OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Miss Prism]

Picture caption now changed to 'probably early 1950s'.

[Penrhos1920]

On 10/08/2023 at 16:00, Harlequin said:

Nice to see the square front drop running plate variation. 

 

 

Definitely.  I’d like to have either 3119, 3129 or 3140, all are known to have made it to Penrhos when they were lent to the Barry in 1920.

 

Comparing photos of the Dapol sample to photos of 3131 & 3146 there are some errors.   The bunker is too big; it’s still the 5101 bunker which had a deeper rear overhang and different shape coal space.  The chimney shouldn’t have a copper top.  

 

Have they changed the roof to the higher arch?, I’m not convinced.

 

If these get corrected then I’ll be buying one, but if not then I’ll hold out and hope that Hornby do a better job.

[The Johnster]

On 12/08/2023 at 10:16, jamieb said:

Your maths are out here!

 

Not an unusual occurrence.

 

But IMHO if Dapol want to make an 81xx, and I approve most highly of this intention, they are going to have to make a visual point of the driving wheel diameter being smaller, and simply replacing the existing drivers with smaller ones won't cut the scale mustard as the entire 'set' of the loco is altered. 

 

Tyre wear in service reduced the driving wheel diameters significantly enough to make a difference to performance, more so the larger the diameter.  Canton's famous clean Britannias were used as low mileage engines when they were fresh out of works and could be kept clean, and rostered to Paddington or off-region jobs, but higher mileage engines on which the dirt was fighting back were kept for 'down line' and North-to-West work, where the smaller worn wheels were an advantage on the hillier routes.  Some of these were quite tough jobs, especially the Fishguard boat trains.

[Miss Prism]

Brits went to Fishguard?

 

[Ian Hargrave]

3 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Brits went to Fishguard?

 

Unlike other West Wales-Paddington expresses which conveyed portions ,they carried the boat load all the way to Paddington avoiding Swansea…the complete train which was a heavy one.In steam days,they probably would change locos at Cardiff.The one journey I had on one from Fishguard as far as Cardiff was in 1964 when a Western diesel hydraulic worked through to Paddington 

 

[The Johnster]

The day boat train was a Canton turn, and, yes, the loco was changed both directions at Canton, out and back being a day's work for it.  They were the usual haulage, along with Castles; the Kings during their brief sojourn at the shed never went west of Leckwith Jc and were, TTBOMK, only used on the Paddingtons, but there was nothing to prevent them being used to Shrewsbury on the North to West. 

 

Locos were similarly changed at Canton on the Milford Haven-Paddington Goods fish train, another out-and-back day job for a Canton loco and crew, Castle this time.  It was necessary because the capacity of the tender bunker required the loco to be changed at this point.

 

 

[sdh-stbriavels]

Hello all. I apologise if this has already been covered, but with the new large prairie release is there a 7 year gap in coverage (from 1927 to 1934)?

If I have read correctly all those numbered in the 31 series were renumbered to 51 series in 1927, but I can't see Dapol listing a 51 number with 'Great Western' livery, these only being with the shirtbutton livery.

Thanks

[Coach bogie]

You have read the list correct.

 

Personally I will be ordering replacement 51XX numbers from Railtec. Easier to re-number then re-letter, in my opinion.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[sdh-stbriavels]

Thanks Mike. That’s what I was planning to do, just wanted the reassurance 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Brits went to Fishguard?

 

According to John. Hodge - who usually seem to be pretty reliable with this sort of information - they worked the 18.55 Paddington - Fishguard forward from Swansea (engine off the 17.45 Cardiff - Swansea) and worked back with the 03.55 Fishguard - Paddington as far as Cardiff.

 

The working pattern of the Fishguard trains was quite complex and changed over the years but not all of them used the District Line instead of going via Swansea and reversing.   For many years the pattern of connecting trains for the night boat (at one time the only boat) was Down via Swansea and Up via the District Line.  In later years the boat trains in both directions ran via Swansea and only the Motorail service (in the years when it was operating) ran via the District Line.

 

I don't know when it changed but the Milford Haven Fish was at one time worked by an engine which arrived light from Neyland

 

Back to prairies

[Guardian]

On 10/08/2023 at 17:00, Harlequin said:

Nice to see the square front drop running plate variation. 

 

Which - basically - makes it a 3100 class (renumber 5100 class in 1927). Dapol may have mentioned that they are not just doing a 5101/61xx class production rerun, but a modification to 3100 class. At least not on their homepage as per today.

 

And I wonder why they offer two different 3100 class numbers (3131 and 3146) instead of one of the renumbered 5100 with GWR lettering (e.g. 5131). Or an era 2 version of the 3100.

 

However, in addition with the roof variations, these variations are always appreciated.

 

Best,

Mark  

[The Johnster]

On 14/08/2023 at 11:28, The Stationmaster said:

not all of them used the District Line instead of going via Swansea and reversing.

 

For those that don't know the area, the District Line is not the only means of avoiding Swansea High Street and a reversal, as there is a triangle around Landore shed that offers a direct, and arguably faster, route via Cockett.  The District is 40mph speed restricted (mining subsidence) with (IIRC) 15mph over Dynefor Bridge.  That said, Landore Viaduct is speed restricted as well.

[Clearwater]

Having a productive festive day, I was reading Warwickshire Railways and looking at photos of the 3100s.  Looking at one at Leamington,  there’s what looks to be a fairly prominent tool box on the front left and right of the running plate.  In the Maidment book, there seem to be some similar pictures but others where the toolbox doesn’t look to be there.  Was this an exception, a Birmingham division quirk and doesn’t look to be there on the Dapol samples?  
 

REMOVED BY 1910 SO PHOTO IM LOOKING AT MUST BE THAT PERIOD.  PROMPTS QUESTION IF Dapol WILL DO AS BUILT VERSION WHICH MIGHT MATCH THEIR TOPLIGHTS?

 

Presume some of the castings from other kits could be adapted to customise if required?

 

Also does anyone know how far south Birmingham division prairies would have ranged?

 

David

Edited December 25, 2023 by Clearwater
Answered own question!

[Miss Prism]

I'm not sure when the toolboxes on the 3100s were moved to the cab. My guess is the move coincided with the fitting of topfeed (i.e. sometime after 1911).

 

Dapol does not currently have plans for doing the locos in early condition. See here

 

There seems to be quite a variety in the initial allocations of the 3100 locos on brdatabase, so I think they should perhaps not be regarded as 'Birmingham division' locos.

[Steamport Southport]

This any use? It's got the May 1922 and 1947 allocations.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/262_3100det.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I got all excited there for a second, but of course my interest is in the Collett 1938 31xx class, a rebuild of the Churchward 3150 (no.4 boiler) with higher boiler pressure and smaller driving wheels.  Collett apparently intended for the entire 3150 class to be rebuilt into this configuration, but the war, and his retirement & Hawksworth's appointment in 1941 scuppered the idea, and more 5101s were built instead.

[Steamport Southport]

I was looking at those earlier myself.

 

http://www.pdkmodels.co.uk/PDK 69. 31xx.html

 

Can't see a RTR version appearing anytime soon.

 

 

The old way of doing it was to sling a City Of Truro boiler on the Airfix Prairie! I'm pretty sure Dapol has quite a few of those to sell!

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I was looking at those earlier myself.

 

http://www.pdkmodels.co.uk/PDK 69. 31xx.html

 

Can't see a RTR version appearing anytime soon.

 

 

The old way of doing it was to sling a City Of Truro boiler on the Airfix Prairie! I'm pretty sure Dapol has quite a few of those to sell!

 

 

Jason

My 3150 is a cut down Cotswold GWR 42xx body with a K's 43xx chassis. The cab area height/pitch is the same as a 42xx rather than the other prairies.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Johnster]

The Collett 1938 31xx is a slightly different beastie, and Jason is right, it is an unlikely proposition as an RTR candidate (that said, I thought the same about the 44xx).  It is a rebuild of the Churchward 3150, which is itself improbable RTR territory but not impossible as production of more popular large prairies make it lower hanging fruit; it could share a chassis/mech with existing models.  The Collett 31xx has 5'3" driving wheels, which results in a running plate, cylinders, tanks, and boiler pitched 2 1/2" lower than a 3150, and of course 5" more space between the drivers.  These are not massive differences but they make subtle changes to the look of the loco, so that on encountering one, it presesnts as a 3150 that doesn't quite look right until you see the number and realise what you are looking at.  The loco is squat and has a no-nonsense attitude, and while handsome and well proportioned as are all large prairies, clearly means business in a way that the others don't, quite.  Bit like a 4575 on steroids.  I think it looks best of all the GW prairies.

 

Only five locos were rebuilt into this form, so it is not a well-known class, just another large prairie variant to most people, but it is of interest as the ultimate extension of that  rather confusing group of classes.  I'm interested because 3100 was allocated to Tondu in 1946 and remained at the shed until it's withdrawal in 1957.  It's regular duty was the Porthcawl-Cardiff 'Residential' commuter service, five bogies gangwayed stock, and the increased boiler pressure and smaller driving wheels were considered useful in getting the train away smartly from the intermediate stops on the busy South Wales Main Line.  This train had been the task of a series of Bulldogs before the war.  But photographic evidence of it up at Abergwynfi exists, and that's more than enough for me to invoke Rule 1 for it to have turned up at Cwmdimbath occasionally!

 

The Hodge/Davies Tondu Valleys books record that it was withdrawn after coming into 'heavy contact' with the platform-backed buffers at Porthcawl.  It apparently spent a few weeks as yard pilot at Ogmore Jc, and was sent to Swindon for repair.  Swindon promptly took it out of service and it lasted a year or so on the scrap lines before being dismantled, and Hodge/Davies seem to be of the view that this was a result of the loco being mistaken for a 3150, a class which was in the process of being withdrawn at the time.  The loco was 'only' 19 years old, except of course parts of it weren't.  The other four in the class were withdrawn between that date and 1960, so it didn't have long to go anyway. 

 

At least one of the class, 3104, appeared in BR lined green livery late in it's career, probably the only large prairie with a no.4 boiler to do so.

 

I have an ongoing 'as and when' project to kitbash it, and in it's current form it looks not unlike 3100, but this will be a severely compromised model in terms of scale and accuracy.  Don't laugh, I'm doing my best, Airfix GMR 61xx running plate, cylinders, & motion, Mainline 56xx tanks, cab, & bunker, Mainline 43xx boiler & running plate ahead of front drop, and a much hacked about Baccy Ivatt 4MT mogul chassis & mech.  Might be in service during 2024!  The PDK kit is lovely, looks spot-on, but is probably beyond my capabiliy and a big investment for something I might much up, especially for a loco which will only see occasional use at best on the layout.

[Miss Prism]

31 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

At least one of the class, 3104, appeared in BR lined green livery late in it's career, probably the only large prairie with a no.4 boiler to do so.

 

It was 3103.

[Clearwater]

22 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I'm not sure when the toolboxes on the 3100s were moved to the cab. My guess is the move coincided with the fitting of topfeed (i.e. sometime after 1911).

 

Dapol does not currently have plans for doing the locos in early condition. See here

 

There seems to be quite a variety in the initial allocations of the 3100 locos on brdatabase, so I think they should perhaps not be regarded as 'Birmingham division' locos.

Thanks Miss P.  Hadn’t seen rhe Dapol link.  I wasn’t clear, perils of typing last on 25/12…, I meant a quirk of the locos allocated to the Birmingham district rather than the class as whole being birmingham based.  

[phil gollin]

.

 

Any news of when when the next batch of 43xx Moguls will be ready ?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

.

[gwrrob]

6 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.Any news of when when the next batch of 43xx Moguls will be ready ?

 

Most of their latest product updates concern various wagon releases in N, OO and O gauge.

[Ian Hargrave]

And to further add to this week’s gloom. The Warley Show is no more.

[Harlequin]

27 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

And to further add to this week’s gloom. The Warley Show is no more.

 

Hmmm yes... I think maybe it's time had come. It didn't seem to generate much "buzz" this year!

 

One of the reasons given for suspending Warley was that "the next generation of younger enthusiasts required to take over the staffing and running of such prestigious events does not seem to be materialising".

 

I don't think that's quite correct. They (We) may not be materialising at physical clubs so much but we do exist and we are all engaged in the much bigger online community here, on RMweb.

 

Something new will pop up in a new form to excite us all. Remember the Virtual Online shows that RMweb/BRM/Warners held during the pandemic? They seemed to work really well!

 

Edited January 11 by Harlequin