OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[No Decorum]

8 hours ago, Antony Farrell said:

This makes me feel old, I still have a Mainline prairie and Manor. These have been sitting in their boxes for decades now. Wonder if they will still run?

When Bachmann brought out the South Wales 0-6-2T with a new chassis I got one. I also dug out my existing one, which is so old, I have no record of when I bought it but it must date from the mid-80s or earlier. It was very rough and noisy but I opened it and oiled all round, including the motor spindle. It was transformed. It was quieter, if not as quiet as the new version, and it ran almost as smoothly as the new version. I hope that helps.

 

As Mr. Kohler says, it’s for keeps.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, GeraldH said:

They did make a few other improvements with additional separate wire handrails, see through spoked wheels on the trucks and a much better paint job.

Yes, I forgot about the solid pony wheels on the Airfix.

I wonder whether the body was also given a work over as the smokebox door looks better, although the better smokebox handrail knobs might affect the appearance

Then why they kept the Airfix driving wheels & cylinder assembly?

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, DCB said:

 

It would make a fabulous group test, all the iterations, Airfix, Airfix badged as Mainline, Hornby, different Hornby, Dapol.   Could add a Wills 61XX  or Farish 81XX.   My Triang Chassis 5 pole H/D Wheeled Farish still performs as main banker, alongside a Wills 61XX despite attempts to replace with Airfix, with and without traction tyres, and two very different iterations of Hornby.  In fact I have sold on 4 Airfix / Hornby prairies recently as they were such hard work to make and keep running.  Don't have a Dapol but have the Mogul which needed a lot of work to keep on the rails.   But a group test would be good.  I reckon Original Airfix 1st for haulage, Ditto minus traction tyres worst. Dapol if its like the Mogul 1st for smoothness.  Appearance.  Pass, and top speed, probably Airfix.. Yep reckon its a win for Airfix.   Anyway back to fitting Airfix 61XX Kit tanks to a Mainline Mogul for a 3150, before anyone releases a no 4 boiler Big Big Prairie.

Please explain.

I have 2 of the Hornbyised ex Airfix 61XX and I can't fault the running. Much heavier than the recent release and with a more powerful motor it beats them hands down for haulage.

 

Mogul not staying on the rails?

 

I had a Farish 81XX, IMHO an abysmal chassis, motor was so-so and the wheels showed their age, with undersize flangeless centre drivers and plastic pony wheels.

The motion was very crude with totally unrealistic slidebars and no piston rod

The body, also very crude, was the only bit worth(?)  saving. Possibly for a rather inaccurate looking County 4-4-2T

 

[boxbrownie]

51 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

As mentioned elsewhere, they aren’t firebox doors, they are glare screens.

You don’t mind if I call them firebox doors do you? 

[No Decorum]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

You don’t mind if I call them firebox doors do you? 

I don’t mind in the least but the firehole doors don’t move and the glare screens do.

[Ian Hargrave]

11 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I don’t mind in the least but the firehole doors don’t move and the glare screens do.

Clarke Gable to Vivien Leigh in GWTW…….” Frankly my dear I don’t etc……”  Sorry.

[DCB]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Please explain.

I have 2 of the Hornbyised ex Airfix 61XX and I can't fault the running. Much heavier than the recent release and with a more powerful motor it beats them hands down for haulage.

We have two Prairies which share banking duties as we have a long 1 in 30 ish gradient,  a Wills 61XX and a Triang/ Farish/HD bitza. both built 30 odd years ago, both push 17 H/D wagons up the 1 in 30 ish grade.

  By 2020/1 There were three Airfix /Mainline ones with coarse plastic gears, open frame motor etc and two Hornby with centre axle drive, so 2 oldies, and one new Hornby runners, 3 Airfix and one Hornby duds.  I pooled all the bits and got the Hornby running, I believe I used Hornby Dublo axles and a mix of Hornby and Airfix wheels.  One is slightly eccentric but not enough to cause problems. 

I bought another Airfix chassis for spares and with a set of  home made slide bars and pony trucks, filing out the chassis for Romford brass bearings etc I got all 3 of the others working nicely and all with see through spoke wheels.  I used Non Groove tyres to replace the traction tyres on two, just the tyres, you can't swap wheels and axles or they lose quartering or come loose.  The Traction tyre one needed fancy non insulated one side insulated the other Pony wheels made.  A massive amount of work.  However I was able to compare them 

Back to back for haulage the Airfix with traction tyre was streets ahead of any of the Hornby iterations, the test one had one traction tyre and one pony wheel live to the chassis and being built from parts had the pony truck springs adjusted to suit. The traction tyre doubled the haulage, it was well over 30 Hornby Dublo wagons on the level. None of the 3 Hornby ones could get anywhere near it, but power was brutal, very hard to control. One with no traction tyres was similar to the Hornby but the trailing truck needed its spring removed and the pony filing to clear the chassis to allow it to pull the skin off a rice pudding and it ran tail down.  I sold those. the last  two last week on eBay.  The latest bought new 2021, is the lightest of the Hornby ones but it does run smoothly so far but so did the older ones when new, and so to an extent do freshly serviced Airfix.    However they soon start to deteriorate, quite possibly because I make them work hard, where the oldies (and I think the Wills is bog standard,) don't.  

 

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Mogul not staying on the rails?

Out of the box it ran to the first Peco medium radius point and fell on its side. With back to back adjusted it was very unstable.  With Wrenn Wagon wheels in the pony truck it was fine. So I reprofiled the pony wheels to a conical Wrenn profile and its now behaving itself,.  To test the wheels, run the wheels on their axle through a reasonable (2ft?) curve and see if they derail. If they have a correct conical profile they will run round, if not they will twist sideways and derail.      I also found the Dapol split axle wheelsets short out if pressed in too far...

 

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

I had a Farish 81XX, IMHO an abysmal chassis, motor was so-so and the wheels showed their age, with undersize flangeless centre drivers and plastic pony wheels.

The motion was very crude with totally unrealistic slidebars and no piston rod

The body, also very crude, was the only bit worth(?)  saving. Possibly for a rather inaccurate looking County 4-4-2T

 

Yes the body is the only bit worth saving, 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by DCB

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

Out of the box it ran to the first Peco medium radius point and fell on its side. With back to back adjusted it was very unstable. 

 

Out of the box mine ran fine through Peco medium points, inner radius of a curved point and a double slip, the double slip being nearer 2' radius. (scale speed 75mph)

Also runs fine through my 16.2mm gauge* double junction.

The B2B of the drivers are 14.5-14.6 the pony truck is 14.5 and the tender 14.4-14.5.

 

*copperclad sleepered trackwork from Templot.

 

[DCB]

It's not just me, there are references to the Dapol  Mogul wayward pony truck issues on page 82/3 of this topic. 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

It's not just me, there are references to the Dapol  Mogul wayward pony truck issues on page 82/3 of this topic. 

The cam arrangement has no self-centring mechanism. That doesn't help.

[The Johnster]

The reworked Hornby body, for the version immediately prior to the present one I mean, for the reworked Airfix chassis, was improved in that the handrails were finer and set more accurately close to the body, and the smokebox door was enlarged in diameter to be more accurate; I know, I bought one on the Bay to replace an Airfix body on an Airfix chassis.  It retained the moulded shovel on the top of the tank, fireman's side, the rivetless buffer beams, and the rectangular holes in the rear of the bunker for the lugs on the rear of the chassis block to engage with.  I would agree that the finish on this version was improved as well.

 

I have no experience of the mech that Hornby devised for this model, but IIRC it retained the plastic slide bars which were the design's Achilles heel, as they would become brittle and snap with age.  On one of mine, this resulted in the piston rod coming out of the cyldiner and digging in to the ballast, and the loco doing a fairly spectacular semi-somersault before destroying an Airfix kit mineral on an adjacent road when it came down.

[Pmorgancym]

On 30/12/2021 at 22:28, melmerby said:

It would need to be well below the newer one.

With the going rate around or below £100, the RR one would IMHO need to be around £70 or less.

Whether it could be made profitably at that price, only Hornby will know.

Being originally Airfix, the body generally isn't too bad, however the wheels are poor as is the motion, with an all in one plastic cylinder/slide bar assembly. Detailing is also a bit sparse.

 

The only thing Hornby improved was the main chassis block, replacing the angled Airfix open frame motor driving the front axle with a decent horizontal can motor driving a gear tower over the centre axle. (typical of other contemporary Hornby products)

The cheapest Dapol I can is £120 and the Hornby ones are a premium over that

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

The cheapest Dapol I can is £120 and the Hornby ones are a premium over that

That's the price soon after release, constrained by Hornby's (& Dapol's) contractual requirements, wait a month or two and the price will fall a lot. It did with My Hornby ones (6110), the second was a lot cheaper than the first.

 

Look around, you can still get a Hornby prairie less than £120 (but up a bit from my purchase)

https://derails.co.uk/Hornby-r3721-largeprairie

£111 including postage.

(My second was around the £100 mark)

[Pmorgancym]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

That's the price soon after release, constrained by Hornby's (& Dapol's) contractual requirements, wait a month or two and the price will fall a lot. It did with My Hornby ones (6110), the second was a lot cheaper than the first.

 

Look around, you can still get a Hornby prairie less than £120 (but up a bit from my purchase)

https://derails.co.uk/Hornby-r3721-largeprairie

£111 including postage.

(My second was around the £100 mark)

Trouble is the limited production model most manufacturers now follow tends to mean unless a model is seriously flawed and doesn't sell, they tend not to stick around  , so your down to luck to find what you want at a discounted price.

(Which leads into my rant about the limited production driving down build quality forcing people to accept what is released)

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

the body generally isn't too bad,

 

Don't agree.  it was well recieved when Airfix released back in the Silurian era, when Triang Hornby were still releasing new locos with boiler skirts and moulded handrails, but the smokebox door is too small, the dart is moulded (normal for those days to be fair), and, worst, the chassis block attached at the rear with lugs that engaged in to rectangular holes in the bunker, crude and obvious.  There was no cab detail (normal enough in those days for tank locos).  The concurrent Airfix 14xx was much better.

Edited January 1, 2022 by The Johnster

[ndg910]

11 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

Don't agree.  it was well recieved when Airfix released back in the Silurian era, when Triang Hornby were still releasing new locos with boiler skirts and moulded handrails, but the smokebox door is too small, the dart is moulded (normal for those days to be fair), and, worst, the chassis block attached at the rear with lugs that engaged in to rectangular holes in the bunker, crude and obvious.  There was no cab detail (normal enough in those days for tank locos).  The concurrent Airfix 14xx was much better.

100% agree with your analysis but my Airfix Prairie is a much more reliable performer than my later Hornby 1st generation Prairie. She needs her wheels cleaned regularly but is still plodding along very happily - if a little noisily! Not my first loco by far but holds a lot of sentimental value.  I still remember pestering my dad to stop at Blunts at Mill Hill so I could drool and I was over the moon when I realised I had reached my pocket money goal and was able to purchase one.

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

There was no cab detail (normal enough in those days for tank locos).  The concurrent Airfix 14xx was much better.

If you didn't mind an overlarge motor taking up all the cab space.

It's obviously on display through the cab side windows

[The Johnster]

My experience of Airfix prairies (I've had 3 over the years) is that the performance improves as they run in, which they do continuallly until the slide bars break from old age related brittleness.  The noise settles over time into a rather satisfying Class 37 growl.  It is essential to remove the traction tyre and replace the grooved wheel if you are to get any smooth running from them.  But they always eventually succumb to broken slide bars.

 

Never had one with the upgraded Hornby chassis, though my last Airfix chassis had an upgraded body, now donated to the Collett 31xx project.  The current Hornby is not the smoothest of slow runners but will no doubt improve over time; running in on a small BLT requires one to play the long game.  Her pickups need frequent attention, though she looks superb!

[The Johnster]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

If you didn't mind an overlarge motor taking up all the cab space.

It's obviously on display through the cab side windows

It was still a better body than the prairie, and is still the tooling used by the current Hornby, being able to stand comparison with much more modern models.  I hid my 14xx motor with crew and plasticard shutters drawn back inside the cab reveal for inclement weather, not improbably on a South Wales layout...  It eventually succumbed to jammed plungers like they all did, but was an excellent slow runner.

[1466]

I bought an Airfix large prairie 45 years ago and applying the standards of the day was very pleased with it .

My memory suggests that small can motors were in the future. It would be 5 to 10 years before they became available and I recall being astounded by the power of the early Portescaps . So I was satisfied with large open frame motor cos that was all I could afford and buy 

It is easy to forget how standards have come on in the last decades .

[1466]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

It was still a better body than the prairie, and is still the tooling used by the current Hornby, being able to stand comparison with much more modern models.  I hid my 14xx motor with crew and plasticard shutters drawn back inside the cab reveal for inclement weather, not improbably on a South Wales layout...  It eventually succumbed to jammed plungers like they all did, but was an excellent slow runner.

I agree the 14xx was another incremental improvement. My wife bought me one from K’s ( the mail order firm not Keysers). It must be 40 years old  ( cracked record time on antiquity) . 
I carved the top feed off and converted her to EM gauge . She still runs today but is noisy in reverse despite my adding thrust washers to the gearbox shaft . 
I bought some replacement plungers a long time ago and that has helped . I think I got them from Dapol in its early days .

Like The Johnster , I added crew to hide the magnet which I painted black .

Much later I built an etched brass chassis for a second 14xx with a small can motor but that wasn’t a total success. But that’s what I call experience .Others might call it a mistake.

[melmerby]

On 01/01/2022 at 16:38, 1466 said:

I bought an Airfix large prairie 45 years ago and applying the standards of the day was very pleased with it .

My memory suggests that small can motors were in the future. It would be 5 to 10 years before they became available and I recall being astounded by the power of the early Portescaps . So I was satisfied with large open frame motor cos that was all I could afford and buy 

It is easy to forget how standards have come on in the last decades .

The Triang "small motor"* used in some Scalextric slot cars (Looks like a small X04 and not the XT60) would have been powerful enough for the typical one or two auto trailers and was much smaller that what Airfix produced for the 14XX.

*This:

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, 1466 said:

I bought an Airfix large prairie 45 years ago and applying the standards of the day was very pleased with it .

My memory suggests that small can motors were in the future. It would be 5 to 10 years before they became available and I recall being astounded by the power of the early Portescaps . So I was satisfied with large open frame motor cos that was all I could afford and buy 

It is easy to forget how standards have come on in the last decades .

You are tight about can motors, and Portescaps were too expensive for RTR.  My view at the time was that Airfix had made the right decision with the open frame motors, which gave way fairly rapidly to the unfortunate pancakes.  I understand the thinking behind the pancakes, for tender drives or hiding in fireboxes at a time when daylight beneath boilers was a big selling point, but they were pretty dire. 
 

Problem was that they were gutless and needed to run at high rpm to develop enough power to pull decent loads, which some of the couldn’t anyway even geared down for sensible running speeds and with traction tyres.  Cheap inefficient plastic gear trains and traction tyres prevented any chance of good slow running or smooth stops and starts, and their position in fireboxes prevented decent ballasting over the driven wheels, and the traction tyres meant the loss of a wheelset for pickup purposes, but all the RTR firms of the day were seduced by them.  On tender drives and diesel or electric bogies the final stage gearing was visible and drew attention to itself by rotating…

 

This era was the foundation of our current one of hi fidelity scale models with decent finishes and a good level of detail, but not performance, it was the move to Chinese production and the associated use of cheap but high quality level mounted can motors and rigidly contained good quality 2-stage transmission that gave us the excellent running, smooth stops and starts, and smooth slow running that we have come to take for granted.  
 

You’d have to say that the Airfix 14xx was pretty good in those respects, though, and I reckon one would still make a better job of my two K’s whitemetal A31s than a Baccy 4575, even without the traction tyres. 
 

Those who have layouts big enough to run their trans fast enough with heavy enough loads, like Tony Wright, still complain of insufficient power in RTR pacifics to haul scale length correctly formed trains at scale speeds, and prefer kit builds, though, which suggests that an ideal state of affairs has not yet been reached.  I am happy with it on my BLT, all the same!

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, ndg910 said:

Blunts at Mill Hill

My local model shop in my formative years.

[melmerby]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You are tight about can motors, and Portescaps were too expensive for RTR. 

Mabuchi were making decent can motors in the '60s, so i can't see why we were still wedded to large open frame motors similar to X04s let alone replacing them with crap pancakes.

I suppose it was the "British is Best" attitude even when better things were avaiable elsewhere.