Graham Farish 2018 - the full announcements

[fezza]

 

Its in the latest Bachmann times that it’s revealed that Bachmann now have to recover tooling and development costs in the first run of a model, rather than over subsequent runs . I think that’s certainly one of the drivers for large price increases. Of course that would mean the second run should be much more profitable.

 

Yes, that is a very important point.   A move to a more conservative business accounting model can make a major difference.

 

Bachmann also seem to be costing individual projects more carefully.  DMU prices are now the same as a loco + carriage, while previously they were essentially the same as a loco, meaning that their margins on DMUs were significantly lower.  That clearly didn't make sense, especially as DMUs didn't sell as well as locos.

 

I don't think Farish prices are completely unreasonable but I do wonder if the market is sustainable in the long term.  Like others on here, I buy much less than previously.

[Karhedron]

Interesting to note that the forthcoming Dapol Maunsell 3-Sets are being offered at RRP of £82.50. This includes 2 copies of a newly tooled coach (4-Comp Brake 3rd) and 1 existing coach (Composite). By contrast the forthcoming Farish 3-coach Birdcage set has an RRP of £149.99.

 

The Dapol set looks like quite a bargain in that comparison and both sets contain newly tooled vehicles to be amoritised.

[Seanem44]

Yes, that is a very important point.   A move to a more conservative business accounting model can make a major difference.

 

Bachmann also seem to be costing individual projects more carefully.  DMU prices are now the same as a loco + carriage, while previously they were essentially the same as a loco, meaning that their margins on DMUs were significantly lower.  That clearly didn't make sense, especially as DMUs didn't sell as well as locos.

 

I don't think Farish prices are completely unreasonable but I do wonder if the market is sustainable in the long term.  Like others on here, I buy much less than previously.

So how does preexisting tooling fit in?  An 80 pound Deltic Prototype that sold very well... now re-released for 40 pounds more.  Unless they are changing the motor and putting the new coreless in, I don't see how this fits recouping development costs.

[njee20]

You need a degree of parity throughout a range or you just have huge outliers and any new model looks overpriced.. There is nothing inherently wrong with the prototype Deltic tooling, it's just not brand new. We're not talking about a loco from the Poole era. By increasing the cost of the re-run perhaps they amortise the tooling costs more quickly - maybe one run wasn't enough. Maybe the money is being used to offset other tooling costs on more marginal products. Maybe it's just harmonising their range. Maybe it's going into R&D. Maybe it's just increasing their profit margins a bit. I personally have no issue with that at all.

You now seem to have moved on to objecting to a model being re-released at anything but its original price? There are better examples if you want to go down that route, but it's a pointless argument, so please don't!

Edited March 12, 2018 by njee20

[Roy L S]

Seanem44,I don't recall the Farish Deltic Prototype eve having a RRP of £80, it was closer to if not slightly over £100. 

 

It is unrealistic in the extreme to expect subsequent releases to be at the same price, a number of costs have gone up, and even if the tooling has been amortised fully it isn't a reason to expect prices to remain as before or go down - that is no business model to follow!

 

The extra income generated will provide funds to develop future releases and cover the various overheads that the business has, it will also hopefully mean a business with a healthy cash position and viable future.

 

Like it or not, they are driven by business interests and making money, but as has been said many times, nobody is making a killing at model railways, and unsustainably cheap products is in nobody's interests in anything but the short term.

 

Historically model railways has never been an inexpensive hobby, especially N Gauge, and the real problem is that we have until recent times got used to models that were unrealistically cheap. 

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Seanem44]

Seanem44,I don't recall the Farish Deltic Prototype eve having a RRP of £80, it was closer to if not slightly over £100. 

 

It is unrealistic in the extreme to expect subsequent releases to be at the same price, a number of costs have gone up, and even if the tooling has been amortised fully it isn't a reason to expect prices to remain as before or go down - that is no business model to follow!

 

The extra income generated will provide funds to develop future releases and cover the various overheads that the business has, it will also hopefully mean a business with a healthy cash position and viable future.

 

Like it or not, they are driven by business interests and making money, but as has been said many times, nobody is making a killing at model railways, and unsustainably cheap products is in nobody's interests in anything but the short term.

 

Historically model railways has never been an inexpensive hobby, especially N Gauge, and the real problem is that we have until recent times got used to models that were unrealistically cheap. 

 

Regards

 

Roy

I was reading old issues of BRM last night an Hattons had it listed at 80 pounds in March of 2011. 

[njee20]

Which would not have been the RRP. I’m not sure you ever said it was, we’re into semantics though.

Edited March 12, 2018 by njee20

[Seanem44]

 

You now seem to have moved on to objecting to a model being re-released at anything but its original price? There are better examples if you want to go down that route, but it's a pointless argument, so please don't!

 I'm merely using this as a base line for price increases over the past 7 years while also asking a question on how non-new tooling can come in so much higher than it once was.

 

Either way, I guess I'll watch this play out while holding on to my current stock.  If need be, I'll just go back to modelling good old CSXT freight.

[fezza]

So how does preexisting tooling fit in? An 80 pound Deltic Prototype that sold very well... now re-released for 40 pounds more. Unless they are changing the motor and putting the new coreless in, I don't see how this fits recouping development costs.

One-off liveries or prototypes usually attract a premium - they appeal to collectors who are prepared to pay extra. If manufacturers can charge more they obviously will.

[2mmGraham]

Is it only me, or is anyone else concerned by the fact that the N in lined green will only be available with DCC and sound fitted at a catalogue price of £239.95?

[John M Upton]

Although not a model that interests me, I do find it irritating when certain liveries are only made available in DCC/Sound Fitted versions with their premium price tag when I have no interest whatsoever in either.  Yes you can strip the DCC/Sound out of the model post purchase and sell the bits on but there is still the hundred quid plus premium to be paid up front on purchase with no guarantee of recouping it.

[grahame]

Although not a model that interests me, I do find it irritating when certain liveries are only made available in DCC/Sound Fitted versions with their premium price tag when I have no interest whatsoever in either. 

Yep, that can be irritating. But hopefully they will be repeated in those liveries in different DC/DDC configurations for later batches. However, Dapol seem to have been able to offer their new class 68 with each of the liveries to be produced in three options: as DC (but DDC ready); DCC decoder fitted; and sound fitted.

 

G

[scottystitch]

So how does preexisting tooling fit in?  An 80 pound Deltic Prototype that sold very well... now re-released for 40 pounds more.  Unless they are changing the motor and putting the new coreless in, I don't see how this fits recouping development costs.

I didn't realise Deltic prototype was released as a stand alone model as early as 2011, if at all, befor enow. I always thought it was as part of the train set?

 

I appreciate I may be wrong. But if I'm right, could the Hattons price in 2011 have been so keen because it was split from a set?

[mikeharvey22]

The RRP for the prototype Deltic was £89.95 when announced in 2010 according to the list with my catalogue. However on release in 2011 it had risen to £109.95 according to the list with the 2011/12 catalogue.

 

So the current RRP of £144.95 is 32% higher than 7 years ago, so an annual average increase of 4.6%.

[njee20]

If you look at an annualised increase it's less than that - a tiny bit over 4% year on year (4.027%) because of the compounded effect. 

 

Not exactly unreasonable IMO.

 

The effect is more prevalent on rolling stock as said - re-releases of PCA wagons and FIA twins have stood out as having jumped up massively in retail prices. Over 100%.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

One of the reasons that the PCAs and FIAs appear to have jumped in price disproportionately is that they require a significant amount of assembly (lots of extra parts) and this adds, as I have said before, a disproportionate amount to the price.  I also understand that previously Bachmann/Farish would "spread" costs like this across the range, whereas for the last 2-3 years the edict has been that each model must be priced individually according to its bottom line cost.

 

They have said openly that some intricate wagon model - such as the Seacows and Presflos - cannot be produced because they would cost more than Farish judge the market can bear (approx £65-70.)

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Seanem44]

The RRP for the prototype Deltic was £89.95 when announced in 2010 according to the list with my catalogue. However on release in 2011 it had risen to £109.95 according to the list with the 2011/12 catalogue.

 

So the current RRP of £144.95 is 32% higher than 7 years ago, so an annual average increase of 4.6%.

Sounds right, with stores selling it about 20.00 below the RRP.  80.00 in early 2011 and 123.00 suggest now (Rails of Sheffield).

[Seanem44]

If you look at an annualised increase it's less than that - a tiny bit over 4% year on year (4.027%) because of the compounded effect. 

 

Not exactly unreasonable IMO.

 

The effect is more prevalent on rolling stock as said - re-releases of PCA wagons and FIA twins have stood out as having jumped up massively in retail prices. Over 100%.

Coaches.

 

That is where I have seen it the most, along with what you have said.

 

Time to start a blog called the Frugal Modeler, focusing on bargain bin shopping, lol.

[grahame]

They have said openly that some intricate wagon model - such as the Seacows and Presflos - cannot be produced because they would cost more than Farish judge the market can bear (approx £65-70.)

 

  

 

Time to sharpen ones kit building skills and have a bash at the NGS kit#11 seacow hopper wagon.

 

Time to start a blog called the Frugal Modeler, focusing on bargain bin shopping, lol.

There's already a Bargain Hunters thread and several other similar ones.

 

G

[Seanem44]

  

 

Time to sharpen ones kit building skills and have a bash at the NGS kit#11 seacow hopper wagon.

 

 

There's already a Bargain Hunters thread and several other similar ones.

 

G

So there is...  I wasn't going to start one either way, but I imagine the threads will be a little more popular in the current climate.

[Littlethorpe]

Hello all,

 

One of the reasons that the PCAs and FIAs appear to have jumped in price disproportionately is that they require a significant amount of assembly (lots of extra parts) and this adds, as I have said before, a disproportionate amount to the price.  I also understand that previously Bachmann/Farish would "spread" costs like this across the range, whereas for the last 2-3 years the edict has been that each model must be priced individually according to its bottom line cost.

 

They have said openly that some intricate wagon model - such as the Seacows and Presflos - cannot be produced because they would cost more than Farish judge the market can bear (approx £65-70.)

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Maybe they could consider selling the Presflos etc as kits leaving the modeller to assemble, paint and apply transfers. This would remove most of the Bachmann/Farish labour costs.

[Steven B]

Perhaps not as a kit needing painting etc, but maybe something like the old Tri-ang CKD range; A coach would come fully painted and lettered/numbered with a basic underframe, but would require things like brake details adding from a spru of parts included with the model.

 

 

Steven B.

[Seanem44]

Perhaps not as a kit needing painting etc, but maybe something like the old Tri-ang CKD range; A coach would come fully painted and lettered/numbered with a basic underframe, but would require things like brake details adding from a spru of parts included with the model.

 

 

Steven B.

The thing that gets me is the cost of wagons now, when there are still perfectly viable Peco Wagon kits available that are easy to assemble for really good prices.  I think I will be purchasing much more of those in the near future.  They are actually relaxing to build.

[Revolution Ben]

Maybe they could consider selling the Presflos etc as kits leaving the modeller to assemble, paint and apply transfers. This would remove most of the Bachmann/Farish labour costs.

 

Why?  There seem to be an awful lot of reasons for them not to: (1) Poorly assembled models will give them a bad name; (2) the only sales they might harm are those of their own RTR products, (3) The only way to make these worth doing is by increasing the profit margins over RTR, so the price differential probably would not be that high.

 

The thing that gets me is the cost of wagons now, when there are still perfectly viable Peco Wagon kits available that are easy to assemble for really good prices.  I think I will be purchasing much more of those in the near future.  They are actually relaxing to build.

 

But this is a win-win isn't it?  These older, less detailed models give you the option of enjoying your hobby at a price you are willing to accept while those who would rather pay more for higher specification models still can.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Seanem44]

 

But this is a win-win isn't it?  These older, less detailed models give you the option of enjoying your hobby at a price you are willing to accept while those who would rather pay more for higher specification models still can.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

I'm not complaining.  And they are marginally less detailed.  Once assembled and painted, its a wagon.  Theres only so much super detailing a wagon can receive.  All it does is highlight it costs 10 pounds extra to have the thing assembled today by someone in China.