OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Les1952]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

If Dap don't sort this out it will harm sales of the Mogul and Manor.

 

Given the results of the poll done by Sam's Trains the other month as to the importance of different aspects of a model I would doubt if the resulting sales drop will be more than miniscule.  Of 5100 people who voted in his poll (not including me as I didn't spot the poll was there) the results were as follows-

 

6% thought that prototypical accuracy was the most important ( with 12% each for build quality and level of detail, 18% for performance and 51% for value for money).

 

That means that most will go on price then look at how well it works and what parts drop off, with almost nobody outside a small number of members of this forum giving a monkeys about the shape of the slide bars.

 

Les

 

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

Or is that reflective of his audience. Must be a retailers dream to supply him knowing they can get shot of a duff loco to him without having to return it to the maker.

[Steamport Southport]

15 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

Given the results of the poll done by Sam's Trains the other month as to the importance of different aspects of a model I would doubt if the resulting sales drop will be more than miniscule.  Of 5100 people who voted in his poll (not including me as I didn't spot the poll was there) the results were as follows-

 

6% thought that prototypical accuracy was the most important ( with 12% each for build quality and level of detail, 18% for performance and 51% for value for money).

 

That means that most will go on price then look at how well it works and what parts drop off, with almost nobody outside a small number of members of this forum giving a monkeys about the shape of the slide bars.

 

Les

 

 

 

 

 

If Dapol really thought the people who actually buy the models didn't "give a monkeys" they wouldn't have spent 10,000s or even 100,000s of pounds making a new model. The old Airfix model would be sufficient.

 

Really says it all about the type of people that watch his videos.....

 

 

Jason

[Ian Hargrave]

15 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

Given the results of the poll done by Sam's Trains the other month as to the importance of different aspects of a model I would doubt if the resulting sales drop will be more than miniscule.  Of 5100 people who voted in his poll (not including me as I didn't spot the poll was there) the results were as follows-

 

6% thought that prototypical accuracy was the most important ( with 12% each for build quality and level of detail, 18% for performance and 51% for value for money).

 

That means that most will go on price then look at how well it works and what parts drop off, with almost nobody outside a small number of members of this forum giving a monkeys about the shape of the slide bars.

 

Les

 

 

 

It would be another and much more significant poll to ask how many of Sam’s devotees actually bought one. I wonder how many watch as a cheap form of entertainment. 

[Pteremy]

17 hours ago, Les1952 said:

6% thought that prototypical accuracy was the most important ( with 12% each for build quality and level of detail, 18% for performance and 51% for value for money).

 

I have not seen the poll but wonder how well it was put together - 'value for money' must encompass the other features. For example, unless you only buy a model to put it in a show case 'performance' will always be a significant component of the overall value you place on it?

[Oldddudders]

5 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 I wonder how many watch as a cheap form of entertainment. 

The Internet encourages that. A decent hi-tech website I enjoy has a poll about every item reviewed. A brand-new product costing thousands of dollars will invariably have a number of people who already own one - before it's been released for sale - and a number who have had one but got rid of it.....

[Butler Henderson]

I bought a new laptop and am getting a nagging email from the manufacture at least weekly wanting to be rate it - no flaming idea, it works but then isn't that want they normally do. Feature wise its lacking lights of any form, I cannot find even an 8 pin socket any where readilly accessible and placed down it refused to move so probably 1 star

[57xx]

19 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

It would be another and much more significant poll to ask how many of Sam’s devotees actually bought one. I wonder how many watch as a cheap form of entertainment. 

 

 I could well be wrong, but didn't he build his channel on Thomas videos and most of his devotees are there for/from that? A different demographic will give different results to his poll.

[Legend]

19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

Really says it all about the type of people that watch his videos.....

 

 

Jason

Yes it’s called the mainstream 

[melmerby]

On 25/12/2021 at 19:45, Chuffer Davies said:

But interestingly on close inspection the lower slide bar has a chamfer at the end.  This would almost certainly have been sufficient to prevent the connecting rod hitting the lower slide bar.  Why Dapol then changed their minds is a mystery we may never be able to resolve.

Frank

It the design is prototypically accurate it will not work as the prototype has a recess machined into the slide bars to allow the connecting rods enough movement.

You have two choices (maybe more)

1 Chamfer/ bend the end of the slide bar (Dapol's solution - gratingly obvious)

2 Ensure that the connecting rod is set just behind the slide bars (Hornby's solution - IMHO much more pleasing appearance.)

Both are wrong by necessity in 00. Take your pick.

 

I have a Comet Chassis under a Mainline body 43XX, I chamfered the ends of the slide bars but nowhere near as much as Dapol as IIRC their connecting rod is too long and exacerbates the problem.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by melmerby

[Coppercap]

6 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

 I could well be wrong, but didn't he build his channel on Thomas videos and most of his devotees are there for/from that? A different demographic will give different results to his poll.

When you read the comments put on most of his reviews, the majority of them clearly come from people several years younger than himself, and with no relevance to the actual review... 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Coppercap

[Harlequin]

You might remember that my first two Prairies had very visible gaps between side tanks and running plate. I investigated up to a point but stopped when I realised I would have to break some glued joints to get any further and sent them both back.

 

The two replacements have been manually checked by Rails and the gaps are better. Running qualities are just as good as before - smooth and quiet with no jerkiness or cogging when using Zimo decoders (on smooth Code75 track). One of them has a slightly deformed rear buffer beam but I'll live with that.

 

None of the four I've had has shown any problem with droopy slidebars. I think overall they paint a convincing picture of the class even though some of the details might not be quite right.

 

The amount of side play of the rear axle in the pony truck is excessive. This means that the rear coupling can sometimes be in a position where it fails to hook up to another vehicle. I've inserted nylon washers to reduce the side play and I think that helps.

The firebox glow is basically a failure, the same as the Mogul and D Class that came before. It's not realistic because of the regular as clockwork pulsing effect and it's very dim, even if you mount some reflective material behind it. It would be better to replace it with a bright orange LED driven directly from one of the decoder Aux outputs, which have much better random flicker effects in Zimo decoders, but that doesn't seem to be straightforward because the decoder carrier board leaves all the Next18 Aux outputs unconnected! It might be possible to make a flying connection from the Next18 socket to the one spare pad on the loco connector but the Next18 legs are extremely small so this would be very fiddly. This is a downside of the plugin carrier board idea - it restricts what you can do unless you're willing to remove the carrier board and its socket entirely and hardwire things. (Thinks: I wonder if one of those Next18 breakout boards would fit in the smokebox...)

 

The DCC sound is a let down because it only allows for a tiny sugar cube speaker under the decoder carrier board. This has an uncertain seal to the enclosure provided and the smokebox doesn't seem to have a vent to the outside, so there's no direct path for sound to get out. There's no provision for a bigger speaker anywhere else in the loco. Some intrusive modifications are needed to fit one.

 

This is what I've done:

 

Removed the coal bunker floor (using a dremel with a milling bit to cut it half and then worked the glued joints to the side walls loose.)

(The damage to the floor caused by the milling bit will not be visible so nothing to worry about.)

 

Tested a bigger speaker (18*13*13 "Boomer") wired to the two labelled pads on the loco's circuit board:

 

Disconnected the new speaker and routed the speaker cables through the existing clips and through a hole drilled in the cab:

(The speaker cables were painted black to disguise them.)

 

The big speaker was then glued into the coal bunker, connected up and tested again before everything was put back together and the speaker covered with fine mesh carrying a real coal load:

 

It might be possible to route the speaker cables under the cab floor because there is a tunnel to connect to the Mogul tender but they might foul the rear pony truck and new holes would be need to be drilled through the cast metal to get up into the bunker again.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[Pmorgancym]

So now we have  the Dapol prairie, the Hornby one and the older airfix/Hornby widely available used.  Any of our magazines willing to do a critical group test?  Much as you'd see in the motoring/hifi/PC etc. Sectors?  

(My money is the old Hornby model smacking them both on value for money)

[Harlequin]

Some artistic photos of 3 Large Prairies together:

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[Les1952]

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is it though?

 

Or is it kids and people somewhere on "the spectrum"/ with learning difficulties? (Sorry, don't know the current PC terms, I don't intend to insult people)

 

 

 

BUT YOU HAVE!

 

We have at our club a Junior section with a trio of young lads who are autistic.  Until they joined us two in particular had a lot of problems at school.  As a result of engaging in their hobby, treated as valued members of the club, and particularly not talked down to, they have developed into a group of very fine young men.  None has been in trouble at school.  I find your reference to "the spectrum"  to be particularly insulting not just to these three but to all youngsters who are trying to make a start in the hobby.  

 

 

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is it though?

 

Do we really need comments such as "accuracy doesn't matter" when discussing such models? 

 

 

 

Nobody has said that accuracy doesn't matter.  What HAS been said is that only 6% believe it was the most important factor.  The differences in the slide bars are a difference in two manufacturers approach to a problem caused by a fundamental pair of inaccuracies- 2.34mm too narrow gauge and the need to get round corners small enough to fit in a room, i.e. vastly tighter than the prototype ever had to contend with..  

 

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

PS if anyone thinks a Bachmann ROD and GWR 94XX are amongst the worst models of 2021 then he needs psychiatric help or a good slap. He's causing more harm for the hobby than good.

 

 

Jason

 

I've not yet found his review of the ROD, but I have watched the 94xx.  The loco he bought was wide to gauge and had some quite bad glue marks.  It needed a fix before it would run at all.  It also lacks a flywheel and even after running in was found a little wanting in torque and to run at a high speed at mid volts.  If this particular one had surfaced on RMWeb there would have been a chorus of "send it back".

 

Les

 

[Pmorgancym]

12 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

BUT YOU HAVE!

 

We have at our club a Junior section with a trio of young lads who are autistic.  Until they joined us two in particular had a lot of problems at school.  As a result of engaging in their hobby, treated as valued members of the club, and particularly not talked down to, they have developed into a group of very fine young men.  None has been in trouble at school.  I find your reference to "the spectrum"  to be particularly insulting not just to these three but to all youngsters who are trying to make a start in the hobby.  

 

 

 

Nobody has said that accuracy doesn't matter.  What HAS been said is that only 6% believe it was the most important factor.  The differences in the slide bars are a difference in two manufacturers approach to a problem caused by a fundamental pair of inaccuracies- 2.34mm too narrow gauge and the need to get round corners small enough to fit in a room, i.e. vastly tighter than the prototype ever had to contend with..  

 

 

I've not yet found his review of the ROD, but I have watched the 94xx.  The loco he bought was wide to gauge and had some quite bad glue marks.  It needed a fix before it would run at all.  It also lacks a flywheel and even after running in was found a little wanting in torque and to run at a high speed at mid volts.  If this particular one had surfaced on RMWeb there would have been a chorus of "send it back".

 

Les

 

That's the point though, he doesn't send it back. He doesn't advocate his followers send it back.

Review what's in front of your yes, but then send it back and see I what u get back is an improvement.  Otherwise this pre order culture manufactures are pushing leaves then under no obligation to supply quality models 

[Les1952]

24 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

That's the point though, he doesn't send it back. He doesn't advocate his followers send it back.

Review what's in front of your yes, but then send it back and see I what u get back is an improvement.  Otherwise this pre order culture manufactures are pushing leaves then under no obligation to supply quality models 

 

I only normally look at his reviews if I'm interested in the models.  I also try to find reviews from Jenny Kirk.  He has sent models back - Hornby's Hush Hush springs to mind.

 

I appreciate that Sam's Trains is subjective - all reviews are.  However, he does this for a living and buys all of the models he reviews.    Whilst on RMWeb there is a vocal number who don't think much of him there are sufficient who do to keep him in business.   I'm firmly on the fence as far as Sam is concerned.  There is a lot about his channel I'm not happy with but to dismiss him and his followers as "kids and people "on the spectrum"/with learning difficulties" does nothing to ensure that this hobby has a future.  

 

Les

 

(who is currently blacklisted by one dealer on eBay over sending a model back.......)

[7007GreatWestern]

23 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is it though?

 

Or is it kids and people somewhere on "the spectrum"/ with learning difficulties? (Sorry, don't know the current PC terms, I don't intend to insult people)

 

I can assure you no one I know who are "in the mainstream" are commenting on silly videos about "toy trains".

 

Just look at the comments under his videos. None of those comments are coming from adults who are buying expensive models. So why does he always get brought up in sensible discussions?

 

 

He's irrelevant, can't we move on from that train set mentality? I'm sure there's a more suitable forum for such discussions. Or even section of this one.

 

We are talking about which model to spend our hard earned on out of two good models. I'm considering whether it's worth buying some to replace half a dozen Airfix/Mainline versions that were revamped/detailed over the years but are now a bit dated. That's quite an outlay for something that may not be necessary.

 

Do we really need comments such as "accuracy doesn't matter" when discussing such models? 

 

 

PS if anyone thinks a Bachmann ROD and GWR 94XX are amongst the worst models of 2021 then he needs psychiatric help or a good slap. He's causing more harm for the hobby than good.

 

 

Jason

 

Ah, yes, got it! People 'on the spectrum' aren't legitimate human beings in their own right are they? So why on earth would anyone produce YouTube content they enjoy? Even if your ridiculous assertion could be factually justified, the terms 'on the spectrum' and 'learning difficulties' have nothing to do with "Political Correctness". 

 

You say that "None of those comments are coming from adults who are buying expensive models." Do you know that for a fact? Is it possible that a significant number of people who are "buying expensive models" do watch his videos but don't comment?

 

"PS if anyone thinks a Bachmann ROD and GWR 94XX are amongst the worst models of 2021 then he needs psychiatric help or a good slap."

No mate, you need to accept that other people will occasionally reach different conclusions to you. Get over it!

 

" He's causing more harm for the hobby than good."

I disagree. It's opinionated gobs**tes like you getting irate over trivia who bring the hobby into disrepute. Personally I suggest you seek psychiatric help for you anger and disinhibited behaviour.

 

PS. Why has no Moderator removed Steamport Southports post?

 

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, 7007GreatWestern said:

 

Ah, yes, got it! People 'on the spectrum' aren't legitimate human beings in their own right are they? So why on earth would anyone produce YouTube content they enjoy? Even if your ridiculous assertion could be factually justified, the terms 'on the spectrum' and 'learning difficulties' have nothing to do with "Political Correctness". 

 

You say that "None of those comments are coming from adults who are buying expensive models." Do you know that for a fact? Is it possible that a significant number of people who are "buying expensive models" do watch his videos but don't comment?

 

"PS if anyone thinks a Bachmann ROD and GWR 94XX are amongst the worst models of 2021 then he needs psychiatric help or a good slap."

No mate, you need to accept that other people will occasionally reach different conclusions to you. Get over it!

 

" He's causing more harm for the hobby than good."

I disagree. It's opinionated gobs**tes like you getting irate over trivia who bring the hobby into disrepute. Personally I suggest you seek psychiatric help for you anger and disinhibited behaviour.

 

PS. Why has no Moderator removed Steamport Southports post?

 

Well put mate and also Les.

P

[Harlequin]

I think I've worked out how to drive the firebox LEDs directly from the decoder with a simple mod to the carrier board.

 

The light flashing circuit, including a voltage regulator and an 8-pin chip to produce the oscillation between the two LEDs, has a permanent +ve connection and a floating ground. It pulls the cathode sides of the firebox LEDs low to light them. It is activated when either the F0f or F0r outputs of the decoder pull the ground side of the circuit low.

 

So, if the chip was removed completely and the ground connected directly to the LEDs and their resistors, simply by bridging between the ground pin and P0 and P1 pins of where the chip used to be, the LEDs will then be pulled low directly to the decoder F0f and F0r outputs.

 

The only question with that idea is, will the voltage regulator circuit switch on and off fast enough for the decoder's "flicker" waveform to reach the LEDs cleanly?

 

There's only one way to find out...

 

Edit: Sometime later...

Here's the firebox chip being cut off:

 

Here's the new link wire:

The wire connects Pin4 Ground to Pins 7 and 8, which you can see are connected to R3 and R4, the pulldown resistors for the firebox LEDs. The soldering only looks bad because of the huge magnification!

 

And Hey Presto! After a bit of CV twiddling… It works!

 

The flicker is not so pronounced as on other locos where it is driven directly from the decoder and I guess that's because of the voltage regulation circuit being a bit slow. But it's better than that artificial "Knight Rider" scan they used to do.

 

Despite both LEDs being lit at the same time now it hasn't improved the apparent brightness of the firebox. So the next thing will be to replace the Dapol LEDs with something brighter.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

I think I've worked out how to drive the firebox LEDs directly from the decoder with a simple mod to the carrier board.

 

The light flashing circuit, including a voltage regulator and an 8-pin chip to produce the oscillation between the two LEDs, has a permanent +ve connection and a floating ground. It pulls the cathode sides of the firebox LEDs low to light them. It is activated when either the F0f or F0r outputs of the decoder pull the ground side of the circuit low.

 

So, if the chip was removed completely and the ground connected directly to the LEDs and their resistors, simply by bridging between the ground pin and P0 and P1 pins of where the chip used to be, the LEDs will then be connected directly to the decoder F0f and F0r outputs.

The only question with that idea is, will the voltage regulator circuit switch on and off fast enough for the decoder's "flicker" waveform to reach the LEDs cleanly?

 

There's only one way to find out...

 

Edit: Sometime later...

Here's the firebox chip being cut off:

 

Here's the new link wire:

The wire connects Pin4 Ground to Pins 7 and 8, which you can see are connected to R3 and R4, the pulldown resistors for the firebox LEDs. The soldering only looks bad because of the huge magnification!

 

And Hey Presto! It works!

 

The flicker is not so pronounced as on other locos where it is driven directly from the decoder and I guess that's because of the voltage regulation circuit being a bit slow. But it's better than that artificial "Knight Rider" scan they used to do.

 

Despite both LEDs being lit at the same time now it hasn't improved the apparent brightness of the firebox. So the next thing will be to replace the Dapol LEDs with something brighter.

 

 

Just a thought- I don't recall the fireboxes of kettles I've travelled in being any brighter than that - hotter is another matter!   

 

Keep up the good work

Les

[Harlequin]

13 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Just a thought- I don't recall the fireboxes of kettles I've travelled in being any brighter than that - hotter is another matter!   

 

Keep up the good work

Les

Thanks, I will!

 

The phone’s camera makes the firebox look brighter than it really is…

[phil-b259]

33 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Just a thought- I don't recall the fireboxes of kettles I've travelled in being any brighter than that - hotter is another matter!   

 

Keep up the good work

Les

 

But just how bright should it be?

 

Thats the problem with 'firebox glow' - most modellers haven't a scuby about firing a real steam loco and have totally unrealistic expectations of how 'visible' it should be.

 

A couple of things to consider

 

(1) Having the firebox door fully open wastes heat and can sometimes let too much air in so when the fire is at its brightest / hottest the door will be shut.

(2) When the fire is effectively 'ticking over' such as on a long downhill gradient or when sat around in yards the temperature and ferocity will be much reduced and thus not particularly 'bright' even with the firebox door open.

(3) During daylight hours any radiated light is washed out by the natural daylight (unless looking directly at the firebox) so you won't see the glow from outside the loco.

[Les1952]

48 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

But just how bright should it be?

 

Thats the problem with 'firebox glow' - most modellers haven't a scuby about firing a real steam loco and have totally unrealistic expectations of how 'visible' it should be.

 

A couple of things to consider

 

(1) Having the firebox door fully open wastes heat and can sometimes let too much air in so when the fire is at its brightest / hottest the door will be shut.

(2) When the fire is effectively 'ticking over' such as on a long downhill gradient or when sat around in yards the temperature and ferocity will be much reduced and thus not particularly 'bright' even with the firebox door open.

(3) During daylight hours any radiated light is washed out by the natural daylight (unless looking directly at the firebox) so you won't see the glow from outside the loco.

 

exactly.

 

Les

[Harlequin]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

But just how bright should it be?

 

Thats the problem with 'firebox glow' - most modellers haven't a scuby about firing a real steam loco and have totally unrealistic expectations of how 'visible' it should be.

 

A couple of things to consider

 

(1) Having the firebox door fully open wastes heat and can sometimes let too much air in so when the fire is at its brightest / hottest the door will be shut.

(2) When the fire is effectively 'ticking over' such as on a long downhill gradient or when sat around in yards the temperature and ferocity will be much reduced and thus not particularly 'bright' even with the firebox door open.

(3) During daylight hours any radiated light is washed out by the natural daylight (unless looking directly at the firebox) so you won't see the glow from outside the loco.

 

Remember that:

1. The firebox glow of the Dapol Prairie, and the Mogul before it, are widely recognised as not being bright enough.
2. We don't have the ability to open or close the firebox door on the models (yet) and we can't vary the brightness to simulate the varying state of the fire (yet) but we can and do turn the light on and off when the fireman is deemed to be shovelling coal with the door open.
3. If you have firebox lights in a model you want to be able to see them doing something under average lighting conditions, otherwise they might as well not be there at all.