Bulleid Coaches

[30368]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Mind you, if their career required them to work on Southern, there was an animal fear about the complexity of the network and density of service.......

 

Hi Ian,

 

An interesting point. As a Southerner going North in 1974 I experinced the point you make but the reverse case. When I worked for the CM&EE SR at Southern House we spent much time working with Maintrol analysing all delays down to us (Please remind me, delays greater than 2 mins? can't recall now) and introduced mods as appropriate. I also spent time preparing reply's to Parliamentary Questions directed at the then Minister (whoever that was) about delays etc.

 

When I arrived up in Derby I was astonished to find that delays down to M&EE were treated very differently, I hesitate to say in a lacksidaisical way, but very much a low priority. But then I was working for the BRB CM&EE at the capital of the railway world and London was viewed as a very provincial place.....

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

... All in all this means that a typical Southern mainline train consisting of multiple portions had significant numbers of brake coaches within it. Something the model manufacturers miss when deciding which coaches to release and in which quantities.  ...

BUT you must bear in mind that this multi-splitting phenomenon was far more pronounced for trains to the far west with the first portion dropped off, perhaps, at Axminster. Down services destined east or south of Basingstoke would not include one- or two-coach portions - just three-car or longer sets and, maybe, a few loose coaches if traffic warranted : some trains did split but rarely, if ever, into more than two portions - each probably a minimum of a three-car set - and each for another main line destination.

[Dunsignalling]

On 24/10/2022 at 16:18, Wickham Green too said:

BUT you must bear in mind that this multi-splitting phenomenon was far more pronounced for trains to the far west with the first portion dropped off, perhaps, at Axminster. Down services destined east or south of Basingstoke would not include one- or two-coach portions - just three-car or longer sets and, maybe, a few loose coaches if traffic warranted : some trains did split but rarely, if ever, into more than two portions - each probably a minimum of a three-car set - and each for another main line destination.

The through coaches in some services the ACE destined for East Devon branches were worked forward from Templecombe IIRC.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

5 hours ago, 30368 said:

 

Hi Ian,

 

An interesting point. As a Southerner going North in 1974 I experinced the point you make but the reverse case. When I worked for the CM&EE SR at Southern House we spent much time working with Maintrol analysing all delays down to us (Please remind me, delays greater than 2 mins? can't recall now) and introduced mods as appropriate. I also spent time preparing reply's to Parliamentary Questions directed at the then Minister (whoever that was) about delays etc.

 

When I arrived up in Derby I was astonished to find that delays down to M&EE were treated very differently, I hesitate to say in a lacksidaisical way, but very much a low priority. But then I was working for the BRB CM&EE at the capital of the railway world and London was viewed as a very provincial place.....

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

Maintrol - Jim Vine! Richard Sharp, Bill Beavis, Malcolm Pocknell and others. I wasn't aware of the delay minutes issue, but it was probably related to the 10.00 Morning Conference held by RHQ on the phone. They were very hot on wrong formations at start of service, and no doubt some of those were about availability, so Depot Engineers/Managers under pressure. . 

 

I suppose the less-intensive service patterns north of the London area meant there was less emphasis on passenger performance, or at least hounding the guilty! Different times! 

[bude_branch]

As well as banging on about the Diag 2406 BCK on here, I also send Bachmann an occasional e-mail in case they have forgotten about it.  This is the most recent reply received yesterday, which doesn't sound particularly hopeful: 

 

I’m afraid I cannot confirm any upcoming releases of an SR Diagram 2406 Brake Composite Coach.  I’ve had added it as a suggestion to our product suggestions database, which is periodically reviewed by our Research & Development team when they are considering future products.

 

In an attempt to help make the case, assuming someone from Bachmann might read this, here are the daily departures from Waterloo on the West of England Line.  Daily totals for the current Bachmann vehicles are 6 x 2-Set (R) and 4 x 3-Set (L), whereas there are a total of 16 BCKs in use, including no less than 6 on the 11.00 a.m.

 

 

BCK Workings - Waterloo.pdf

Edited October 27, 2022 by bude_branch

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, bude_branch said:

As well as banging on about the Diag 2406 BCK on here, I also send Bachmann an occasional e-mail in case they have forgotten about it.  This is the most recent reply received yesterday, which doesn't sound particularly hopeful: 

 

I’m afraid I cannot confirm any upcoming releases of an SR Diagram 2406 Brake Composite Coach.  I’ve had added it as a suggestion to our product suggestions database, which is periodically reviewed by our Research & Development team when they are considering future products.

 

In an attempt to help make the case, assuming someone from Bachmann might read this, here are the daily departures from Waterloo on the West of England Line.  Daily totals for the current Bachmann vehicles are 6 x 2-Set (R) and 4 x 3-Set (L), whereas there are a total of 16 BCKs in use, including no less than 6 on the 11.00 a.m.

 

 

 

I'm sure Bachmann are 'Aware of the case' as you put it...BUT

 

Bachmann have made it crystal clear they will only announce new products when they are ready to leave the factory or have already arrived in the UK.

 

As such they are hardly going to turn round and break this policy (which seems to be working for them) just for a particular Bullied coach type however much people clamour for it.

 

What you have received is effectively their standard reply - which would be exactly the same regardless of whether a factory is working on said Bullied coach or if it remains an aspiration to be tackled many years hence.

 

Therefore I wouldn't read much into what the words say - you will just have to be patient like the rest of us. That said the occasional missive to Bachmann is no bad thing as even if there is no outward sign, the more requests they get, the more seriously any particular model becomes as a business proposition.

[County of Yorkshire]

To be perfectly honest, you may as well howl your wish for a RTR coaching stock variant at the moon for all the good it does beseeching the RTR manufacturers to make it. 
 

There are so many examples of where it would patently make sense to add coach diagrams to existing model ranges, but the manufacturers don’t seem to want to know. 
 

See: 

 

Hornby Gresleys - no brake third, corridor composite or dining coach

Hornby Staniers - no corridor composite, brake composite or open third

Hornby Colletts - no brake composite, dining coach or full brake 

Bachmann Thompsons - no full brake or dining coach 

 

The only OO RTR steam era coach ranges with anything like comprehensive diagram coverage are the Bachmann Mk 1s and Hornby Maunsells. You could probably make a case for the Hornby Pullmans too. 
 

This is why kitbuilding and/or RTR kitbashing are necessary to run anything approaching prototypically accurate rakes in most cases. 
 

It’s frustrating, but it is what it is. 

[Jack P]

1 hour ago, County of Yorkshire said:

The only OO RTR steam era coach ranges with anything like comprehensive diagram coverage are the Bachmann Mk 1s and Hornby Maunsells.

 

Possibly the Mk.1's, but the Maunsell's are missing a fairly significant portion of the diagrams available. R0/R1 stock + all the other oddities, like the nondescript coaches. 

 

I appreciate that you're making a (very valid) point. But this is me moaning about the lack of maunsell stock 😆

[RFS]

2 hours ago, bude_branch said:

As well as banging on about the Diag 2406 BCK on here, I also send Bachmann an occasional e-mail in case they have forgotten about it.  This is the most recent reply received yesterday, which doesn't sound particularly hopeful: 

 

I’m afraid I cannot confirm any upcoming releases of an SR Diagram 2406 Brake Composite Coach.  I’ve had added it as a suggestion to our product suggestions database, which is periodically reviewed by our Research & Development team when they are considering future products.

 

In an attempt to help make the case, assuming someone from Bachmann might read this, here are the daily departures from Waterloo on the West of England Line.  Daily totals for the current Bachmann vehicles are 6 x 2-Set (R) and 4 x 3-Set (L), whereas there are a total of 16 BCKs in use, including no less than 6 on the 11.00 a.m.

 

Yes, 16 BCKs indeed but are you sure they are all Bulleids? Many Maunsell BCKs were still in use at the time, plus I've seen a couple of photos with MK1 BCKs too. 

 

Here's a photo of the ACE in September 1962, with a Maunsell BCK leading, followed by a MK1, Bulleid 2-set and then a Maunsell 2-set.

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p668741324/e2d57baf6

Edited October 25, 2022 by RFS

[Oldddudders]

21 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Yes, 16 BCKs indeed but are you sure they are all Bulleids? Many Maunsell BCKs were still in use at the time, plus I've seen a couple of photos with MK1 BCKs too. 

 

Here's a photo of the ACE in September 1962, with a Maunsell BCK leading, followed by a MK1, Bulleid 2-set and then a Maunsell 2-set.

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p668741324/e2d57baf6

Right-click the photo and you can go through the entire MN lineup - and also see multiple examples of multi-livery Southern trains, with Maunsell, Bulleid and other generation rolling stock in one train. 

 

It has to be said I assume that some of the 2-sets in West Country use in the 40s and 50s were the 1930s Maunsell rebuilds, as offered  by Hornby. These look suitably olde-worlde behind a T9. 

[RFS]

24 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Right-click the photo and you can go through the entire MN lineup - and also see multiple examples of multi-livery Southern trains, with Maunsell, Bulleid and other generation rolling stock in one train. 

 

It has to be said I assume that some of the 2-sets in West Country use in the 40s and 50s were the 1930s Maunsell rebuilds, as offered  by Hornby. These look suitably olde-worlde behind a T9. 

 

Seems to me that "Rule 1" was as prevalent on the real railway then as it is with our own layouts.  What a difference from the Waterloo-Exeter route today, where it seems the only decision that has to be made now is one 159 unit or two!

[bude_branch]

11 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Yes, 16 BCKs indeed but are you sure they are all Bulleids? Many Maunsell BCKs were still in use at the time, plus I've seen a couple of photos with MK1 BCKs too. 

 

At this time all 40 of the Diagram 2406 Bulleid BCKs were allocated to the Western Section, No's 6714 - 6752 for Waterloo - West of England services, whilst 6713 (along with BSK 4282) had been used to form 2-Set (R) No 76.  As far as I am aware the only other loose BCKs allocated WoE services were No's 6595, 6643, 6646, 6648, 6655, 6662, 6672 and 6673, which were normally used for additional summer/weekend services and to provide maintenance cover.

 

Accordingly, it would seem highly likely that the majority of vehicles in use on winter weekdays would be Bulleid BCKs.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

21 hours ago, bude_branch said:

As well as banging on about the Diag 2406 BCK on here, I also send Bachmann an occasional e-mail in case they have forgotten about it.  This is the most recent reply received yesterday, which doesn't sound particularly hopeful: 

 

I’m afraid I cannot confirm any upcoming releases of an SR Diagram 2406 Brake Composite Coach.  I’ve had added it as a suggestion to our product suggestions database, which is periodically reviewed by our Research & Development team when they are considering future products.

 

In an attempt to help make the case, assuming someone from Bachmann might read this, here are the daily departures from Waterloo on the West of England Line.  Daily totals for the current Bachmann vehicles are 6 x 2-Set (R) and 4 x 3-Set (L), whereas there are a total of 16 BCKs in use, including no less than 6 on the 11.00 a.m.

 

 

BCK Workings - Waterloo.pdf 40.75 kB · 7 downloads

 

 

Interesting that the 11.00 am departure, The Atlantic Coast Express, includes a BCK for Honiton.

 

This coach and those for Sidmouth and Exmouth would follow the main train down from Salisbury as stated, but unlike the junction stations for the East Devon branches, there would have been no engine present at Honiton to deal with a detached coach, nor anywhere to put it.

 

Can anybody explain how this coach was actually treated? My interpretation is that it would have continued on with the Sidmouth and Exmouth coaches and was so listed purely to avoid passengers and luggage for Honiton being accommodated in the core formation that passed non-stop.

 

There is also no mention of Axminster, suggesting it to have been a booked stop for the main train in this timetable. Having been a schoolboy spotter there in 1961, I thought I should know this, but I would obviously have been in class when the weekday ACE came through!

 

John

 

     

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green too]

13 hours ago, Jack P said:

Possibly the Mk.1's, but the Maunsell's are missing a fairly significant portion of the diagrams available. R0/R1 stock + all the other oddities, like the nondescript coaches. 

I appreciate that you're making a (very valid) point. But this is me moaning about the lack of Maunsell stock 😆

You forgot to moan about the - very obvious - absence of a 1936 BCK in non-Pull-&-Push form ....... nor any of the other 1936 or 1935 types ! ☹️ ................. but - as this is a Bachmann thread and I model the Eastern Section in 1948 - I'll add a pre-emptive moan about the absence of B.R.C.& W. Bullied three-sets. 🙄

[RFS]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Interesting that the 11.00 am departure, The Atlantic Coast Express, includes a BCK for Honiton.

 

This coach and those for Sidmouth and Exmouth would follow the main train down from Salisbury as stated, but unlike the junction stations for the East Devon branches, there would have been no engine present at Honiton to deal with a detached coach, nor anywhere to put it.

 

Can anybody explain how this coach was actually treated? My interpretation is that it would have continued on with the Sidmouth and Exmouth coaches and was so listed purely to avoid passengers and luggage for Honiton being accommodated in the core formation that passed non-stop.

 

There is also no mention of Axminster, suggesting it to have been a booked stop for the main train in this timetable. Having been a schoolboy spotter there in 1961, I thought I should know this, but I would obviously have been in class when the weekday ACE came through!

 

John

 

     

 

I understood the Sidmouth and Exmouth portions were detached at Sidmouth Junction. In my earlier post it shows a picture of the ACE at Sidmouth having just had these coaches attached. The date quoted is 4th September 1962 which was actually a Tuesday, so a mid-week service. Despite the quoted format of the ACE, this picture shows a distinct lack of Bulleid BCKs for 1962.

 

I actually travelled on the ACE on a number of occasions in my teens. I remember a BCK was detached at Salisbury and attached to the following stopping train. Same with the up service: you could board the last coach of the preceding stopper which was then attached at Salisbury. Sat in just this coach several times as we were travelling to one of the stations beyond Salisbury.

 

I assume the Honiton coach is this coach but I thought the stopping train went all the way to Exeter Central. 

[stovepipe]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Interesting that the 11.00 am departure, The Atlantic Coast Express, includes a BCK for Honiton.

 

This coach and those for Sidmouth and Exmouth would follow the main train down from Salisbury as stated, but unlike the junction stations for the East Devon branches, there would have been no engine present at Honiton to deal with a detached coach, nor anywhere to put it.

 

Can anybody explain how this coach was actually treated? My interpretation is that it would have continued on with the Sidmouth and Exmouth coaches and was so listed purely to avoid passengers and luggage for Honiton being accommodated in the core formation that passed non-stop.

 

There is also no mention of Axminster, suggesting it to have been a booked stop for the main train in this timetable. Having been a schoolboy spotter there in 1961, I thought I should know this, but I would obviously have been in class when the weekday ACE came through!

 

John

 

     

I believe the Honiton BCK, detached at Salisbury went forward to Exeter Central in combination with an L set and a PMV, some 10-15 minutes after the ACE. From Exeter it then worked with the L-set (and an additional SK) to Torrington around 4.20pm.

[bude_branch]

On 26/10/2022 at 09:57, Dunsignalling said:

Interesting that the 11.00 am departure, The Atlantic Coast Express, includes a BCK for Honiton.

 

This coach and those for Sidmouth and Exmouth would follow the main train down from Salisbury as stated, but unlike the junction stations for the East Devon branches, there would have been no engine present at Honiton to deal with a detached coach, nor anywhere to put it.

 

John

 

     

 

As Stovepipe has said above, the Honiton BCK went forward as part of the 12.36 p.m from Salisbury to Exeter Central.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by bude_branch

[PeterStiles]

17 hours ago, County of Yorkshire said:

You could probably make a case for the Hornby Pullmans too. 

 

Well, you can't even make up Winston Churchill's funeral train from the Pullman models released by Hornby :( 

[Tim Dubya]

1 minute ago, PeterStiles said:

 

Well, you can't even make up Winston Churchill's funeral train from the Pullman models released by Hornby :( 

 

I don't think he'd mind now.

[RFS]

Here's a copy of the weekday page for the 1958 Summer timetable. It shows that the ACE includes a through carriage to Seaton. I assume this is the BCK detached at Salisbury at this time?

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, bude_branch said:

 

As Stovepipe has said above, the Honiton BCK went forward as part of the 12.36 p.m from Salisbury to Exeter Central.

 

 

My query was more about what happened to the "Honiton" BCK when it got to Honiton. I guessed it must have continued through to Exeter but it's good to have that confirmed. Also that the Sidmouth & Exmouth coaches didn't come off at Salisbury, which I had misinterpreted.

 

With nowhere to put the Honiton coach if detached there, my surmise that it was so designated purely for seat reservation purposes within the ACE seems to be borne out.

 

From the ACE timings it is clear that the main train wasn't booked an Axminster stop, and the "Honiton" BCK was intended to serve "intermediate stations to Honiton".

 

On summer Saturdays, though, it wasn't unknown for down expresses, and especially their reliefs, to make unscheduled water stops at Axminster. Locos taken off at Exeter could sometimes have a fair wait before being released to shed. This could cause some apprehension for crews of rebuilt Light Pacifics with 4500-gallon tenders that had been worked hard. Axminster was an ideal spot for a "quick splash", with a water crane right next to the 'box and a downhill getaway. Some of us lads would try to sneak aboard (not always successfully) east of the A35 road bridge to get a fast run to Exeter rather than wait for the following stopper. 

 

Many thanks

 

John

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[bude_branch]

On 23/10/2022 at 12:56, Oldddudders said:

Important point, Nigel. 15 x 2-set (R) workings per day, when there were only 13 such sets - 63-75. By contrast there were 40 Dia 2406 BCKs, all loose vehicles - i.e. never formed into sets, except in just one or two cases. 

 

I think we've both forgotten that a further 2-Set (R), No 76, was created using BSK 4282 and BCK No 6713.

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, bude_branch said:

 

I think we've both forgotten that a further 2-Set (R), No 76, was created using BSK 4282 and BCK No 6713.

True, but only in 1960, by which time some of the new shine had worn off the Bulleids. I had included it in my vague catchall of 'except in just one or two cases', being 76 and 400, the latter with two Dia 2406s. 

[Mallard60022]

21 hours ago, RFS said:

Here's a copy of the weekday page for the 1958 Summer timetable. It shows that the ACE includes a through carriage to Seaton. I assume this is the BCK detached at Salisbury at this time?

 

 

 

 

I have pics of single BCK being detached at Seaton Junction. That wasn't 1958 though, but the Diagrams were still very similar right up to 1962.

[RFS]

Summer Saturday workings were very extensive and far more interesting! Here are the morning departures for 1958.