HST retirements and secondary deployments.

[Gibbo675]

I too have heard that due to the amount of corrosion found on the cascaded trailers, Wabtec are effectively building new vestibule ends rather than cutting and shutting new door packs in.  This takes time, quite clearly. 

 

I'm unsurprised that Wabtec won't comment, as they are no doubt pressing variation orders for the unforeseen extra work to the vehicle owners (Angel Trains), moreover this is highly commercially sensitive.

 

As for the unmodified sets, they too are ex-GWR, CrossCountry doesn't have any spare vehicles.

 

Anyway, you know that barely discernible greasy film that you can just about detect when you use a MkIII exterior door handle.....

Hi Chard,

 

I once worked alongside a chap who had been involved with the testing of the prototype HST, he told it was decided to see what happened to toilet effluent at 125 mph. The experiment devised was a bucket full of white wash paint down the pan which was then flushed at 125 mph, mostly the adjacent bogie but as you note the door handles copped for it all down the length of the train.

 

Slightly off topic, in that it has nothing to do with retention tanks, on holiday in Norway in 1980 I lifted the toilet seat in a carriage to find myself looking down through stainless steel tube to see the ballast and sleepers whizzing bye.

 

Gibbo.

[Trog]

The worst spray was when someone used the loo at the back end of the rear coach, there would then be a big cloud of mist following the train, never seemed to do us any harm though. The most unpleasant aspect of it was where trains travelled slowly away from a major station. As all the people who had been obeying the do not flush the loo in a station signs, rushed to the loo on departure and left little deposits all over the track. The wooden sleepers on the down lines up Camden Bank were green due to the constant supply of water falling on them.

[Dunsignalling]

I too have heard that due to the amount of corrosion found on the cascaded trailers, Wabtec are effectively building new vestibule ends rather than cutting and shutting new door packs in.  This takes time, quite clearly. 

 

I'm unsurprised that Wabtec won't comment, as they are no doubt pressing variation orders for the unforeseen extra work to the vehicle owners (Angel Trains), moreover this is highly commercially sensitive.

 

As for the unmodified sets, they too are ex-GWR, CrossCountry doesn't have any spare vehicles.

 

Anyway, you know that barely discernible greasy film that you can just about detect when you use a MkIII exterior door handle.....

Correct, the entire ends, outboard of the passenger saloon doors, are being cut off and replaced with complete new modules incorporating the power doors and toilet compartments with waste retention facilities.

 

Any GW and ex-GW HST vehicles still in traffic with slam doors (i.e. nearly all of them), therefore don't have tanks.

 

IIRC, Cross Country HST stock had retention toilets fitted as part of an earlier refurbishment.

 

John  

Edited November 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

The worst spray was when someone used the loo at the back end of the rear coach, there would then be a big cloud of mist following the train, never seemed to do us any harm though. The most unpleasant aspect of it was where trains travelled slowly away from a major station. As all the people who had been obeying the do not flush the loo in a station signs, rushed to the loo on departure and left little deposits all over the track. The wooden sleepers on the down lines up Camden Bank were green due to the constant supply of water falling on them.

That big cloud of mist probably did your immune system a world of good ......... he sort of thing the sanitised kids of today could do with !

 

I suspect there were tomato plants growing on Camden Bank - for obvious reasons ..... I remember a healthy LOOKING crop in the 4' at Brighton umpteen years ago.

[dvdlcs]

Correct, the entire ends, outboard of the passenger saloon doors, are being cut off and replaced with complete new modules incorporating the power doors and toilet compartments with waste retention facilities.

 

Any GW and ex-GW HST vehicles still in traffic with slam doors (i.e. nearly all of them), therefore don't have tanks.

 

IIRC, Cross Country HST stock had retention toilets fitted as part of an earlier refurbishment.

 

John  

 

Wonder if there will be any detail differences between the original and new ends? Or are they identical?

[Dunsignalling]

Wonder if there will be any detail differences between the original and new ends? Or are they identical?

The new ones have different doors and toilet compartments so the windows in those quite possibly vary too.  

 

The description I was given wasn't clear on whether the original roof portion is retained and/or the gangways get re-used, though.

 

GW have had a test set in traffic, in Devon/Cornwall, since late summer and Scotrail also probably have one working by now. Shouldn't be difficult to find pics on-line.   

 

John

Edited November 16, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Pacific231G]

Hi Chard,

 

I once worked alongside a chap who had been involved with the testing of the prototype HST, he told it was decided to see what happened to toilet effluent at 125 mph. The experiment devised was a bucket full of white wash paint down the pan which was then flushed at 125 mph, mostly the adjacent bogie but as you note the door handles copped for it all down the length of the train.

 

Slightly off topic, in that it has nothing to do with retention tanks, on holiday in Norway in 1980 I lifted the toilet seat in a carriage to find myself looking down through stainless steel tube to see the ballast and sleepers whizzing bye.

 

Gibbo.

That used to be all too common on many trains in continental Europe. There was usually a flap to close the pipe off except when it was being flushed but they were often missing, hanging open or simply never fitted. It could make using the loo in the depths of winter decidedly brass monkeys.  

[luckymucklebackit]

That used to be all too common on many trains in continental Europe. There was usually a flap to close the pipe off except when it was being flushed but they were often missing, hanging open or simply never fitted. It could make using the loo in the depths of winter decidedly brass monkeys.  

 

First time I saw that was on a school holiday to Rome in 1972, a bunch of 15 year olds travelling across Europe, after the interest of the St Gotthard main line the transit between Milan and Rome became very tedious and various amusements were sought.  As we were in the back coach, dropping soft drink bottles down the hole and watching them disintegrate became one!

 

Jim

[Siberian Snooper]

All somewhat better than the Indian facility, of just a hole in the floor.

[Robert Shrives]

Xc has managed just XC03 in traffic and XC01 in works  no spares.

XC 03 15 months late and with issues over legacy work done previously with faults with Wifi and internal finishes.

 

The XC conversions done a while back did not go as far as retention tanks - the evil of cost /value and replacements in (not in the piepline) and now of course the planned ending of dump bogs has bought it to a "head."

 

The issue of slow speed dumping was adressed back in 1960s on Ffestiniog with coach 105 having a retaining toliet and latest versions have a fine tank and pump outs at 5 locations - if  private small railway can manage it on shoe string resources the big railway should hand its head in shame ! - it was the very issue of complete turd drop at low speed that vexed the civil engineering manager and the staff reps.

 

I recall the hiatus at Old Oak when powercars were found liberally covered and fitters were off ill with worms and the like. C&W said welcome to our world. ... all in the name of progress.    

[ejstubbs]

The new ones have different doors and toilet compartments so the windows in those quite possibly vary too.  

 

Shouldn't be difficult to find pics on-line.

 

There's a few on the HST retirements and secondary deployments thread eg this post and this post.

 

To be honest, I think this thread should be merged with that one since they're both covering the same ground.

[Gibbo675]

The worst spray was when someone used the loo at the back end of the rear coach, there would then be a big cloud of mist following the train, never seemed to do us any harm though. The most unpleasant aspect of it was where trains travelled slowly away from a major station. As all the people who had been obeying the do not flush the loo in a station signs, rushed to the loo on departure and left little deposits all over the track. The wooden sleepers on the down lines up Camden Bank were green due to the constant supply of water falling on them.

Hi Trog,

 

Here is another utterly charming story;

 

I once went underneath 34067 Tangemere while in platform 12 at Crewe to make sure all was well on its first proving run. During my crawling about under the engine I put my left hand into some "gunge".

 

My thought was, "I hope that's grease.".......................... it was't.

 

Fortunately we had a bucket, some soap and lots of hot water form the injector overflow pipe,

 

Like you I'm still here, although as you say unpleasant.

 

Gibbo.

[Trog]

That big cloud of mist probably did your immune system a world of good ......... he sort of thing the sanitised kids of today could do with !

 

I suspect there were tomato plants growing on Camden Bank - for obvious reasons ..... I remember a healthy LOOKING crop in the 4' at Brighton umpteen years ago.

 

I have often wondered if a medical check of my immune system would show up anything unusual in the line of immunity to a wide spectrum of 'waste' bacteria.

 

I don't remember many tomato plants on Camden bank, but growing plants tend not to like heavily used lines. I once did some work at Kew where there was a sewer that overflowed every time the tide came in on the Thames. Track buried in so many tomato plants that you could hardly see the rails, with the relay ganger digging them out of the sludge with his fingers to take home to his greenhouse.

[WolfofBadenoch]

Slightly off topic, in that it has nothing to do with retention tanks, on holiday in Norway in 1980 I lifted the toilet seat in a carriage to find myself looking down through stainless steel tube to see the ballast and sleepers whizzing bye.

 

 

 

I remember a similar experience in Egypt this millennium - still it was better than the practices i saw whilst being chauffeured about in Egypt.

 

Back to HSTs i saw a training run heading from Dundee to Perth Thursday afternoon. Another training run going south over the Tay Bridge Friday morning and a return in the afternoon which was closely following a revenue earning Edinburgh - Aberdeen HST service. It's getting a bit more exicting around here after years of 170s and 158s :-)

[Ron Ron Ron]

Some people do talk a load of old cr*p.

 

 

 

Back to the HST's...

 

Late last year and earlier this year it was reported that GB Railfreight had been considering the use of converted HST's as fast parcel trains.

That story seemed to have died a death, however this recent report appeared in RAIL Magazine a couple of weeks ago.....

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/exclusive-gb-railfreight-revisits-plans-to-operate-unwanted-high-speed-trains

 

 

 

 

.

[royaloak]

IIRC, Cross Country HST stock had retention toilets fitted as part of an earlier refurbishment.

 

John  

Unfortunately you recall incorrectly, all still dump except XC03.

Edited November 18, 2018 by royaloak

[Dunsignalling]

Unfortunately you recall incorrectly, all still dump except XC03.

I clearly saw a reference to that and wrongly assumed it was being rolled out to their whole fleet. Apologies.

 

John

[GeoffAlan]

Probably lower track access charges than ones with intermediate trailers. The Scots are reported to be 'frugal' though I believe Yorkshiremen find them profligate.

 

 

Hat, coat etc etc

As a Yorkshireman, I find those wastrels over the border to be profligate in the extreme.

[nightstar.train]

Some people do talk a load of old cr*p.

 

 

 

Back to the HST's...

 

Late last year and earlier this year it was reported that GB Railfreight had been considering the use of converted HST's as fast parcel trains.

That story seemed to have died a death, however this recent report appeared in RAIL Magazine a couple of weeks ago.....

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/exclusive-gb-railfreight-revisits-plans-to-operate-unwanted-high-speed-trains

 

 

 

 

.

 

If only all the big stations still had dedicated parcels docks, or even separate parcel stations in the big cities. If Amazon had a rail served warehouse, and maybe a few other big names, or parcel companies, they could run HSTs straight into the heart of the city, then use electric vans or bikes for the last few miles. Would be quick, and pretty environmentally friendly. Unfortunately the parcels by rail business faded before internet shopping took off. They'd compliment each other rather well I feel. 

[Mark Saunders]

If only all the big stations still had dedicated parcels docks, or even separate parcel stations in the big cities. If Amazon had a rail served warehouse, and maybe a few other big names, or parcel companies, they could run HSTs straight into the heart of the city, then use electric vans or bikes for the last few miles. Would be quick, and pretty environmentally friendly. Unfortunately the parcels by rail business faded before internet shopping took off. They'd compliment each other rather well I feel.

 

The railways were at the home delivery service years ago but it was as Catalogue Shopping with trains running for the companies. I remember the NCL van being based at Whitley Bay delivering the John Moore’s catalogues.

 

Then there were the specials from Brian Mills at Sunderland.

 

Has anything really changed just that the ordering and payment is quicker!

 

Mark Saunders

[phil-b259]

I clearly saw a reference to that and wrongly assumed it was being rolled out to their whole fleet. Apologies.

 

John

 

Given time, the other sets fitted with powered doors but no tanks will come back to have them fitted.

[Neil]

Wildly off topic, in so much as it's not about Scotland or poo, on Friday I went to a talk/slideshow about the Cambrian lines in the diesel era. Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that an HST had once travelled to Aberystwyth, in the talk we were shown a slide of an HST set journeying up the coast to Pwllheli. Not something I was aware of.

[royaloak]

I clearly saw a reference to that and wrongly assumed it was being rolled out to their whole fleet. Apologies.

 

John

You were sort of right because they were going to be fitted when they were being refurbished for use with XC back in 2008 (I think it was) but the price was too much for the accountants, who now basically run the railways. Now 10 years later it is being done.

Edited November 21, 2018 by royaloak

[Dava]

That's accountancy driven decision-making for you, it's costs a lot more to do now for a shorter remaining working life.

 

Dava

[ejstubbs]

Taking the tram past Haymarket today, I saw an HST power car and what looked like a couple of MkIII coaches in Scotrail blue, but devoid of any branding (certainly none of the "seven cities" stuff).  Might these be part of the new 'tranche' from Wabtec, or are they just un-refurbed stock with new, temporary vinyls?