Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[Anglian]

Judging by the warm reception these new bullhead points have had, Messrs Peco will be no doubt be planning additions to the range. We mustn't expect a complete range all at once, development and production costs have to be covered, maybe two or three types (L&R) will appear every so often? So what type would be the absolute top priority and would sell well? I think a long diamond crossing next, so people can construct double junctions and more complicated arrangements. Would a single slip be the next most useful and popular item, albeit more costly?

    Off the top of my head, I seem to remember that a lot of BR Modernization era diesels, were designed to negotiate a minimum curve of four and a half chains, in old money. One chain in distance was 22yards, so 4.5 chains equals 99 yards, which equals 297 feet. If you divide 297 by 76 (4mm scale), it comes our near enough to 4ft radius track. The previous Peco flat-bottom large radius points were nominally 5ft radius, the medium radius were 3ft, the small were 2ft. So in other words, if modelling finescale, the large radius at 5ft should be a starting point, leading to even larger radii types. However, I acknowledge that we have to compromize to fit a given space, and an element of condensing is tolerable, making a bullhead near 3ft useful. As for a bullhead 2ft radius, I can't see that selling well, and wouldn't look too good, being strictly only of use in industrial environments, with very small locos. 

          For the record, Peco Streamline curved points were 6ft outside/2.5ft inside, 2.5ft is the absolute minimum i'd build large loco kits to run on, even this requires serious surgery on locos like Britannias, other people often build to run on 3ft minimum radius. As Larry mentioned a day or two ago, the Peco double-slips are quite tight, equivalent to somewhere between 2.5ft and 3ft, any new bullhead design might require a longer unit to relieve it to a larger radius. I hope my maths are right, perhaps someone can double check the figures?!

                                                                                       Cheers, Brian.

 

 

A long single slip next. With bit of luck Peco may already have the next products designed and ready to begin manufacture. If not they might want to jump them up their list – it's possible that the instant success of this range might have taken them a little by surprise. However, it does demonstrate the latent demand for such a product.

 

I wonder if the success of Peco will encourage or discourage the competition.

[dhjgreen]

Good stock at Arcadia Rail yesterday

[Joseph_Pestell]

A long single slip next. With bit of luck Peco may already have the next products designed and ready to begin manufacture. If not they might want to jump them up their list – it's possible that the instant success of this range might have taken them a little by surprise. However, it does demonstrate the latent demand for such a product.

 

I wonder if the success of Peco will encourage or discourage the competition.

 

Nice as that would be, a "long" single inside slip won't work with the 12 degree angle of the turnout. If they had had a model railway on the SS Enterprise, the chief engineer would have told you that " you canna beat the laws of geometry".

 

For the majority of Peco's target audience the 2' radius curve of a 12 degree inside slip will probably not be a problem. It hasn't been for users of the Code 75 FB.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[tender]

Nice as that would be, a "long" single inside slip won't work with the 12 degree angle of the turnout. If they had had a model railway on the SS Enterprise, the chief engineer would have told you that " you canna beat the laws of geometry".

 

For the majority of Peco's target audience the 2' radius curve of a 12 degree inside slip will probably not be a problem. It hasn't been for users of the Code 75 FB.

Not a problem maybe, but a large rebuilt West Country, Britannia or Pacific class with a fixed pony truck and flangless wheel does look a bit silly when it virtually comes off the rails.

[davidgallen]

Another bonus to these fine points is they are quieter than the equivalent flat bottom versions, with hinged blades, as stock runs through.

 

It does need a touch more care on fixing down to ensure the pressure of any fastening, pins or screws does not distort the top from being level.

 

The bending of the point seems OK, but carefully check the gauge at the max amount of bend. This flexibility allows much finer visual and mechanical performance, with smoother curve transitions.

 

Laying more track and points over the weekend on Middlechurch Marsh layout, some flat bottom track to remove first.

 

Stephen.

How much of the web are you cutting to bend the points?

[Chamby]

Hi David,  this shows how I have cut the web for a gently curved point:  four cuts on the curved rail, three on the straight.  I think I would probably cut them the other way round (3 and 4) for a wye, though I can't explain why!  You could probably cut more but I'm being very cautious regarding geometry around the frog and the blades.  

 

EDIT:  I would definitely recommend that you do NOT cut the webbing between the sleepers with slide chairs: these do not have any additional webbing beneath the blades and cutting here creates a weak spot that bends preferentially, creating a 'kink' in the rail... not good!     

 

Phil.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Chamby

[The Stationmaster]

Plenty (less two LH this afternoon ) in stock at Alton Model Centre.

 

The obvious one to go for next has to be the next most common piece of pointwork, i.e. a single slip - far more common than a diamond crossing and typical of many 'small station' track layouts.

[Anglian]

I agree given the steam railways aversion to facing points. The single slip must have been the means of entry into very many small station goods yards.

[Pint of Adnams]

The obvious one to go for next has to be the next most common piece of pointwork, i.e. a single slip - far more common than a diamond crossing and typical of many 'small station' track layouts.

In fact the obvious one is the double slip, for you can use one where you might only want a single slip movement whereas you cannot use a single slip when you when both slipping movements. That is probably why the Peco HOm, 83 Line and 0 gauge BH ranges only have a double slip in them.

 

The double slip is the most effective space saving arrangement and for that reason was well-used by the GER amongst other railways, more so than single slips.

[coachmann]

In fact the obvious one is the double slip, for you can use one where you might only want a single slip movement whereas you cannot use a single slip when you when both slipping movements. That is probably why the Peco HOm, 83 Line and 0 gauge BH ranges only have a double slip in them.

 

The double slip is the most effective space saving arrangement and for that reason was well-used by the GER amongst other railways, more so than single slips.

I do not have your evidence that double slips were used more than single slips or in what context. Double slips may be useful for model trains, but in real life you could not have double slips if they were 'facing' on a main running line. A regular use for a single slip was to make a simple crossover between up and down tracks into a lead into the yard. Trains could not be accidentally diverted into a yard. Double Slips would be of greatest use in sidings or on multi track formations such as the approach to Paddington etc.

[tomparryharry]

The double slip seems to have been something of a 'rare beast' on steam routes. That said, I can think of 2 locations off the top of my head. Ventnor on the Isle of Eight, and Nantgarw on the Cardiff Railway, between Upper Boat & Taffs Well. I can well remember the double slips well into the 1980's, and both well maintained.

 

A couple of years ago, the Havenstreet guys recovered 2 complete double slips from Southampton docks.

 

safe operation in real life is a problem for a slip, especially where the facing point lock is needed. I can't thing of one in high speed real life.

 

Ian.

Edited November 17, 2017 by tomparryharry

[Oldddudders]

In fact the obvious one is the double slip, for you can use one where you might only want a single slip movement whereas you cannot use a single slip when you when both slipping movements. That is probably why the Peco HOm, 83 Line and 0 gauge BH ranges only have a double slip in them.

 

The double slip is the most effective space saving arrangement and for that reason was well-used by the GER amongst other railways, more so than single slips.

Two of the the three track ranges you have quoted are intended for models of non-UK prototypes. The only wholesale use of double slips in the UK prototype tends to be in complex station throats where reversible working is provided, full track-circuiting is universal, and safety is assured.

 

As modellers we adore double slips and three-way points because they save space. The UK prototype, particularly in earlier times, values safety above all.

[RFS]

Regardless of what the prototypical usage of single and double slips may be, Peco are producing products for the model railway market and no doubt their historical sales figures for these slips will tell them which one is the most important as far as modellers are concerned. 

[Brian Kirby]

These new large radius bullhead points are exactly the same length and angle, as their flat-bottom older cousins in the Peco range, they can be regarded as interchangeable. In which case Peco are likely to stick with their existing geometry, at least for the foreseeable future, they will probably duplicate the existing range with bullhead equivalents. Cost wise, these new points are more than twice the price of flat-bottom versions, but they are well worth the money. Existing Peco Double Slips are nearly three times the price of f/b large points, so a new bullhead double slip could cost £75 or more (at today's prices), but again they should be worth it, don't start moaning about the price after they've been produced.

         Double slips and single slips are just as useful as each other, albeit in different circumstances. As has been said already, single slips were a common sight on running lines requiring reversal into goods yards, double slips were never much seen on fast main lines, due to the facing turnout, but there were rare exceptions, they were normally found in slow-speed areas. So both versions were common sights in steam/early diesel days, single slips are rarer now, and double-slips are avoided where possible, due to cost of manufacture and added maintenance.

         Within the Peco range, the long diamond crossings are cheaper than the large points, so a bullhead version would be affordable, and presumably easier to produce? The staggered 3-Way would be another good one to update, a common sight years ago, a rarer sight nowadays, but again could be costly per unit? Be careful what you wish for.       BK 

[Pint of Adnams]

I do not have your evidence that double slips were used more than single slips or in what context. Double slips may be useful for model trains, but in real life you could not have double slips if they were 'facing' on a main running line. A regular use for a single slip was to make a simple crossover between up and down tracks into a lead into the yard. Trains could not be accidentally diverted into a yard. Double Slips would be of greatest use in sidings or on multi track formations such as the approach to Paddington etc.

 

 

Two of the the three track ranges you have quoted are intended for models of non-UK prototypes. The only wholesale use of double slips in the UK prototype tends to be in complex station throats where reversible working is provided, full track-circuiting is universal, and safety is assured.

As modellers we adore double slips and three-way points because they save space. The UK prototype, particularly in earlier times, values safety above all.

 

Fenchurch Street (London) approaches, main running lines, LNER 1935. QED.

 

 

[chris p bacon]

I do not have your evidence that double slips were used more than single slips or in what context.

 

 

The double slip seems to have been something of a 'rare beast' on steam routes. 

 

 

I don't know about other locations but IIRC at Sandy on the GN 1911 plan, there are 7 Double slips as well as 2 (?) single slips, they are not confined to the yards either.

 

It was an unusually busy location on the GN main line.

[Brian Kirby]

 

         Double slips and single slips are just as useful as each other, albeit in different circumstances. As has been said already, single slips were a common sight on running lines requiring reversal into goods yards, double slips were never much seen on fast main lines, due to the facing turnout, but there were rare exceptions, they were normally found in slow-speed areas.      BK 

Like other important stations, the station throat at Fenchurch Street was a slow-speed area (as I stated above), so yes double slips can be used, but double slips on fast running sections of main lines were very few and far between, on grounds of safety, whereas single-slips only with trailing connections, would be a common sight on Britain's main lines.     BK

[Anglian]

As I understand it the Midland railway had a pathological fear of facing points more so than any other company. Having been doing some research this evening I think the single-slip access into a goods yard of a small station was very much a Midland and GWR practise. The only double slips I've found quickly this evening on the Midland on main running lines were two at Buxton which was a cramped terminus. 

 

My local GER station had a double slip in the goods yard but no facing points.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Anglian

[newbryford]

Still plenty of single slips on mainline use.

 

There's one near me that's still bullhead, whilst being surrounded by FB, including the trailing point on the other line making up the crossover.

 

Cheers,

Micvk

[Brian Kirby]

Still plenty of single slips on mainline use.

 

There's one near me that's still bullhead

That's the issue, you've seen ONE near you, but you'll find they are no longer as common, as they used to be. Regarding double slips at Buxton, again this is a slow-speed area. Let's not say main lines, let's say you only normally find double slips in slow-speed areas. Of course someone will be busy now, trying to find a photo of the odd exception, but that's the whole point (no pun), they wouldn't be typical in such locations.    BK

[faa77]

Approaches to Fenchurch St, London, LNER 1935.jpg

 

 

 

Fenchurch Street (London) approaches, main running lines, LNER 1935. QED.

 

Is that the viaduct alongside Pinchin Street? I have always wondered where that lead to. Do you have anymore photos?!

[autocoach]

The double slip seems to have been something of a 'rare beast' on steam routes. That said, I can think of 2 locations off the top of my head. Ventnor on the Isle of Eight, and Nantgarw on the Cardiff Railway, between Upper Boat & Taffs Well. I can well remember the double slips well into the 1980's, and both well maintained.

 

A couple of years ago, the Havenstreet guys recovered 2 complete double slips from Southampton docks.

 

safe operation in real life is a problem for a slip, especially where the facing point lock is needed. I can't thing of one in high speed real life.

 

Ian.

Single slips in just about every North Cornwall and many LSWR goods yards west of Salisbury....There was a double slip in the revised Padstow trackage for the lengthened turntable.

[Oldddudders]

There was a double slip in the revised Padstow trackage for the lengthened turntable.

That fits well with Brian Kirby’s observation about low speed. Anyone hurrying there might be in for an early bath!

[Guest]

Is that the viaduct alongside Pinchin Street? I have always wondered where that lead to. Do you have anymore photos?!

 

Someone on RMWeb asked the same question a while back. Link below.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127222-abandoned-arches-near-fenchurch-street/

[Mallard60022]

Single slips in just about every North Cornwall and many LSWR goods yards west of Salisbury....There was a double slip in the revised Padstow trackage for the lengthened turntable.

Seaton Junction Down Yard had 1 double; the Up yard had two adjacent doubles. How do I know this..............?

Phil of SOSJ.