OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Harlequin]

In natural daylight: old mogul at the rear, new mogul at the front:

[BenL]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

In natural daylight: old mogul at the rear, new mogul at the front:

The smoke box on the new one also appears to have lost its rivets on the front and rear edges, or is this a prototypical feature?

[Miss Prism]

My view on the state of Moguls in BR days is that the lined ones were kept fairly clean (at least an attempt was made to keep them clean), but the unlined ones were left to get extremely grubby. Even the lined ones could look uncared for - here's a lined 6313 on station pilot duties at Reading on  28 March 1959. It lasted only a couple of more years, so I doubt it ever looked respectable again. Reading shed's cleaning resources were getting very low by that time.

 

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

24 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

My view on the state of Moguls in BR days is that the lined ones were kept fairly clean (at least an attempt was made to keep them clean), but the unlined ones were left to get extremely grubby. Even the lined ones could look uncared for - here's a lined 6313 on station pilot duties at Reading on  28 March 1959. It lasted only a couple of more years, so I doubt it ever looked respectable again. Reading shed's cleaning resources were getting very low by that time.

 

 

 

And this example could have been called upon to take express duties for any failed locomotive westward ex-Paddington ? 

[The Great Bear]

1 hour ago, BenL said:

The smoke box on the new one also appears to have lost its rivets on the front and rear edges, or is this a prototypical feature?

The Andrews books says that in the early years flush headed rivets were used, A few pictures in that book show locos which rivets on the smokebox aren't visible - photos up to the mid 1920s perhaps, but all the others show visible rivets. So the flush finish looks to be correct only for a limited early set of prototypes I think?

[Miss Prism]

Smokebox riveting, like many other GWR things, was an evolving situation. Flush-riveted smokeboxes featured on all early builds, up to c 1922 *. After that, rivets began to appear on the rear smokebox ring, and then full (front and back ring) riveting became establish from c 1928. These updating patterns were established on new build and on works visits of existing locos. Rarely, snapheads were on the front smokebox ring and not the rear. Also, some/many older smokebox wrappers continued in existence. And of course, boiler swapping meant that locos could have different appearances from time to time. Not sure when the last flush-riveted ring could be spotted - 1937??
 

 

Edit:  * Probably more like 1919/20, from evidence of lot 209, although subsequent lots 210 and 211 were probably built flush-riveted.

 

 

 

Edited February 12 by Miss Prism
Askerisk caveat added

[Pteremy]

27 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Smokebox riveting, like many other GWR things, was an evolving situation.

 

To illustrate this in the Maidment book on GWR Moguls and Prairies there are 2 photos of 4301. On p118 with flush rivets, shortly after building in 1911, and on p119 with visible rivets, ex works at Swindon in the 'late 1920's'. There is also a photo, p123, of 6332, built 1921, with (it appears) flush rivets at the front but not at the back - the photograph was taken c1930-32 to illustrate the fitting of the experimental Westinghouse air brake. While back in Andrews, p25, there is a photo of 8329 in 1928 (built as 5329 in 1917 then modified to 8329 in 1928) which, despite modification, appears to have retained flush rivets front and back.

[1466]

48 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Smokebox riveting, like many other GWR things, was an evolving situation. Flush-riveted smokeboxes featured on all early builds, up to c 1922. After that, rivets began to appear on the rear smokebox ring, and then full (front and back ring) riveting became establish from c 1928. These updating patterns were established on new build and on works visits of existing locos. Rarely, snapheads were on the front smokebox ring and not the rear. Also, some/many older smokebox wrappers continued in existence. And of course, boiler swapping meant that locos could have different appearances from time to time. Not sure when the last flush-riveted ring could be spotted - 1937??
 

 

49 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Smokebox riveting, like many other GWR things, was an evolving situation. Flush-riveted smokeboxes featured on all early builds, up to c 1922. After that, rivets began to appear on the rear smokebox ring, and then full (front and back ring) riveting became establish from c 1928. These updating patterns were established on new build and on works visits of existing locos. Rarely, snapheads were on the front smokebox ring and not the rear. Also, some/many older smokebox wrappers continued in existence. And of course, boiler swapping meant that locos could have different appearances from time to time. Not sure when the last flush-riveted ring could be spotted - 1937??
 

I guess , Miss Prism, that flush riveting required more skill than those that stand proud ? I’m  relating this to what little I know about Spitfires . The Mark one was hand built with flush rivets . Come the Battle of Britain  , there’s a great need for more aircraft. So the Mark 2 was “ productionlised “ with flush  rivets in critical airflow sites and proud in less demanding areas . I love the story that half round peas were glued on to find the demarcation. 

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, 1466 said:

 

I guess , Miss Prism, that flush riveting required more skill than those that stand proud ? I’m  relating this to what little I know about Spitfires . The Mark one was hand built with flush rivets . Come the Battle of Britain  , there’s a great need for more aircraft. So the Mark 2 was “ productionlised “ with flush  rivets in critical airflow sites and proud in less demanding areas . I love the story that half round peas were glued on to find the demarcation. 

 

Not so much more skill, just took longer to do. 

 

It was something that fell out of favour during WWI as much as anything, as you were trying to do the job as quickly as possible rather than worrying about aesthetics.

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

6378, at OOC, September 1933, with a flush-riveted front smokebox ring and snapheads on the rear ring.

 

[57xx]

3 hours ago, BenL said:

The smoke box on the new one also appears to have lost its rivets on the front and rear edges, or is this a prototypical feature?

 

As already mentioned, prototypical. It looks like they have two boiler mouldings, one for the fat parallel chimney and one for the tapered chimney. The latter has the rivets. The Mogul book shows 4388 with the parallel copper top chimney and flush rivets in 1919. On the next page is 5350 with the first all cast iron parallel chimney but with visible rivets on the smokebox in 1925. It could have had a boiler swap since it was built in 1918, but appears to incorrect for Dapol's version. The flush smokebox looks to be correct for their 4321 in garter crest livery. It appears to be a production compromise to get the chimney varations.

[St Enodoc]

16 hours ago, Harlequin said:

In natural daylight: old mogul at the rear, new mogul at the front:

Never mind the paint, what about the vacuum pipes (on both models)?

[Craigw]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

Never mind the paint, what about the vacuum pipes (on both models)?

 They are the taller one that was phased out in the mid-late 1920s (mostly)

[St Enodoc]

21 minutes ago, Craigw said:

 They are the taller one that was phased out in the mid-late 1920s (mostly)

Thanks. I didn't know that.

[The Johnster]

Nearer mogul does not have rivets on smokebox, and I think the valance is a little thinner as well, though that could be shadow misleading me.  

[wainwright1]

I had been contemplating the ROD liveried version of this in khaki livery but disliked the very light 'sand' livery they showed on the pre-production model. I saw somewhere that it was said that the error in the livery had been noted and would be corrected to Khaki for the production model. However, when I saw the model yesterday, it would appear that nothing has been corrected.

[Grimfool]

I received my new Dapol Mogul in BR lined Black (5370) for Rails of Sheffield on Saturday. On unpacking it I found that the front right buffer had no spring in it. I contacted Rail and they said they would send me a new buffer to fit which I have no problem with. However today when looking at the model I noticed that the engine buffers have parallel shanks but the tender buffers are tapered. Is this correct and if not which should they be?

[Miss Prism]

19 minutes ago, Grimfool said:

Is this correct and if not which should they be?

 

It was perfectly normal for a loco and its tender to have different buffer styles.

 

[Siberian Snooper]

Tenders were swapped nearly as often as boilers.

 

 

[Mikkel]

But not as often as Prime Ministers.

[57xx]

I had mine out on the test track at the weekend. It didn't really require running in at all, a quiet and very slow smooth starter right out of the box. I gave it an hour or so in each direction just in case there were any faults lurking but it remained impeccable. 

[NHY 581]

On 11/02/2024 at 10:38, Ian Hargrave said:

I’m therefore in a quandary about a black e/c version .The only guides I have atm are images on Kernow & Rails websites. 

 

 

I had a look at one today in the shop, Ian. 

 

The black parts are undoubtedly a dark, arguably slate grey, Panzer grey at best. The BR black simply aren't. They are without doubt grey and an odd choice made by Dapol. 

 

Next time I'm in ( Thursday) if no one had done so, I'll photograph one alongside an Accurascale black Manor by way of comparison. 

 

Rob. 

[NHY 581]

On 11/02/2024 at 11:17, Harlequin said:

In natural daylight: old mogul at the rear, new mogul at the front:

 

Yep, that's a pretty accurate rendition of the colours I saw today. 

 

Rob

[Ian Hargrave]

5 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

I had a look at one today in the shop, Ian. 

 

The black parts are undoubtedly a dark, arguably slate grey, Panzer grey at best. The BR black simply aren't. They are without doubt grey and an odd choice made by Dapol. 

 

Next time I'm in ( Thursday) if no one had done so, I'll photograph one alongside an Accurascale black Manor by way of comparison. 

 

Rob. 

Many thanks,Rob. By coincidence,I’m atm looking at 2 e/c…lined & plain black Accurascale Manors. So your help in this is much appreciated.Certainly both these Manors are convincing so the comparison will be crucial.

[NHY 581]

1 minute ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Many thanks,Rob. By coincidence,I’m atm looking at 2 e/c…lined & plain black Accurascale Manors. So your help in this is much appreciated.Certainly both these Manors are convincing so the comparison will be crucial.

 

No problem, Ian. The finish on the A/S black Manors is excellent......there is a clear difference which I fear in the case of the 53xx is not easy to remedy but as soon as I can on Thursday, I'll post a few photos. 

 

Rob.