Hornby APPOINTS NEW CEO

[Cor-onGRT4]

As someone from across the ditch, reading this fascinates me. I grew up with the notion of the Lima and Hornby brands as mainstays, and having Hornby points under the tree at Christmas was always a far better prospect than the Lima's. So the ingrained nature of the brand to those outside of the UK is a thing worth remembering.

 

Post Brexit, there'll not be a model shop in Europe stocking Hornby, Peco, Humbrol, Airfix, or any other UK similar manufacturer, as the import duties and tariffs won't make it feasible. (Hornby trainsets, track, scaledale is stocked in all the big box toy outfits in Ireland, and do well at Santa time, though we're a fraction of the UK market, I'd imagine)

 

The idea of purchasing a few whitemetal bits from the likes of dart castings will no longer be an option unless I go meet a shady character in an underground car park in Belfast, to sneak it across the border!

 

Brexit couldn't come at a worse time for the potential "phoenix rising" of Hornby, and the hobby in general..*

 

 R. 

 

*Hope I'm wrong...

That would'nt make any difference, because the last 6 years there is barely any new Hornby or Bachmann railway items to get here in any shop.

There was one shop in the south of the Netherlands in a small village near the Belgium border.

This shop imported Hornby by them self, they did had a very good stock from every new item, but they retirred and shut the shop, since then nothing to get here, because there was'nt anyone who took over the job.

And a small shop in Gouda near Rotterdam, who had some OO models, but also retirred.

Further non at all.

For Bachmann the same, there is an importer, but you never sure if you get the things you placed an order for.

Nothing in stock.

So nearly everyone who collect Bachmann or Hornby place their orders in the Uk or go to the UK.

Airfix , Humbrol  and some others are available from my childhood 50 years ago.

And that was before EU exits, no problem then, so why would it be now? after brexit.

The problem here with britisch railmodelling is, barely anyone is modelling OO in the Netherlands or arround.

So it has ever bin a problem to get OO stuff here.

Not any difference after the Brexit.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Cor-onGRT4

[Roy Langridge]

There are NO shops selling any British model railway products in Denmark anyway. I have just logged on to the three first google results and searched for Peco which I thought at least might be there, but no results. (plenty of Piko, but no Peco!). I suspect it could be only amongst expat pensioners in Spain that there might be a market large enough to support in a local shop. Us who do buy UK items out here at the moment are enjoying the weak pound. But I'm afraid that this is only temporary as I predict the British manufacturers disappearing as the cost becomes too high and the leasure budget shrinks in the UK.

 

The people I feel really sorry for are Brits who model European railways. Their Fleischmann stuff must now cost a fortune to import.

https://rckongen.dk/produkt-kategori/modeltog/peco/?

 

http://www.godstoget-hobby.dk/shop/311-skinner-peco-code-75---h0/

 

http://www.felderbanen.dk/Shop/List/Peco/20/1

 

Hmm, I may beg to differ.

 

Roy

[frobisher]

Unless I've missed an announcement that the EU will be imposing punitive tariffs on the UK, I would strongly disagree.

 

The worst that is likely is that there is no trade deal and existing tariffs apply.

Well, no, if there is no trade deal then we don't get to keep existing tariffs, we default to WTO tariffs...

[tomparryharry]

What's all this malarkey about importing Hornby stuff? Nothing wrong with a Triang Nellie and a couple of coaches. It was ok in my day!

 

And we had Super 4 track as well!

 

You kids, don't know your born....

 

Harumph!

[Dunsignalling]

Think this is getting a little political now, however the stagnation in brexit talks is due to the intransigence of the EU. WTO tariffs would not be the end of the world.

Which is just as well, given that it seems increasingly likely to be where all this is heading.

 

My personal observation suggests that Juncker and Barnier aren't, and never will be, interested in any deal other than the UK caving in to all their demands.

 

IMHO, nothing substantive will (or probably, even can) be agreed until after we are out, not by 2019 and not during any half baked "transitional period".

 

 

John (formerly a remainer, whose eyes have been opened over the past few months)

Edited October 6, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

There are NO shops selling any British model railway products in Denmark anyway. I have just logged on to the three first google results and searched for Peco which I thought at least might be there, but no results. (plenty of Piko, but no Peco!). I suspect it could be only amongst expat pensioners in Spain that there might be a market large enough to support in a local shop. Us who do buy UK items out here at the moment are enjoying the weak pound. But I'm afraid that this is only temporary as I predict the British manufacturers disappearing as the cost becomes too high and the leasure budget shrinks in the UK.

 

The people I feel really sorry for are Brits who model European railways. Their Fleischmann stuff must now cost a fortune to import.

Modelling/collecting UK prototype models outside the UK has always been predominantly an expat activity. Very few non-Brits get involved.

 

Modelling/collecting mainland European models in the UK has always been very expensive - only the degree varies. 

 

John

Edited October 6, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Coryton]

Well, no, if there is no trade deal then we don't get to keep existing tariffs, we default to WTO tariffs...

 

Let me rephrase what I said.

 

With no trade deal, the UK will presumably be treated the same as any other non-EU country, and imports will be subject to the existing tariffs for imports into the EU from non-EU countries. These are the ones I was quoting (which can currently be looked up on the HMRC web site because they are of course the tariffs currently paid to import into the UK from outside the EU).

 

There are currently no tariffs for EU "imports" from the UK (or vice versa) to keep or otherwise*.

 

But in many cases, including "toy" trains, the tariff goes from not existing to being in place but at 0%.

 

* Actually not true because there is excise duty on alcohol and tobacco, but that's not relevant here.

 

(Edited to remove accidentally duplicated text)

Edited October 6, 2017 by Coryton

[BG John]

You'd only find out that if Hornby got out of one end or the other of their quality spectrum and flogged it off to somebody else.

 

By "the old M7" I take it you mean the current one, not the old Tri-ang effort with the 6' 6" driving wheels?

 

Having taken one apart and (eventually) got it back together, I'd estimate the darn things must take twice as long to assemble as anything else they make. The H appears to be designed for much greater ease of production, presumably the result of lessons Hornby learned from the M7. 

 

John

Just going by what someone wrote the other day. The M7 I had was made by Tri-ang!

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst I'm not that surprised, I'd have thought there would have been more discussion about Tim Mulhall's role. Whilst he is a less high profile modelling name than Kohler, I'm intrigued as to what Mulhall will be doing. The announcement says:

 

"Tim Mulhall specialises in building routes to market and strategic sales development. Tim has also spent 20 years as a business entrepreneur in the model and hobby industry, five of which working directly with Hornby through OnTracks, a business which managed the distribution of Hornby international products."

 

What are the routes to market and strategic sales that he'll be focusing on?

 

David

 

The gentleman has an interesting background - he is a current employee of Oxford diecast (one of the total of 15 people they employed as at 31 December 2016) so is thus obviously a known factor as far as Lyndon Davies is concerned and s had charge of the company's sales development programme since 2010 although during that time he has also been Sales Director of Golden Valley Hobbies and he walso the Strategy Director for OnTracks between 1999 and 2014.  He has also worked in strategic change in the insurance 'industry' and in insurance retail for one of the major insurance groups.

 

In other words he brings experience of organisational change plus sales development with him.  However, and whether or not I've got the right bloke is a matter I'm happy to leave open to correction (there can't be many folk called Tim working for Oxford?),  I've an idea he's the person whose been very much involved in developing Oxford Rail in particular and might even be the person who has signed stuff off for production after design has been completed in China.  If I am correct in that view I believe he might also have been the person responsible for selecting what would go into Oxford Rail's range and one who plays his cards very close to his chest. 

[Revolution Ben]

 

The point of the analogy, which I had hoped was sufficiently obvious and I apologise if it wasn't, is that offering a quality product was not enough to save a company, whereas offering a cheap product (no one has every accused Ryanair of offering a quality experience, so far as I am aware) made a competitor profitable.

 

 

I think I read this differently.  Monarch in the last year flew more passengers than before, but for less profit, and failed.  Ryanair are struggling to retain staff (pilots) it would appear, and are themselves struggling, because they are trying too hard to keep prices artificially low.

 

With this in mind, the recalibration by Bachmann a year or so ago of their prices seems to have been very sensible.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Dunsignalling]

Just going by what someone wrote the other day. The M7 I had was made by Tri-ang!

If it has an open-frame motor, it definitely is.

 

John

[SteveC32]

A

Edited October 6, 2017 by SteveC32

[adb968008]

Barrier and Juncker don’t care, they don’t need to.

 

Just like our trains come from China, they can quite easily arrive at the Hornby Rivarossi, Joeuf or Electrotren locations (oh didn’t they close the Madrid office ?).

 

Whilst Boris can talk about German cars and effect on sales... Merc’s and BMWs are made in South Africa and imported to the UK directly.. so Brexit doesn’t affect the EU here either.

 

I suppose French wine might be an issue, but whilst we can source from elsewhere, Ozzie’s are already prepping up, I’m sure there’s enough drunks in the EU govt alone to soak it up.

 

Brexit doesn’t affect much other than EU prestige being hurt and the inevitable kick backs of anti-Britishness many have felt for years anyway. If that mean Brits widen their horizons beyond the costas that’s not a bad thing, we still have a few sunny islands in remote shores (i’d love to go to St Helena and Ascension) and if some money was thrown at them instead of Spain that could benefit us all.

[Legend]

I think I read this differently.  Monarch in the last year flew more passengers than before, but for less profit, and failed.  Ryanair are struggling to retain staff (pilots) it would appear, and are themselves struggling, because they are trying too hard to keep prices artificially low.

 

With this in mind, the recalibration by Bachmann a year or so ago of their prices seems to have been very sensible.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Oh I thought it was because of Chinese labour rates.................

[Vistisen]

Why would modellers in mainland Europe want to buy Peco products ? When track like Tillig and Fleischmann is far superior to anything produced in the UK/China ?

 

I just thought that if anything British could sell in Europe it would be HO track

[Vistisen]

https://rckongen.dk/produkt-kategori/modeltog/peco/?

 

http://www.godstoget-hobby.dk/shop/311-skinner-peco-code-75---h0/

 

http://www.felderbanen.dk/Shop/List/Peco/20/1

 

Hmm, I may beg to differ.

 

Roy

 

I apologise  for the error, You are right but the shops I looked at had nothing.

[Andy Hayter]

Why would modellers in mainland Europe want to buy Peco products ? When track like Tillig and Fleischmann is far superior to anything produced in the UK/China ?

 

 

Perhaps because they consider it as being quite good. 

 

From the French model press I would say that the 12vDC market is split between Roco, Tillig and Peco; with Tillig certainly in third position.   [Of course for 16V AC Maerklin reigns supreme - and alone.]

Peco may well have stolen a march with modellers of the recent times with their bi-block track - which is uniquely French.  The bullhead track will also attract its supporters.  

 

Tillig track is distinctly German in design and while I personally rate it, is somewhat more fragile than other makes.

As for Fleischmann, here in France I cannot immediately think of a supplier - although I am sure a 10second search on the internet would yield results.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[Coryton]

 [Of course for 16V AC Maerklin reigns supreme - and alone.]

 

Didn't Peco used to make stud contact strip for their track?

 

Maybe they still do.

[Mike Storey]

On Brexit v Toy Trains, it is unwise to resurrect the perennial arguments for and against. The EU negotiators, whom many on here and in the media love to blame for anything whatsoever, are acting to the instructions, and unanimous insistence, of 27 countries. Personalising the issue is just barmy, but is a tactic as old as the hills, used by those who have no other argument in their favour. Let's try to be more objective about the eventual outcome. What we seem to be missing on this thread are two far more important issues:

 

1. What the international "market" thinks - it does not think much of negotiations so far, given the fall in the pound and the downgrading of the UK's credit rating, twice so far. This makes importing more expensive and borrowing more expensive. This may or may not be "cyclical", but it is real. The only argument is over how long it might last and how bad it might get.

 

2. Interest rates - there is growing indication that these will rise, and rise significantly over time. Borrowing becomes even more expensive, savings rates will improve and expectations on dividends will rise accordingly. To some extent, this partially resolves Item 1, but has limited duration, as past experience shows.

 

Brazil has just increased its import tariffs for WTO code 95 (includes model railways) from 20% to 35%. The USA under Trump intends to make similar changes, moving away from free trade, as with the recent Boeing-inspired punitive increases to aerospace tariffs from Canada (and thus Northern Ireland). Whilst not relevant to Hornby, being about alleged state subsidies, it is indicative of a world moving towards protectionism for the moment, despite all resolutions from others to the contrary. Not a great time to be promoting a future based on free trade.

 

Regardless of Brexit pro or anti arguments, Hornby are facing a perfect storm of external factors, given their current financial position and dependence on overseas manufacture, plus the potential for reduced domestic demand (by virtue of reduced discretional spending power). This move towards industry consolidation and further evaluation of strategy, can only be a good, probably essential move. There will always be a well off section of society who can continue to buy their product, but the rest are more questionable and price will be key to that. How to balance between the two, and still make a decent return, is key.

 

As with the likes of ARM and the growing list of cheap purchases by overseas buyers of British companies and brands, I would not be surprised to see something similar emulating Sanda Kan not long from now, with Hornby/Oxford. Perhaps this is what they are preparing for? Sorry not to be ra-ra-ra, British Dream and all that. Cough.

[dibber25]

I think I read this differently.  Monarch in the last year flew more passengers than before, but for less profit, and failed.  Ryanair are struggling to retain staff (pilots) it would appear, and are themselves struggling, because they are trying too hard to keep prices artificially low.

 

With this in mind, the recalibration by Bachmann a year or so ago of their prices seems to have been very sensible.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

I don't think any analogy between cut prices airlines and model railways will work. Airlines essentially cut prices in order to eliminate a competitor. (Remember BA and Laker Airways?) All that would happen if Hornby sells product at less than it costs is that Hornby will have mounting losses. It wouldn't put Bachmann or anyone else out of business. There's an infinite choice of airlines, so you can choose what you spend. If you want a particular model then, except for a few duplications, you don't have a choice of manufacturer. I think it will be essential for manufacturers to keep recalibrating their prices while both the currency fluctuations and Chinese manufacturing costs are generally on the rise. (CJL)

[jjb1970]

Is recalibrating prices the new name for price rises?

[LBRJ]

Using the Low Cost no frills airline approach for Hornby would mean obscure out of the way toy shops* paying Hornby for the privilege of stocking Hornby products - Then hoping the would be Hornby customers buy something else while they are there!

 

*Actually "Garden Centres" would be a better analogy - It could possibly work for them

[phil-b259]

The Stock Market has already proven that, at least in the short term and contrary to the prophecies of some doom mongers, the UK economy hasn't tanked as was predicted immediately after the Brexit vote.

 

I would point put that seeing as we haven't actually exited the EU yet and absolutely noting as changed re the trading environment (the currency markets excepted) since 2015 its hardly surprising that the economy hasn't 'tanked' as you put it.

 

However the closer we get to withdrawal day with either no deal in place or alternatively one that whacks on loads of extra costs on business, then things will change. Business are getting increasingly jittery about the future and as such the point I made still stands - as with Monach Airlines come 2019 Hornby might suddenly find the trading environment has taken a turn for the worse with serious consequences for their cashflow given model railways are definitely a 'luxury item' as it were when it comes to consumer spending.

 

Therefore all this talk of Hornby adopting Oxfords standards or the opposite happening is therefore rather pointless in the grader scheme of things given the whole process of brining new models to market takes well over 12months from start to finish. The new CEO of Hornby has been appointed to ensure the majority shareholder for one reason only - to ensure the money keeps coming in. Hornby may be recovering well but it still has an awful lot of debit attached to the company and it operates in a sector of the economy that can get hit hard by any economic downturn. Thus If the decision is made that certain cutbacks need to happen to ensure the viability of Hornby (or indeed Oxford) what the members of RMweb may say about it will count for little, particularly as we hear that despite their deficiencies, Oxfords products still sell well to the model community at large.

[Clearwater]

The Stock Market has already proven that, at least in the short term and contrary to the prophecies of some doom mongers, the UK economy hasn't tanked as was predicted immediately after the Brexit vote. .

One reason the index hasn't fallen is because a large number of the bigger components of the index have dollar or euro denominated cash flows (eg BP, Rio Tinto and even National Grid owns substantial US assets). As such, as sterling has fallen, the value of those stocks in sterling has risen impacting the overall level of the index.

 

Personally, I feel its way too early to judge what impact Brexit will have, good or bad, we wont know for several years.

[Andy Hayter]

Didn't Peco used to make stud contact strip for their track?

 

Maybe they still do.

 

They did (maybe do) but I have never seen any layout that uses it.  Maerklin have moved on from the days of third rail (which is when Peco strip dates from) and their centre stud sleepers are a wold away from 1970s track.

 

 

To add to my earlier post about Roco and Peco, a few months ago, Mike Storey suggested that Peco was the first choice of serious French modellers for track .  I suggested that Roco had an equal standing.  Since then I have kept a mental record of Roco versus Peco in the most recent editions of the French magazines (I don't get them all so this is not completely scientific).  Since then I have seen Peco used in preference to Roco on about a 2:1 ratio.  

 

So In France at least, Peco would seem to be the track of choice for modellers.

 

My experience in Germany was different, but that market is driven by 16V AC, and so the reporting in the model press is also slanted and a true comparison of 12V DC kit is rather more difficult.   Tillig, Fleischmann and Roco certainly feature strongly in what is left of the market.  Peco however was also there.