OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Miss Prism]

27 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, was 5330 still in BR Lined Green in the early 60’s? Thanks Fred

 

Yes. (ex-works, 1957)

 

Within a few years, it wasn't possible to tell what the livery was. Seen here at Reading, with a different tender:

 

 

 

Edited February 17 by Miss Prism

[MikeParkin65]

Ive got to say having looked at the actual model at my local shop the black doesn’t look nearly as strange to the naked eye as it does in digital photos.  

[NHY 581]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Ive got to say having looked at the actual model at my local shop the black doesn’t look nearly as strange to the naked eye as it does in digital photos.  

 

Sorry Mike have to disagree. One's perception of colour is of course subjective but I'm glad I'm not in the market for a BR black specimen. Poor effort on Dapol's part. 

Edited February 17 by NHY 581

[liathach]

Referring back to the perception of the black colour.  I have 5350.  To my eyes, it is a satin finish very dark grey.  Around the chassis area, it looks fine.  On the smokebox area and rooftop the colour looks very shiny satin and much lighter than the black on other locomotives I have.  With a bit of powders weathering, I'll be fine with it. 

 

Attached image of 5350 facing a Hornby Grange.

 

Having run 5350 earlier, it's performance is very good.  It starts very smoothly (Zimo MX617F) and there's no hint of cogging.  It runs dead straight and smooth on the track, much better than most of the other locos I have.  The motion looks really good in action.  Hopefully, an easy fix, the tender wheels do have the odd hint of wheel drag similar to most of the Hornby stock I have.  

 

Edited February 18 by liathach

[Quarryscapes]

5399, the mystery identity loco, was it green or black in 56/57? All I can say from photos I have is it was unlined and carried an early crest. 

[Mikkel]

 

Farthing, 1913. Animated discussion about the Fortythrees. There is agreement that they are good performers: Smooth and quiet, no lurching, decent crawl. But the shade of black raises eyebrows, that Churchward fellow is always experimenting, when will it end.

 

[Hal Nail]

7 hours ago, Quarryscapes said:

5399, the mystery identity loco, was it green or black in 56/57?

Rail online photo in '57 is a large early crest, so likely to be black.

 

Unlined green early crest locos of any class were rare.

Edited February 18 by Hal Nail

[Craigw]

9 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Farthing, 1913. Animated discussion about the Fortythrees. There is agreement that they are good performers: Smooth and quiet, no lurching, decent crawl. But the shade of black raises eyebrows, that Churchward fellow is always experimenting, when will it end.

 

 

I hate to mention this again, but those 1925 vintage tender springs really do jar - at least to me. I saw photos of a Masterpiece Models Saint for sale on the weekend and they had these springs fitted as well (on a loco in original condition with no top feed.  I would be more than a little annoyed if I had stumped up for one of them!

 

[Miss Prism]

I suspect there might have been 3 spring types on the Churchward 3500g - light, medium and heavy. The heavy type might have been introduced before 1925. This pic of 4700, assuming it was taken when the loco was new, would date the introduction of the heavy spring to 1919, but that doesn't mean it featured on the Mogul tenders from that date of course (there were many lots of 3500g between 1919 and 1925). All the Churchward tenders were upgraded when they visited the works, but it's difficult to tell when the last of the lighter springs could be seen in service, possibly late 1920s.

 

Here is an extract of a drawing from the late Peter Rich, for a Dean 4000g behind the first series of Counties, showing the light spring. The early 'twin strips' form of brake hanger is also shown. The heavier cast type of hanger, as featured on model RTR tenders, didn't feature until many years later (probably mid-1930s).
 

 

[Andy Keane]

I have just gotten my sound fitted 4321 and popped her on the rolling road. A really smooth and even runner. However the sound has a curious knock or tap that follows the speed of the chuffs. I am not sure if this is deliberate or not. Too me it sounds most odd - has anyone else got this in their pre-installed sound output? This is a link to the Mogul on test where you can hear these clicks: 

 

Andy

 

I am now told the little ‘click’  is the sound of the pressure being maintained on the vacuum brakes – something common to most GWR locos until they modernised them all with air brake fittings.  So it is deliberate, though I think it should be more of a little air ‘pshhht’ noise than the click I am getting. I find it sufficiently tedious I think I will get John at YouChoos to reprogramme my sound files.

 

pps - the black on the model seems pretty black on mine.

Edited February 22 by Andy Keane

[Pteremy]

My unlined BR Black 5377 just arrived - no chance to run yet but 2 observations. I am relieved to see that the smokebox has rivets, as it should do by the 1950s. (It wasn't clear to me in earlier comments on this issue whether Dapol had in fact tooled both flush and riveted versions.) As to colour it is definitely black in natural light, but does look greyer under my desk lamp. No doubt a colour expert will be able to explain this effect. But it will be interesting to see how much colour change is apparent when running on the layout.

[MikeParkin65]

15 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have just gotten my sound fitted 4321 and popped her on the rolling road. A really smooth and even runner. However the sound has a curious knock or tap that follows the speed of the chuffs. I am not sure if this is deliberate or not. Too me it sounds most odd - has anyone else got this in their pre-installed sound output? This is a link to the Mogul on test where you can hear these clicks: 

 

Andy

 

I am now told the little ‘click’  is the sound of the pressure being maintained on the vacuum brakes – something common to most GWR locos until they modernised them all with air brake fittings.  So it is deliberate, though I think it should be more of a little air ‘pshhht’ noise than the click I am getting. I find it sufficiently tedious I think I will get John at YouChoos to reprogramme my sound files.

Sounds like a decent project to be honest - might be my cloth ears but I didnt pick up an obtrusive 'tick'. I presume this is a Mr Sound Guy on a Zimo?

[Andy Keane]

41 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Sounds like a decent project to be honest - might be my cloth ears but I didnt pick up an obtrusive 'tick'. I presume this is a Mr Sound Guy on a Zimo?

Maybe its me - I have checked with Dapol tech support and they confirm its meant to be there - its just on the overrun when the chuffing dies back I find it rather intrusive. I am hoping there is a CV setting that will allow me to turn that bit of the sound down a tad.

Andy

[Harlequin]

46 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Maybe its me - I have checked with Dapol tech support and they confirm its meant to be there - its just on the overrun when the chuffing dies back I find it rather intrusive. I am hoping there is a CV setting that will allow me to turn that bit of the sound down a tad.

Andy

 

All GWR engines do it, at least all those with crosshead driven vaccuum pumps. It's a pressure relief valve and should "spit" rather than knock or tap. When it's very loud @The Stationmaster will tell you that it needs some attention. 😉

 

You can hear it on this video on various engines including 5322.

 

Edit: There should be two "spits" per wheel revolution and your chuff sync is way out - far too may chuffs (and spits) per revolution.

 

Edited February 22 by Harlequin

[Ian Hargrave]

Typical GW “spit”….authentic. Accurascale Manor does it too…enjoy !

[No Decorum]

50 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Typical GW “spit”….authentic. Accurascale Manor does it too…enjoy !

I enjoy it on my Manor – I think it’s a lovely feature. The Manor chuffs heavily until it reaches the set speed, when it quietens, then when decelerating the chuffs cease and the vac pump is very clearly heard. I’m used to paying about £100 for manufacturer installed sound, so I have avoided Dapol  sound, which requires an uplift of £125. (Skinflint.) Now that I’ve experienced Dapol sound, I don’t grudge the £25 extra.

 

If Dapol ever produces Lady of Legend, I dread to think what that lady of legend Pru Leith with think of the imitation of her innards. 😄

[Andy Keane]

I have indeed listened to some youtube tracks to hear this sound - I just think on my Dapol its loud compared to the chuffs - I am investigating to see if I can turn it down a bit. Also it would be good to play with the number of chuffs pre wheel turn - these are two cylinder engines so I assume four chuffs per wheel revolution would be correct.

[MikeParkin65]

50 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I enjoy it on my Manor – I think it’s a lovely feature. The Manor chuffs heavily until it reaches the set speed, when it quietens, then when decelerating the chuffs cease and the vac pump is very clearly heard. I’m used to paying about £100 for manufacturer installed sound, so I have avoided Dapol  sound, which requires an uplift of £125. (Skinflint.) Now that I’ve experienced Dapol sound, I don’t grudge the £25 extra.

 

If Dapol ever produces Lady of Legend, I dread to think what that lady of legend Pru Leith with think of the imitation of her innards. 😄

In my experience the running quality of Zimo equipped loco's is superior to most (but not all ESU) projects - which is what most other manufacturers are bundling with the loco for £100). £25 extra is still good value if you look at what Zimo sound project plus speaker(S) will cost if bought separately to self fit. The best value aftermarket at the moment is from Locoman on D&H decoders - currently £92 for chip plus recorded delivery and speaker if needed.  He's got a new one out for a Manor which I'm sure would also be suitable for a 43xx

Edited February 22 by MikeParkin65
Spelling and typos

[Andy Keane]

I have now changed CV 267 from its value of 29 to 58 to slow down my chuff rate - it seemed to be set for a four cylinder engine rather two. Keith at Dapol has helpfully supplied some notes on the various CV settings in their sound project - I think they should really send these out with the loco itself. This is the result - not perfect but much better:

 

Edited February 22 by Andy Keane

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, Andy Keane said:

I have now changed CV 267 from its value of 29 to 58 to slow down my chuff rate - it seemed to be set for a four cylinder engine rather two. Keith at Dapol has helpfully supplied some notes on the various CV settings in their sound project - I think they should really send these out with the loco itrself.

Four cylinder and two cylinder GWR locos have the same number of chuffs per revolution.

 

Sound projects are often out of sync at first. They can't account for all the loco/gearing combinations they will be used with and in this case it may have been set up for the old batch 1 Moguls where the gear ratio was different.

 

(Sometimes sound project designers simply don't understand the chuffs per revolution of the prototype.)

 

[Andy Keane]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Four cylinder and two cylinder GWR locos have the same number of chuffs per revolution.

 

Sound projects are often out of sync at first. They can't account for all the loco/gearing combinations they will be used with and in this case it may have been set up for the old batch 1 Moguls where the gear ratio was different.

 

(Sometimes sound project designers simply don't understand the chuffs per revolution of the prototype.)

 

I am confused - I thought with two extra cylinders they would be timed to exhaust in between the other two and, all being double acting, I expected a two cylinder engine to give four beats per revolution and a four cylinder engine to give eight? Does this mean that the timing is set up so that on four cylinders the pistons are in pairs like on a four cylinder four-stroke petrol engine? Clearly I have much to learn! 

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, Andy Keane said:

I am confused - I thought with two extra cylinders they would be timed to exhaust in between the other two and, all being double acting, I expected a two cylinder engine to give four beats per revolution and a four cylinder engine to give eight? Does this mean that the timing is set up so that on four cylinders the pistons are in pairs like on a four cylinder four-stroke petrol engine? Clearly I have much to learn! 

On the face of it you'd think 8 thrusts per revolution would make for a smoother ride - although maybe not because it would mean thrusts were not equalised across the frame.

 

I think the practical problem is that the valve timing events offset at 1/8ths would require twice as many return cranks and possibly some separate outside valve gear if rocker arms from the inside were too complicated to set up.

 

Remember that on the GWR four cylinder locos the outside cylinder valves are worked by rocker arms from the inside so their timing is simply the inverse of one of the inside valves.

 

[The Johnster]

19 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

something common to most GWR locos until they modernised them all with air brake fittings. 

 

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

its just on the overrun when the chuffing dies back

 

GWR locos were never 'modernised' with air brake fitttings by the GW or BR; in fact the Westinghouse Air Brake fittings were removed from absorbed/constituent locos like Barry Railways after the grouping.  Some GW locos have recieved air brake fittings in preservation in order to run with air-braked main line stock, but never in pre-preservation service.  The Vale of Rheidol has converted to air brake throughout and it's locos have Westinghouse air brake fittings.  Air brakes on steam locos are easily spotted as they carry vertically mounted Westinghouse air pumps to maintain the brake pressure; this is the gubbins usually situated on the side of the smokebox that makes a pppphhh ppphhh sound as it rebuilds air pressure, sometimes when the loco is stationary.  Another version was found on emu Southern and LT stock, and went 'chunka-chunka-chunka', a noise which no doubt still haunts the dreams of Londoners over about 40 years old...

 

The vacuum brake version of this is the vacuum pump, and on GW outside-cyldinderd locos it was mounted horizontally on the rh side of the loco just above the cylinder, and driven by a motion-actuated piston.  It operated continuously when the loco was in moton, and the t-t-t twice per driving wheel revolution was continuous as well, but obviously easier to hear when the engine is not chuffing, such as when coasting downhill, hence 'on the overrun when the chuffing dies back'.  It is a very characteristic GW sound, and was quite noticeable in reality.  The t-t-t became more a ts-ts-ts on high-mileage engines due for overhaul, accompanied by a small amout of steam leakage.

 

I can't comment on how realistic the Dapol noise is, as I can't afford DCC.  I make my own chuff chuff and t-t-t noises, sometimes out loud.  The Squeeze is fully aware that I'm bonkers and ignores me.

[sjrixon]

36 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I have now changed CV 267 from its value of 29 to 58 to slow down my chuff rate - it seemed to be set for a four cylinder engine rather two. Keith at Dapol has helpfully supplied some notes on the various CV settings in their sound project - I think they should really send these out with the loco itself. This is the result - not perfect but much better:

 

Can you share your CV notes here, so others can find them please..

 

Looks like mine is due shortly! :)

[The Johnster]

35 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I have now changed CV 267 from its value of 29 to 58 to slow down my chuff rate - it seemed to be set for a four cylinder engine rather two.

 

That doesn't quite make sense, Andy; a 4-cylinder steam engine has the same chuff rate as a 2-cylinder one, four per driving wheel revolution (the exception is the 4-cyl Southern Railway Lord Nelson class where the eccentrics are offset at 135 degrees from each other rather than 90, resulting in eight chuffs per driving wheel revolution.  3-cylinder locos like the LMS Jubilee, Patriot, and Royal Scot classes, LNER V2s and pacifics, and Southern Bullieds, produce six beats per driving wheel revolution.