting a product to buy.  Oxford seems to offer attractive products at reasonable prices.  This seems to be more important to consumers than attaining the degree of accuracy that the techniques of modern RTR manufacturing and the available prototype data allow a manufacturer to achieve.

 

Perhaps what some of us need to redefine is our understanding of what makes a "quality" RTR product these days.  It seems to me that the consumer in general regards accuracy as one of a number of desirable qualities.  well, that must always have been true; choice of protoype, running qualities etc must also be factors.  I suggest, however, that accuracy is further down the rankings than some of us might have expected it to be and other factors, such as the fineness of detail and quality of finish that is now possible with RTR models.  It does not, apparently, need to be an accurate detail or finish to render the model desirable.

 

I'm not complaining about this, which would be a pointless activity, but merely observing it.  I have no wish to be tendentious or to be drawn into an argument about model railways, and still less about airlines.

 

As for your mention of BREXIT, we were indulged in a topic on that, but that was by way of an exception to the general rule.  I do agree that BREXIT has caused uncertainty in the currency markets and that lead to grave difficulties for an airline paid in pounds and purchasing in dollars.  Whether one was for or against BREXIT, however, we must hope that such fluctuations will cease once the terms of the UK's future relations with the EU are settled.      

[Guest spet0114]

 

In model railway terms, the quality of a RTR product is often understood in terms of its accuracy.       

 

I'd argue the opposite is true, an RTR product is rarely attributed a 'quality' rating (which is somewhat subjective anyway) based solely on accuracy. If it were the whole Wrenn phenomenon would never have existed. The accuracy was low, but the perceived 'quality' was high.

[Edwardian]

I'd argue the opposite is true, an RTR product is rarely attributed a 'quality' rating (which is somewhat subjective anyway) based solely on accuracy. If it were the whole Wrenn phenomenon would never have existed. The accuracy was low, but the perceived 'quality' was high.

 

Indeed, I did say that it was never the sole criterion.  My point was merely that it is less important than some of us might have thought!

[BG John]

Perhaps inaccurate RTR models are a good thing for "real modellers". In the past, when RTR was generally very inaccurate, it was quite possible for an ordinary modeller to make something better, even if it was far from perfect. With the big improvements in accuracy of RTR, only the most skilled modellers can build something better, and the market for detailing kits for the less skilled has been killed off. I doubt if many people have the incentive to make something themselves that compares badly with what they could buy.

 

Prices of most products have fallen in real terms over the years, so it would be interesting to see what models of the quality of 40 years ago would sell for now, if they were the norm. A one piece body moulding from China must surely be a fraction of the price of one hand assembled from many components. What we have now seems to be, in general, almost accurate models that aren't quite there, at prices similar in real terms to the inaccurate models of the past. Too good for most modellers to make things of a similar standard, but too expensive for them to rip apart and improve in they way they could with really cheap models.

[phil-b259]

I'm not complaining about this, which would be a pointless activity, but merely observing it.  I have no wish to be tendentious or to be drawn into an argument about model railways, and still less about airlines.

 

As for your mention of BREXIT, we were indulged in a topic on that, but that was by way of an exception to the general rule.  I do agree that BREXIT has caused uncertainty in the currency markets and that lead to grave difficulties for an airline paid in pounds and purchasing in dollars.  Whether one was for or against BREXIT, however, we must hope that such fluctuations will cease once the terms of the UK's future relations with the EU are settled.      

 

Quite so - however the point remains that any business, however well run can, soon find itself in financial problems due to rapid changes in the market it operates in that are not of its own making. A bad Sterling versus dollar exchange rate, rising oversees costs and a economic recession could all combine to tip he balance as it were and push companies over the edge (note that is use of the word 'could', not 'will' in this statement).

 

Equally it is foolish to deny that given the current state of affairs regarding Brexit, Government, and opposition party policies, the economic prospects for the next few years are far from certain. True everything might go splendidly and the 'doom mongers' be proved wrong, but for those of us who prefer to look at facts rather than jingoistic statements the current situation is not exactly encouraging.

 

As such Hornby (and indeed everyone else) needs to be careful as however good their products might be or however well they are selling now, if the economy rapidly changes for the worse will they be able to cope? In a situation where the economy is in a bad way Oxford's 'near enough' models may do better given their lower price point over Hornbys generally more accurate (and expensive) models in which case it may be Hornby need to change their strategy and 'downgrade their output. Of course the problem with that is that such an approch only covers new tooling - what about all those models previously produced with all those extra bits of fine detail if it becomes unviable to produce any more?

Edited October 6, 2017 by phil-b259

[Phil Parker]

 

Perhaps what some of us need to redefine is our understanding of what makes a "quality" RTR product these days.  It seems to me that the consumer in general regards accuracy as one of a number of desirable qualities.  well, that must always have been true; choice of protoype, running qualities etc must also be factors.  I suggest, however, that accuracy is further down the rankings than some of us might have expected it to be and other factors, such as the fineness of detail and quality of finish that is now possible with RTR models.  It does not, apparently, need to be an accurate detail or finish to render the model desirable.

 

 

Which is exactly what the BRM review, based on an RMweb survey, of the Oxford DG in the current issue says.

[Coryton]

 

Prices of most products have fallen in real terms over the years, so it would be interesting to see what models of the quality of 40 years ago would sell for now, if they were the norm. A one piece body moulding from China must surely be a fraction of the price of one hand assembled from many components. 

 

We know the answer to that one.

 

£15 for a 4-wheel coach with no discernible prototype...

[BG John]

We know the answer to that one.

 

£15 for a 4-wheel coach with no discernible prototype...

But that's the pricing on the current business model, with a mix of fairly accurate and not at all accurate models. What would it be if the whole business was based around cheap models? Didn't someone mention the old M7 priced much higher than the new H?

[Legend]

It's a fascinating debate on accuracy. I do think that the need for more and more accuracy and fidelity has pushed prices up and again .I include the need to equip for DCC in this (mu connections, coaches with controllable lights)the market has split :Those who are prepared to spend any amount to get the best possible model and those who are prepared to have something dimensionally accurate that runs well and is decorated well. Either point of view is OK

 

As an example if you want the best rtr 47 you'll go for the Bachmann one . I really don't know list price but say £160 , possibly available for £120 depending on what model you looking for. If you want an acceptable 47 , you'd go for a Railroad one (the old Lima moulding with Hornby updated chassis) it runs well , looks like a 47 and you can probably get it for £60-£70 .

 

If I were Hornby I'd establish a range of cheap models like that (66,67,47,37,156) then have a range of high fidelity models for those that want them e.g. Their 60 or 56. But they need to be clearly distinguished and not mixed up Railroad, not Railroad but with a higher spec livery, 3 pole , 5 pole . Semi Railroad like the Crosti. The whole thing frankly was a mess.

We know the answer to that one.

 

£15 for a 4-wheel coach with no discernible prototype...

No you don't know how much it costs to make. That's the price that Hornby think they can sell it for

[coachmann]

Super-detailed RTR is a recent phenomenon in my lifetime and a reminder of how things used to be can be viewed on Hattons 'Used products' website. They were now't but toys and it was still business as usual when they were about for scale modellers building loco kits while I and a small handful of pro painters were kept very busy indeed. 

 

I would think the turning point started around 17 years ago as gradually the toy-like polished handrails and what-not started to disappear and more accurate representations of locos emerged. Remember two pieces of round wire to represent slidebars? Some of us had turned to the USA in the 1980's for locos with drive systems that left this country in the stone age. When Hornby turned, it turned good-style and their more recent models are better than many a scratch or kit built locos that ever passed though my sprayshop. I have some Oxford wagons and they too are a delight and run very well indeed, which is more than I can say for one particular companies stuff, so I await with baited breath the BR livery 'Dean Goods'.  Oxby or Hornford should be a good working partnership.

Edited October 6, 2017 by coachmann

[Anglian]

Equally it is foolish to deny that given the current state of affairs regarding Brexit, Government, and opposition party policies, the economic prospects for the next few years are far from certain. True everything might go splendidly and the 'doom mongers' be proved wrong, but for those of us who prefer to look at facts rather than jingoistic statements the current situation is not exactly encouraging.

 

The Stock Market has already proven that, at least in the short term and contrary to the prophecies of some doom mongers, the UK economy hasn't tanked as was predicted immediately after the Brexit vote. One thing I can almost guarantee is that the next recession that comes along, in the grand cyclical nature of these things, will almost certainly be blamed, by certain parties, on Brexit. The reality is that at any time at which the economy is doing well anybody could legitimately claim that we are headed for a recession and technically they wouldn't be wrong. The only variable being how long it takes to get there.

 

I've no idea if this is true or not but my feeling is that Oxford thought it would be easier to make OO model railway items than it has actually proven to be. Certainly their press releases prior to the launch of their Adams Radial appeared to indicate that they had put in an awful lot of effort to get it right, when the reality was that they put in a awful lot of effort and price point aside missed the mark that Hornby subsequently hit. That Oxford thought that filling under a boiler would be acceptable in today's model railway market, to me at least, indicates that they didn't fully understand that market. Hornby clearly think their new CEO has the ability to turn them around. I hope so but wait to see what transpires. The model railway world without Hornby would be a rather bleak prospect to consider.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Anglian

[Dunsignalling]

But that's the pricing on the current business model, with a mix of fairly accurate and not at all accurate models. What would it be if the whole business was based around cheap models? Didn't someone mention the old M7 priced much higher than the new H?

You'd only find out that if Hornby got out of one end or the other of their quality spectrum and flogged it off to somebody else.

 

By "the old M7" I take it you mean the current one, not the old Tri-ang effort with the 6' 6" driving wheels?

 

Having taken one apart and (eventually) got it back together, I'd estimate the darn things must take twice as long to assemble as anything else they make. The H appears to be designed for much greater ease of production, presumably the result of lessons Hornby learned from the M7. 

 

John

Edited October 6, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[jjb1970]

Quality and fidelity to prototype are often considered as being synonymous by model enthusiasts (I’ll admit I’m often guilty) yet they are really two distinct and separate attributes. Fidelity to prototype of OO models has improved enormously over the last 20 years and British modellers now enjoy the same levels of attention to detail and realism as European and American HO modellers. As well as fidelity to prototype, we also now enjoy high specification mechanisms offering silky smooth, quiet and powerful performance. Yet I do think that quality in terms of build quality and durability have actually declined in the same period. Part of that is down to the models being much more intricate and incorporating many separately applied parts but greater intricacy and number of parts does not explain the incidences of mazak rot, incorrect wiring, binding mechanisms, motors dying to name just some of the things either friends or I have experienced. And what makes this more significant is that there is much less provision of spare parts and it seems that models are becoming disposable items. And it is not just British OO, the older Marklin models were often a bit crude (some of them were similar to OO in terms of detail and fidelity to prototype) but they were legendary for their build quality and solidity. I haven’t been that impressed by the build quality of some of their sister company Trix’s models in recent years even though the levels of detail and finish have been excellent. I have Roco models I bought in the 80’s and early 90’s which I still play with and I’m not sure that I ever had a dud Roco model in that era yet over the last couple of years I’ve been a bit disappointed by the quality of some new Roco models (indicating it is not just about manufacturing in China). I have a few Japanese made brass models of US trains which are older than I am and which are still solid performers and very easy to service and maintain despite having been made to levels of fidelity to prototype that are still pretty decent even today.

 

PS. Can we avoid another Brexit discussion please, it won't end well. Maybe it's just me but I hear enough about that subject in life.

[Vistisen]

Well that is a rather bold statement isn't it and rather jumping the gun? I am sure you will not see any significant changes in import tariffs as it would be harmful to the economies of both the UK and Europe.

 

Or do you know something that we and most of the rest of Europe (including governments) do not?

 

Roy

 

There are NO shops selling any British model railway products in Denmark anyway. I have just logged on to the three first google results and searched for Peco which I thought at least might be there, but no results. (plenty of Piko, but no Peco!). I suspect it could be only amongst expat pensioners in Spain that there might be a market large enough to support in a local shop. Us who do buy UK items out here at the moment are enjoying the weak pound. But I'm afraid that this is only temporary as I predict the British manufacturers disappearing as the cost becomes too high and the leasure budget shrinks in the UK.

 

The people I feel really sorry for are Brits who model European railways. Their Fleischmann stuff must now cost a fortune to import.

[Eddies Mate]

So Corgi the dying duck of the Hornby collective  is going to have a CEO that is also the Owner of one of it's competitors ?

 

Good move Hornby, lets hope you are using blanks, otherwise they could be seen as shooting themselves in the foot.

[Eddies Mate]

There are NO shops selling any British model railway products in Denmark anyway. I have just logged on to the three first google results and searched for Peco which I thought at least might be there, but no results. (plenty of Piko, but no Peco!). I suspect it could be only amongst expat pensioners in Spain that there might be a market large enough to support in a local shop. Us who do buy UK items out here at the moment are enjoying the weak pound. But I'm afraid that this is only temporary as I predict the British manufacturers disappearing as the cost becomes too high and the leasure budget shrinks in the UK.

 

The people I feel really sorry for are Brits who model European railways. Their Fleischmann stuff must now cost a fortune to import.

 

Why would modellers in mainland Europe want to buy Peco products ? When track like Tillig and Fleischmann is far superior to anything produced in the UK/China ?