long island jack Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 As an exhibitor at this years show, we set off at 7am Friday arrived 2pm set 2 layouts up till 6pm,then caught the tail end of rush hour while trying to find the hotel at 7.30! Then your up for breakfast at 7am,to find the Hotel couldn't cope with everyone turning up for an early breakfast, then you've got to be there for the Advance tickets at 9.30(which makes it a long day) Then do it all again Sunday 9.30-4.30, then drop both layouts, fight for the one lift that was working, leave at 6pm getting home at 1am. I think 10-5pm and 10-4.30, is more than ample time to look round, those advance tickets seem a bit pointless in this day and age, when the bargains are very few, and all the prices are very very similar. It suppose to be a hobby, that you enjoy, but when it starts to be a toil, one may have to rethink, all in all, did enjoy the weekend and thanks Nick for the invite, weather i'd do again, jury's out. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Speaking generally and not about Alley Palley. Half an hour earlier for advance ticket holders is a bit of a thank you to those who have bought advance tickets. It also helps with crowd control at larger exhibitions by staggering the queues and any surges. I would agree with Phil’s comments. It just isn’t going to be viable for small traders to attend large exhibitions. Don’t forget that on top of the cost of a stand at the exhibition, a trader will probably have to fork out for two nights in a hotel in London plus transport costs plus maybe having to pay someone to “look after the shop” at home. And they miss out on the potential for a rest day on Sunday. Not easy to do if you are either a shoestring operation or running a business in your spare time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 As an exhibitor at this years show, we set off at 7am Friday arrived 2pm set 2 layouts up till 6pm,then caught the tail end of rush hour while trying to find the hotel at 7.30! Then your up for breakfast at 7am,to find the Hotel couldn't cope with everyone turning up for an early breakfast, then you've got to be there for the Advance tickets at 9.30(which makes it a long day) Then do it all again Sunday 9.30-4.30, then drop both layouts, fight for the one lift that was working, leave at 6pm getting home at 1am. I think 10-5pm and 10-4.30, is more than ample time to look round, those advance tickets seem a bit pointless in this day and age, when the bargains are very few, and all the prices are very very similar. It suppose to be a hobby, that you enjoy, but when it starts to be a toil, one may have to rethink, all in all, did enjoy the weekend and thanks Nick for the invite, weather i'd do again, jury's out. Ray Exhibiting is hard work. The bigger the exhibition the more intense the experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Speaking generally and not about Alley Palley. Half an hour earlier for advance ticket holders is a bit of a thank you to those who have bought advance tickets. It also helps with crowd control at larger exhibitions by staggering the queues and any surges. I would agree with Phil’s comments. It just isn’t going to be viable for small traders to attend large exhibitions. Don’t forget that on top of the cost of a stand at the exhibition, a trader will probably have to fork out for two nights in a hotel in London plus transport costs plus maybe having to pay someone to “look after the shop” at home. And they miss out on the potential for a rest day on Sunday. Not easy to do if you are either a shoestring operation or running a business in your spare time. Also, that specialist trader would normally have his customers contacting him throughout the week. If he then goes to a show, how much of that business would be siphoned off and become exhibition trade instead. In other words, not extra custom? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 I certainly found this year more relaxing / fun as a punter than last year behind my layout. No panic to dash to see layouts or traders unlike last year when I only had an hour off from operating and needed to take the weight off for 10 mins. Then there’s lunch to manage between you. This year I had 4.5 hours I disturbed to wander round, consider purchases, study layouts (including getting info to take back to the club exh mgr) and best of all, a pint or two of Betty Stogs. I went by train whereas last year I was the designated driver to the hotel each way. I still like exhibiting and we will be at Ally Pally, Warley and other big shows regularly over the next 4 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted March 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 29, 2018 At least the show is being talked about. After all, there's no such thing as bad publicity, unless you are an Australian cricketer. Geoff Endacott Funny that, no one was interested when I sandpapered my balls. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted March 29, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 29, 2018 Funny that, no one was interested when I sandpapered my balls. Mike. You weren't caught doing it by a camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 29, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 29, 2018 You weren't caught doing it by a camera! Maybe Mike's pictures end up on the dark net................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonafide Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Exhibition Opening Hours In 1976 the opening times of four of the major shows were as follows: MRC, Central Hall Monday 10.30 - 18.00 Tuesday 10.30 - 21.00 Wednesday 10.30 - 21.00 Thursday 10.30 - 21.00 Friday 10.30 - 21.00 Saturday 10.30 - 18.00 York Saturday 10.15 - 20.00 Monday 10.15 - 20.00 Tuesday 10.15 - 19.00 Bristol Thursday 10.00 - 21.00 Friday 10.00 - 19.00 Saturday 10.00 - 19.00 Manchester Friday 12.00 - 21.00 Saturday 10.00 - 21.00 Sunday 10.00 - 18.00 Perhaps in those days exhibitors were made of sterner stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2018 I recall helping my mate when the MRC show was held in the Horticultural Halls, that was almost a whole week with a couple of late nights. I think our team stopped talking to each other for nearly six months. It was very strenuous worse than work, it is a hobby after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) Speaking generally and not about Alley Palley. Half an hour earlier for advance ticket holders is a bit of a thank you to those who have bought advance tickets. It also helps with crowd control at larger exhibitions by staggering the queues and any surges. I would agree with Phil’s comments. It just isn’t going to be viable for small traders to attend large exhibitions. Don’t forget that on top of the cost of a stand at the exhibition, a trader will probably have to fork out for two nights in a hotel in London plus transport costs plus maybe having to pay someone to “look after the shop” at home. And they miss out on the potential for a rest day on Sunday. Not easy to do if you are either a shoestring operation or running a business in your spare time. Early start for a few works with a few of the larger shows where there are minimal set ups (demonstrators) on the day. Most shows could not cope with this. But as Long Island Jack nas pointed out it does have implications for some of the exhibitors As for the type of retail support, Ally Pally is somewhat unique in that the layouts are all of a very high standard which attracts modellers from all ability levels plus a very generous amount of general public. There was a lot of trade and competition was fierce with the box shifters,the opposite for those traders who support the kit and scratch building community, very poor support for the event with very few in attendance. There were plenty of demonstration stands, always with plenty of interested spectators, but very few specialist traders. The small hall was not full and one stand had a hedgehog charity on it. A worthy charity , but its a model railway show. All I can think of is the cost of the stands is too high for these companies. I came home with money in my pockets as I could not buy some basics I was after (one of the items was bogie wheels) Edited March 30, 2018 by hayfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted March 30, 2018 Administrators Share Posted March 30, 2018 Early start for a few works with a few of the larger shows where there are minimal set ups (demonstrators) on the day. Most shows could not cope with this. But as Long Island Jack nas pointed out it does have implications for some of the exhibitors As for the type of retail support, Ally Pally is somewhat unique in that the layouts are all of a very high standard which attracts modellers from all ability levels plus a very generous amount of general public. There was a lot of trade and competition was fierce with the box shifters, except for those traders who support the kit and scratch building community. There were plenty of demonstration stands, always with plenty of interested spectators, but very few specialist traders. The small hall was not full and one stand had a hedgehog charity on it. A worthy charity , but its a model railway show. All I can think of is the cost of the stands is too high for these companies. I came home with money in my pockets as I could not buy some basics I was after (one of the items was bogie wheels) I think you may have answered your own point. The traders "who support the kit and scratch building community" weren't as inundated as the "box shifters". That would suggest that the audience was more interested in RTR. Bogies wheels - did you try H&A models (who told me they had a good show, so kits were selling) ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted March 30, 2018 Administrators Share Posted March 30, 2018 I would agree with Phil’s comments. It just isn’t going to be viable for small traders to attend large exhibitions. Don’t forget that on top of the cost of a stand at the exhibition, a trader will probably have to fork out for two nights in a hotel in London plus transport costs plus maybe having to pay someone to “look after the shop” at home. And they miss out on the potential for a rest day on Sunday. Not easy to do if you are either a shoestring operation or running a business in your spare time. I don't think it's just that small traders can't attend large shows, I suspect even if the stand was free, it wouldn't be worth it financially. As you correctly say, there are fuel and accommodation costs on top of stand fees to be covered. For 2 people in a chain hotel, that's going to be a couple of hundred quid. Add another hundred quid for travel (not just fuel, this is a business so you charge running costs) and we are likely to be at £300+ which is a lot of etched brass bits to flog in two days. Oh, and another weekend lost, possibly valuable time that could be used in another way such as developing an manufacturing product. Smaller, specialist traders need to be at a show where there is a very high percentage of potential customers, and those are very few and far between. High-Level kits or Judith Edge would both be good examples. How many people at Ally Pally were really in the market for either's products and wouldn't have bought by mail order? The mass market has moved away from lots of loco building. Big chunks of it don't even fit the detailing bits in the bag supplied with an RTR model. Basically, the hobby is changing. 15 years ago, did you find stands offering weathering services or filling bunkers with coal? Now, most shows have at least one because that is how the demand has changed. It's not wrong, just different. Someone will probably say "I could look at the models and might order in the future so it's advertising." but when you get to the Tesco checkout, saying "Joe Bloggs is going to order a kit in 2 years, can I pay you then?" isn't going to cut it. The other thought is that your relationship with a small, specialist trader is different from that with a large general model seller. I can only buy a Judith Edge kit from them, but at a show, I don't just look at the finished model, I chat with the person who designed it. If I have a problem, that same person will normally be happy to help me out. I can have those chats at smaller shows but in the hurly-burly of a large event? One size show will never fit all IMHO. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardS Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Exhibition Opening Hours In 1976 the opening times of four of the major shows were as follows: MRC, Central Hall Monday 10.30 - 18.00 Tuesday 10.30 - 21.00 Wednesday 10.30 - 21.00 Thursday 10.30 - 21.00 Friday 10.30 - 21.00 Saturday 10.30 - 18.00 York Saturday 10.15 - 20.00 Monday 10.15 - 20.00 Tuesday 10.15 - 19.00 Bristol Thursday 10.00 - 21.00 Friday 10.00 - 19.00 Saturday 10.00 - 19.00 Manchester Friday 12.00 - 21.00 Saturday 10.00 - 21.00 Sunday 10.00 - 18.00 Perhaps in those days exhibitors were made of sterner stuff. In 1976 most people worked 9 to 5, there was no Sunday trading as we have now and many families survived on one wage earner. Nowadays with all the social and work changes which I'm not going to list life is so different and people generally so tired I feel their energies are diverted in surviving. Not less stern just busier overall. And often knackered. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I think you may have answered your own point. The traders "who support the kit and scratch building community" weren't as inundated as the "box shifters". That would suggest that the audience was more interested in RTR. Bogies wheels - did you try H&A models (who told me they had a good show, so kits were selling) ? Phil Poor written reply which I have edited. Very poor support from the specialist traders, I could find Romford wheels but mot Alan Gibsons. I think both Phil at C&L and Dave at Roxey had good shows, Hobby Holidays seemed from memory to have a larger stand last weekend. The point I was badly making is its a show that attracts a large crowd and clearly supports the box shifters, but there were a large number of visitors who I see at the more specialist shows, several commented to the lack of the likes of Wizard Models, Alan Gibson, Southeastern Finecast, Phoenix etc, many of whom are at York this weekend. It might be that they could not attend both and for those in the north York is easier, but this is the premier show in London. Has some of the best selection and number of demonstrators, but very little trade support Agreed the box shifters I guess serve the bulk of visitors, thus I guess make the most profit. However that's not to say the show should ignore this sector. I just thought the balance of traders was not there that's all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) I have done shows where the opening hours went into the evening as an exhibitor. Wakefield and Manchester used to open on the Friday evening (Wakefield still does) and those sessions were and are well attended but if a whole day isn't long enough to see the whole show, then 4 hours in an evening certainly isn't. A whole day plus the evening is a real killer. As an operator, I ended up very tired, making constant mistakes and just wanting to go home. Those staying in hotels had no opportunity for a bit of a social in the evening as it was straight back to the hotel and collapse into bed. Bearing in mind that those showing layouts are giving up big chunks of their time and putting in a lot of work to bring layouts etc. out to shows, if the experience is then made into a really hard slog, with no time for a relax and a bit of fun, then it may result in some choosing not to attend. Back in those days, most of us were younger, fitter and dafter than we are now. I was in my twenties when I did such shows. We almost saw it is a challenge to bring a layout and keep it going for 10 or more hours. The vast majority of exhibitors are now middle aged or older. Many are in their 70s and 80s. Quite frankly, we need to put our feet up in the evening and relax a bit! Even a show with opening hours like Ally Pally meant packing up and driving home, arriving at 10.00pm after a very long day and taking a couple of very gentle days to recover. Those who want long opening hours should perhaps build some layouts and put their own show on hundreds of miles from where they live and then say if they think it is a good idea. If I was invited to a show with those 1970s opening hours nowadays, I wouldn't go. As simple as that! Edited March 30, 2018 by t-b-g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I don't think it's just that small traders can't attend large shows, I suspect even if the stand was free, it wouldn't be worth it financially. As you correctly say, there are fuel and accommodation costs on top of stand fees to be covered. For 2 people in a chain hotel, that's going to be a couple of hundred quid. Add another hundred quid for travel (not just fuel, this is a business so you charge running costs) and we are likely to be at £300+ which is a lot of etched brass bits to flog in two days. Oh, and another weekend lost, possibly valuable time that could be used in another way such as developing an manufacturing product. Smaller, specialist traders need to be at a show where there is a very high percentage of potential customers, and those are very few and far between. High-Level kits or Judith Edge would both be good examples. How many people at Ally Pally were really in the market for either's products and wouldn't have bought by mail order? The mass market has moved away from lots of loco building. Big chunks of it don't even fit the detailing bits in the bag supplied with an RTR model. Basically, the hobby is changing. 15 years ago, did you find stands offering weathering services or filling bunkers with coal? Now, most shows have at least one because that is how the demand has changed. It's not wrong, just different. Someone will probably say "I could look at the models and might order in the future so it's advertising." but when you get to the Tesco checkout, saying "Joe Bloggs is going to order a kit in 2 years, can I pay you then?" isn't going to cut it. The other thought is that your relationship with a small, specialist trader is different from that with a large general model seller. I can only buy a Judith Edge kit from them, but at a show, I don't just look at the finished model, I chat with the person who designed it. If I have a problem, that same person will normally be happy to help me out. I can have those chats at smaller shows but in the hurly-burly of a large event? One size show will never fit all IMHO. Phil In one way you are right but there were a few specialists there doing good business. also there were a lot of their customers there. Many of the usual attendees of the likes of Expo, Railex, Scalefour were there. Lets face it the biggest draw is the layouts, and we were privileged to see some first class layouts. I just think it could be even better with the addition of more specialist trade support, there certainly seemed to be space available, which you could say, could have been earning money Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2018 The vast majority of exhibitors are now middle aged or older. Many are in their 70s and 80s. Quite frankly, we need to put our feet up in the evening and relax a bit! Even a show with opening hours like Ally Pally meant packing up and driving home, arriving at 10.00pm after a very long day and taking a couple of very gentle days to recover. If I was invited to a show with those 1970s opening hours nowadays, I wouldn't go. As simple as that! You have my sympathy and my appreciation for exhibiting your layout for our enjoyment, for no reward. One thing that may have influenced opening hours in the 70s - others can confirm as I was very young and don't remember the RM listings - was that there were probably far fewer exhibitions. Now almost every weekend throughout the year, there seems to be at least one within about an hour's travel of most people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 The show organisers can’t force small specialists to attend. I’m sure pretty much any big show would be very happy to accept a request from a small specialist who wanted to attend. Some shows do special rates for small manufacturers but, because of other costs and commitments, it only helps a bit. I’m not keen on the term “box shifters” at it sounds a little derogatory. The retail trade exhibitors are a very important part of every exhibition and should be treated with respect. They provide essential income for the show by paying for trade space and their presence is the main reason some visitors go to a show thus increasing attendance. I have heard moans at smaller shows because there wasn’t much in the way of large retail stands. Visitors do like to see plenty of rtr for sale at a show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
long island jack Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I went with a pocket full of money to spend, no one, not even the box pushers had Code 83 track, hoping there's someone at York with it, unless it will be the well known internet trader who'll get my money!!! Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2018 You have my sympathy and my appreciation for exhibiting your layout for our enjoyment, for no reward. One thing that may have influenced opening hours in the 70s - others can confirm as I was very young and don't remember the RM listings - was that there were probably far fewer exhibitions. Now almost every weekend throughout the year, there seems to be at least one within about an hour's travel of most people. That is something that does concern me. For a hobby that people have been saying is possibly on the decline, more and more shows are springing up. Yet there don't seem to be a corresponding increase in the numbers of layouts and traders. Looking back at exhibition diaries from the 60s and 70s, perhaps 10 shows a month all over the country appeared. Now it is 10 every weekend. I can't help but think that the "pool" of layouts and traders has become rather too diluted to allow every show to be full of good quality layouts and traders. One trader I know was doing over 30 shows a year. Each one takes nearly a week of packing, re-stocking, record keeping etc. That is a big chunk of each year and he has cut back to those where he can make a decent amount with the least stress and hassle and hard work. Ally Pally and Warley are two that have fallen by the wayside. Selling smaller items means you have to deal with lots of customers to take as much money as somebody selling one RTR loco. That is really what it comes down to. There are a number of specialist Society shows over the year and if you want the specialist traders, then these are the ones to go for. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymsa Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I ask what is the primary reason a trader attends an exhibition, is it to make money or to raise awareness that the trader is in business. It could be both, I know of one trader who goes to shows and if a profit is made that is a bonus knowing that post show sales will even things up. Even although there was predominantly uk outline for sale which I'm not interested in, I just enjoyed the show for what it was and didnt get hung up that certain traders were not there. Andy 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2018 ...I could find Romford wheels but mot Alan Gibsons.... I have not seen note of it anywhere on RMWeb, but Colin of Alan Gibson has been ill and stocks of parts have been short. The answer machine now says he is getting back to normal with lots of messages of support being received. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2018 Exhibition Opening Hours In 1976 the opening times of four of the major shows were as follows: MRC, Central Hall Monday 10.30 - 18.00 Tuesday 10.30 - 21.00 Wednesday 10.30 - 21.00 Thursday 10.30 - 21.00 Friday 10.30 - 21.00 Saturday 10.30 - 18.00 York Saturday 10.15 - 20.00 Monday 10.15 - 20.00 Tuesday 10.15 - 19.00 Bristol Thursday 10.00 - 21.00 Friday 10.00 - 19.00 Saturday 10.00 - 19.00 Manchester Friday 12.00 - 21.00 Saturday 10.00 - 21.00 Sunday 10.00 - 18.00 Perhaps in those days exhibitors were made of sterner stuff. And younger........ Cheers, Mick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) I must admit that I was a little surprised that Saturday finished at 5pm , but maybe not that Sunday finished at 4.30pm. As regards Saturday, I think one issue here is where the overnight hotel is situated. If it's 'over the road' like the one for the Bristol show was back in the 1980's then a late finish is more acceptable to exhibitors but I understand that the hotel for layout owners at Ally Pally this year was a considerable drive away which adds to the time getting back to your room on Saturday night. Also back in the day exhibition managers were more open to putting layout owners up on Sunday nights at the organiser's expense. I suspect organisers (Warners in this case) would prefer an early finish on Sunday and not paying for an extra night. Edited March 30, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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