The London Festival of Railway Modelling, Ally Pally-24 to 25 March 2018

[hayfield]

4 trains an hour in each direction on a Saturday & Sunday is woeful? 

 

 

Dave

 

May be more about the train replacement services that blight the weekends at the moment. My sister is coming next weekend, given up on the trains. Using the coach instead, only one change at Victoria, plus far cheaper but only 3 connecting services a day.

Edited March 27, 2018 by hayfield

[hayfield]

Precisely that; it was the closest thing to a 1970s anorak I'd got at the weekend. Phil went to the lengths of getting Nick Freezer to equip me with a Zenit EM to take me back to the end of a 1970s platform.

 

 

As usual a great show, please pass our thanks to those behind the scenes who made it happen so well

[Jol Wilkinson]

I thought Andy might be about to pose for the hoodie wearing thief robbing the local corner shop, so that yet another cameo can be added to the "look, this layout has everything"  approach to modelling.

[Andy Y]

I thought Andy might be about to pose for the hoodie wearing thief robbing the local corner shop, 

 

I think I'd go for something of more use than a Zenit EM although it would be useful in flooring any pursuers.

[RichardS]

As we say in Norfolk "ther's a lud o' squit' on here about exhibition times.

 

For the vast majority of exhibitions 10-4.30 is perfectly adequate. If a punter arrives at 10 and is still walking avidly around after 6.5 hours they're either on something or need help.

 

Sometimes you have to accept you cannot see everything and I think it is incumbent upon the organisers of the big exhibitions to make plans and details available beforehand so people can organise their day.  For the Ally Pally show this was a serious omission - the hall plans were available on the organiser's commercial site but were aimed at exhibitors mainly. Railex, Warley etc all make floor plans available. 

 

Of course some folk cannot get to a venue for the opening time but that's not the organiser's fault. It is up to punters to make arrangements to suit their circumstances. Long journey - you might have to stay overnight. More cost but then you want to go to the event. Complicated journey - you might have to leave earlier or accept a shorter visit. One of my colleagues left his home before 7, and we left Norwich at 7.20 arriving at Ally Pally (having made another pick up) at 9.25 after an easy journey via A11. M11, North Circular, Wood Green etc. Easy to park, courtesy bus up the hill, cup of coffee and we're in the hall at about 10.05. We stuck it out til the end but by 16.00 (or maybe earlier) we'd had enough. Home at 18.50.

 

Having exhibited a layout in the 90's I found 6.5 hours of repetitive playing trains was enough to drive me to semi-insanity. My layout was probably boring and I'm not keen on operating but by early mid afternoon we were usually only running a train when a visitor stopped to look. Talking to people was probably the most rewarding aspect of exhibiting - oh and the people watching of course.

 

Exhibiting a model at an exhibition is a voluntary activity and visitors need to remember that. While it is true that having paid an admission fee they can and should have a reasonable expectation of receiving some entertainment which represents value for money this is of course a very vague description. You cannot expect to see a village hall full of large superfine accurate model railways from the four corners of the country unless it is advertised as such. Similarly you cannot expect to see a whole sports centre full of set-track tail chasers if the event is targeted at the more specialised sectors of the market. 

 

Allusion was made to other entertainment types. I think this is valid. Each of us has a finite amount of money to spend on the things which amuse us and occupy our free time. Some have more of everything some less. We choose to spend what we can of this this on what we hope will please us. If we are not pleased we cannot really complain unless what we have received is not what we thought we had bought. Thus if a football team loses there is no complaint because a win was not promised. If an exhibition does not meet our expectations we have to review whether it was the advertising that was at fault or whether it was our own expectations that have misled us. If the latter it's tough. If the former then they may be room to complain but such situation will be very rare. You cannot complain if the exhibits are not to your taste - (nothing for me here - oops sorry wrong thread). As most exhibitions list their exhibits and attractions on the UK Model Shops website it is not unreasonable for event organisers to expect potential visitors use the information they make available. In other words do your research. 

 

Traders are in a no-win situation. Of course all their prices are too high. They conspire together to fix prices. They haven't got what people want. They want to start packing up early if trade is slow. Certain ones aren't there and old Fred specifically wanted to spend 3/6 with W&H Models. They all stock the same things (er???? whose fault is that?) The second hand stock is mostly rubbish (whose fault is that?) and the good stuff is too dear. Can't imagine why they bother.

The preceding sentences are of course satirical in case there is any doubt. Every trader is there to make money - it's their living and I'm sure most do their very best. And I for one thank them for being at exhibitions. Some have complained about lack of bargains. It all depends upon what you were looking for, and how hard you looked I guess. One of my colleagues found two very keenly priced brand new rtr locos which he was looking for.  

 

The particular exhibition under discussion in this thread is not Warley. Although commercially organised I feel as an outsider that there is still a degree of 'localness' to Ally Pally. Localness to London that is. Yes one or two big names are there but then it's a big exhibition. But there are stalls there which are similar to those seen at smaller events in more remote localities. The amount of second hand traders give that feeling I think. I saw several families and I saw one little lad a approach Rails to ask questions.  What I am saying is just because Hornby and Bachmann have stands there's still a local flavour here.

 

Another thing I will mention and which struck me was an increased diversity among the visitors. Although dominated by white males there definitely seemed to be a larger number of people from communities we don't traditionally associate with railway modelling. I really hope that this is trend which continues as there are many potential modellers in these communities which will strengthen and broaden the wider hobby.

 

One contributor above mentioned Warley being open until 6 - yes it's very quiet I've been there after 5 but the layouts are getting ready for the next day - cleaning, reorganising stock etc and the traders are tidying and restocking shelves. It's not really open as it is actually closing down in that period. (It's lovely actually!)

 

Of course things will sometimes go wrong - specific things affecting one person - but I have seen no reason for anybody to complain about the way any of the exhibitions I have visited over the years have been presented or organised when a rational and reasonable assessment of the circumstances are considered. Long may they continue.   

 

So there!

Edited March 27, 2018 by RichardS

[justin1985]

4 trains an hour in each direction on a Saturday & Sunday is woeful?

 

For zone 3 of London, yes it is!

 

The comparison between London Overground routes and other inner suburban routes left in the neglectful hands of franchised TOCs is just embarrassing. LO shows, run the trains at a reliable turn up and go frequency, and the demand is there.

 

J

[Enterprisingwestern]

Spotted at the weekend:

 

AndyScan.jpg

 

That won't work, too much reflection from the upper reaches of the subject!

 

Mike.

[BrushVeteran]

Precisely that; it was the closest thing to a 1970s anorak I'd got at the weekend. Phil went to the lengths of getting Nick Freezer to equip me with a Zenit EM to take me back to the end of a 1970s platform.

I could have lent you something Andy,........................................most of my clothes still hail from the 1970's!

[Jol Wilkinson]

I agree wholeheartedly with RichardS's post 208 and would add, why do people go to exhibitions expecting to get a bargain and then complain when they don't?

 

It costs traders money to attend a show, in addition to their other regular operating costs. After I took early retirement I used to work for a large mail order chandlers at the London Boat Show in Excel (the waterborne equivalent of Hattons). It cost a lot of money for them to attend. Items were often discounted, usually with the support of the manufacturer (electronics, etc,) yet people asked for an extra show discount. When asked "what is your best price?, I would usually respond (with a smile) by adding another 20%. That started a conversation and the buyer invariably paid the already discounted sticker price, satisfied that they weren't being ripped off. 

 

And that's the point. You aren't being ripped off if you are willing to pay the asking price. If that is too much, don't buy it, but don't moan either.  Why do people think that traders should give away their profit just so the buyer can have a bargain?

[BlackRat]

And that's the point. You aren't being ripped off if you are willing to pay the asking price. If that is too much, don't buy it, but don't moan either.  Why do people think that traders should give away their profit just so the buyer can have a bargain?

 

Spot on.....you pays yer money......... if you don't want to pay whatever it is being asked then you walk away, simples.

 

I never cease to be amazed at people who think they are being ripped off because they are asked to pay the MRRP or whatever.

 

I'm sure whatever they did, and whatever their hourly rate is........, they would indeed become vexed......or sorely vexed if someone asked for a big discount!

 

It always seems to be the same people.

Edited March 27, 2018 by BlackRat

[40F]

It just goes to show that before forums/web sites etc nobody knew or cared what went on, now everybody can voice an opinion and appear to know how to solve all the problems involved. RichardS`s post above sums everything up perfectly 

[Andy Y]

Although dominated by white males there definitely seemed to be a larger number of people from communities we don't traditionally associate with railway modelling. I really hope that this is trend which continues as there are many potential modellers in these communities which will strengthen and broaden the wider hobby.

 

Well said. It strikes me each year how much more diversity there is at Ally Pally. It's not representative of society as a whole but at least it's better.

[Northmoor]

Another thing I will mention and which struck me was an increased diversity among the visitors. Although dominated by white males there definitely seemed to be a larger number of people from communities we don't traditionally associate with railway modelling. I really hope that this is trend which continues as there are many potential modellers in these communities which will strengthen and broaden the wider hobby.

Good - it wasn't just me that noticed this.  I overheard a couple of different languages being spoken and yes, ethnicity other than White Male, which reflects modern London I guess (actually it reflects London of at least the last 50 years).  There was a Spanish family discussing Ratio kits in some detail on one stall and one trader dealing with a German visitor/customer in his own language (fluently by the sound of it).

 

The more the merrier I say.

[Clive Mortimore]

Spotted at the weekend:

 

AndyScan.jpg

First thing that came to mind was, I will buy one. A little voodoo doll for when I am next banned.  :no:

 

Second thing, 1970s train spotter? There is something missing, and I am missing the same stuff off my head. :nono:

[Phil Parker]

 

Second thing, 1970s train spotter? There is something missing, and I am missing the same stuff off my head. :nono:

 

I can do that one!

[Andy Y]

I saw a bloke that looked like that in Downfall.

[polybear]

I agree wholeheartedly with RichardS's post 208 and would add, why do people go to exhibitions expecting to get a bargain and then complain when they don't?

 

It costs traders money to attend a show, in addition to their other regular operating costs. After I took early retirement I used to work for a large mail order chandlers at the London Boat Show in Excel (the waterborne equivalent of Hattons). It cost a lot of money for them to attend. Items were often discounted, usually with the support of the manufacturer (electronics, etc,) yet people asked for an extra show discount. When asked "what is your best price?, I would usually respond (with a smile) by adding another 20%. That started a conversation and the buyer invariably paid the already discounted sticker price, satisfied that they weren't being ripped off. 

 

And that's the point. You aren't being ripped off if you are willing to pay the asking price. If that is too much, don't buy it, but don't moan either.  Why do people think that traders should give away their profit just so the buyer can have a bargain?

 

I went to the Model Engineering Exhibition at A.P in January; the RDG Tools Stand (36 - 39, 40, 45) on the show guide shown here:

http://londonmodelengineering.co.uk/showguide.pdf

 

- I overheard one of the staff discussing costs to attend the show - stand, transport, wages, accommodation etc.  It was (IIRC) in the region of 25K for the weekend.  That's a lot of tools to sell just to break even.  However, they also take the view that, even if a customer may not buy anything, they are reminded (or made aware of) the existence of RDG tools which hopefully will lead to sales in the future.

[Legend]

I think you need to be reasonable on opening times 10.00am to 4.30pm would seem OK to me .After a few hours wandering around I'm getting pretty tired and a stiff back. Most folks are giving up their time to do this after all . there has to be fairness all round . As to prices , well whats a cinema ticket these days £10-£12 for a 2 hour film? Your getting 6.5 hours for that, but its not really comparable.

 

I used to enjoy it when Model Rail Scotland ( a three day show) had late opening on a Friday to 8.00pm as that meant could take half day instead of full day off . Get some work done, sign off and go to show in afternoon/ evening. Its easier workwise , but that stopped a few years ago.

 

These exhibitions are getting pretty big these days , that you can't see everything in one go. Including the program in the price also seems to be a new trend. How about offering a 2 day ticket with a couple of quid knocked off, and no second program. That would be OK for me.

 

In life there's lots of things to complain about . I don't think this is up there

Edited March 27, 2018 by Legend

[Phatbob]

In the immortal words of Murray Walker; "it looks like de ja vue, all over again".
Wasn't the whole question of exhibition opening times discussed ad nauseum in a previous thread?  Did not the hive mind conclude that 10-5 Saturday and 10-4 Sunday was the best compromise?  With big shows offering earlier entry for those with advance tickets to enable them to manage the queue at oppening time?

I for one had a great Ally Pally experience this year.  I got some hard to find bits I was after, got a few genuine bargains from the trade (three brand new Dapol Fruit Ds for £30! ) and enjoyed some excellent layouts I'd not seen before.  Saturday night out in that London with Roundhouse, his partner, Warbonnet and the Barrow Beer Monsters was a treat too.  Meticulous organisation from the MRC and a cheerful and professional approach from the AP staff all helped it go well and without incident.  My only complaint is the loss of an hour's kip.    
 

[thirty2a]

I went Saturday, in time for opening. The que system was great I think this year, I was expecting a cattle truck beyond the doors!

[John M Upton]

The main line direct service to Ally Pally (Great Northern - part of the behemoth DfT created GTR Thameslink empire) is normally four an hour but that is now to/from Moorgate which is about as much use on a weekend for anyone travelling from central London to Ally Pally as a concrete parachute.  This weekend however it was half that frequency due to OHLE problems that had been rumbling on since early Friday I believe.

[railroadbill]

Went on Sunday with Mrs Railroadbill and had a great time. Got held up by roadworks, so arrived about 10.30 (last year got there before it opened) but there was no queue at all for tickets so got in very  quickly.  There definitely seemed fewer people this time and there seemed more space between stands as well.

Thought there was a good diversity of layouts, managed to see everything. When I saw World's End, I thought "Knaresborough" straight away, Harlyn Pier brought back memories of  North Cornwall, Addison Road fantastic detail. Thought Calcutta Sidings was unusual for being such a big layout in P4 and running very well. Liked the very smooth and slow turning turntable on Grantham. The real waterfall on Karolina Falls was unusual, the very well controlled r/c steam on Hambleden Valley and the n scale operating trucks on the road at the back of Clifton and Lowther all worth a look as advanced modelling. Interesting to see Ingatestone as a work in progress and historic Leighton Buzzard as well.

Could just as easily picked a different set of layouts, so just saying there was plenty to see imho. 

 

There seemed some young families around and the children's craft area looked well patronised so hope for the hobby's  future.

Easy enough to find seating for coffee breaks etc. so that was good.

 

I bought some  diesel nameplates, sprung GW buffers, scenic bits, 10BA screws,  flashing mock arc welding leds, tins of precision paint, and so on. so plenty of small bits available for me as usual.

 

Thought everyone very friendly and happy to answer questions. 

 

Final thanks to Phil Parker for explaining at length how the diorama box that Didsbury Green was mounted in was put together. Doubt I was the first one to ask that weekend!

[sharris]

Shame there isn't similar in the London area !! 

 

I miss the days of Watford Finescale. 

 

But at least there will be some small suppliers to take my money at Epsom and Ewell.

[t-b-g]

Firstly, a big thank you to everybody involved with the show, including my super gang of operators and those who came to see Leighton Buzzard and said some very nice things about the layout and us taking it out to shows.

 

Exhibiting a layout, especially a rather old one that you didn't build yourself, can be hard work, pretty stressful (when you are risking the reputation of somebody else if it all goes wrong) and tiring. The lovely reception we got made all the effort worthwhile.

 

A special highlight for me was a great chat with a chap who had travelled from Cornwall. He had been at the first public showing of Buckingham in 1948 and we were able to point out all the things that he would have seen back then, as a 15 year old enthusiast. He had some great memories of how the layout was operated and presented, including a train indicator made from a post with plug in removable arms to show which train was to run next. It was probably based on a real GCR train indicator.

 

Opening hours will always be something that people disagree over. Rather like layout heights. There is no right and wrong. Just different opinions. Trade at a show like Ally Pally will always be a matter for debate too. The show must cost an arm and a leg to put on and stand rentals must require a big turnover of stock to create enough profit or publicity to make attending realistic. There were a few specialist stands there, like Hobby Holidays, C & L, Roxey, Model, Precision Paints and others I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

For me, Addison Road is one of those layouts that would make me want to attend a show if I was not sure whether to make the effort. Super modelling, excellent presentation and good people to talk do. Plus a subject matter that is right up my street. A real show stopper now and it isn't even finished!

 

I agree about the diversity of visitors too. It was lovely to see such a mix of ages and ethnicity.

 

One two, who clearly wouldn't have been alive in the heyday of Buckingham in the model press were very knowledgeable about the layout and the construction methods used, which was a very nice surprise.

 

All in all a top weekend, even though it has taken me a couple of days to recover.

[sb67]

Firstly, a big thank you to everybody involved with the show, including my super gang of operators and those who came to see Leighton Buzzard and said some very nice things about the layout and us taking it out to shows.

Exhibiting a layout, especially a rather old one that you didn't build yourself, can be hard work, pretty stressful (when you are risking the reputation of somebody else if it all goes wrong) and tiring. The lovely reception we got made all the effort worthwhile.

A special highlight for me was a great chat with a chap who had travelled from Cornwall. He had been at the first public showing of Buckingham in 1948 and we were able to point out all the things that he would have seen back then, as a 15 year old enthusiast. He had some great memories of how the layout was operated and presented, including a train indicator made from a post with plug in removable arms to show which train was to run next. It was probably based on a real GCR train indicator.

Opening hours will always be something that people disagree over. Rather like layout heights. There is no right and wrong. Just different opinions. Trade at a show like Ally Pally will always be a matter for debate too. The show must cost an arm and a leg to put on and stand rentals must require a big turnover of stock to create enough profit or publicity to make attending realistic. There were a few specialist stands there, like Hobby Holidays, C & L, Roxey, Model, Precision Paints and others I can't recall off the top of my head.

For me, Addison Road is one of those layouts that would make me want to attend a show if I was not sure whether to make the effort. Super modelling, excellent presentation and good people to talk do. Plus a subject matter that is right up my street. A real show stopper now and it isn't even finished!

I agree about the diversity of visitors too. It was lovely to see such a mix of ages and ethnicity.

One two, who clearly wouldn't have been alive in the heyday of Buckingham in the model press were very knowledgeable about the layout and the construction methods used, which was a very nice surprise.

All in all a top weekend, even though it has taken me a couple of days to recover.

Thanks for bringing Leighton Buzzard, it was a privilege to see and to think that not a lot has changed on it in 70 years is mind blowing!

Well done to all involved.

Steve.