Mark Saunders Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 It is not that long ago that Sheffield Corporation were still moving the stuff in trainloads! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 It is not that long ago that Sheffield Corporation were still moving the stuff in trainloads! Mark Saunders Weren't they mostly moving it out of Sheffield, to somewhere else? I remember reading an article about these trains (including special hopper wagons) in an old issue of the GCR Society journal. Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 the point that they are making is that Scotrail is currently all retention tanks, but are going back to direct effluent discharge (for a while) Jim The mark 2s on the Fife circles are not retention tank fitted. I believe- Some/all of the 156s are not retention tank fitted. Some/all of the unrefurbished 158s are not retention tank fitted. Just the RMT doing what the RMT do best, being A-holes about everything instead of getting around the table and agreeing a way forward. I appreciate our Network Rail colleagues dont want to be sprayed with excrement while out doing their jobs so Scotrail and Network Rail should agree a method of working which prevents that happening while this temporary arrangement is in place. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 And this... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46028596 Thanks, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2018 Just the RMT doing what the RMT do best, being A-holes about everything instead of getting around the table and agreeing a way forward. I appreciate our Network Rail colleagues dont want to be sprayed with excrement while out doing their jobs so Scotrail and Network Rail should agree a method of working which prevents that happening while this temporary arrangement is in place. In BR days, the RMT, née NUR, was the second tier of pain in BR's arse, behind ASLEF. The late Jimmy Knapp was regarded as a dinosaur. These days drivers are not so badly off, so RMT feels it has more to gripe about, with views to political aspirations, no doubt. Of course in C21 the track maintainers need to be protected from effluent and consequent health risks, but their working conditions are very different from the days when the ganger walked his length between trains every day! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 And this... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46028596 Thanks, Bill LNER's HSTs still dump waste on the track, as do the Fife Circle Mk2 sets. I agree it's a disgusting practice but if it comes down to having the unrefurbished sets or having to short-form other services to cover, I'd take the former option. Besides, can't measures be taken to help minimise risk to staff? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 And this... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46028596 Thanks, Bill Over here guy's http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/138907-oh-sht/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Weekend ScotRail HST diagrams from December: Saturdays: Diagram 1 1A41 0530 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B18 0904 Aberdeen-Edinburgh 1A75 1230 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B40 1600 Aberdeen-Edinburgh 1A88 1930 Edinburgh-Aberdeen Diagram 2 1A44 0554 Inverness-Aberdeen 1T12 0850 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A61 1139 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T32 1442 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A83 1741 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1B42 2107 Aberdeen-Edinburgh DIngram 3 1A45 0730 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B24 1102 Aberdeen-Edinburgh 1A78 1529 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B51 2009 Aberdeen-Edinburgh Diagram 4 1H07 0833 Edinburgh-Inverness 1B31 1255 Inverness-Edinburgh 1H17 1742 Edinburgh-Inverness Diagram 5 1B14 0453 Inverness-Edinburgh via Aberdeen 1A71 1130 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1T34 1537 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A87 1840 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1H43 2156 Aberdeen-Inverness Diagram 6 1H23 0614 Aberdeen-Inverness 1B52 0946 Inverness-Edinburgh 1H13 1336 Edinburgh-Inverness 1T62 1728 Inverness-Glasgow Queen St 5T62 2110 Glasgow Queen St-Perth ECS Diagram 7 5A53 0647 Perth-Glasgow Queen St ECS 1A53 0938 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T22 1247 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A73 1539 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T44 1837 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A95 2140 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen Diagram 8 1B07 0548 Aberdeen-Edinburgh 1A55 0928 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B32 1312 Aberdeen Edinburgh 1A79 1628 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B47 1916 Aberdeen-Edinburgh Diagram 9 1A47 0553 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T14 0942 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A63 1238 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T38 1630 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A89 1940 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen Diagram 10 1T08 0640 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A57 0939 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1B35 1357 Aberdeen-Edinburgh 1A81 1731 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1T54 2044 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St Sundays: Diagram 1 1T76 0925 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A86 1243 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T85 1629 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A93 1944 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen Diagram 2 1T77 1031 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A97 1345 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T86 1744 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A95 2144 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen Diagram 3 2A41 1034 Aberdeen-Inverurie 1T78 1103 Inverurie-Glasgow Queen St 1A88 1450 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1H37 1801 Aberdeen-Inverness Diagram 4 1A81 0937 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T82 1332 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St 1A90 1645 Glasgow Queen St-Aberdeen 1T88 1936 Aberdeen-Glasgow Queen St Diagram 5 1A52 1233 Inverness-Aberdeen 1H35 1522 Aberdeen-Inverness 1B62 1852 Inverness-Edinburgh Diagram 6 1H45 0929 Edinburgh-Inverness 1B54 1520 Inverness-Edinburgh 1A99 2100 Edinburgh-Aberdeen Diagram 7 5R95 1302 Haymarket-Glasgow Queen St ECS 1H13 1438 Glasgow Queen St-Elgin 5H13 1859 Elgin-Inverness ECS Diagram 8 1H43 1550 Glasgow Queen St-Inverness Diagram 9 1B44 1333 Inverness-Edinburgh 1A87 1705 Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1B64 2056 Aberdeen-Edinburgh Diagram 10 Spare Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 If their concern about around stations and track then the answer is a simple one that we have been doing here in the South for many a year now; Temporary Track Mats. Yes, I'll accept they don't look pretty but they do a good job of keeping the nasties in a disposable mat and keeping the track below clean enough for the DMUs to spread their oil over later on. For example, similar mats used at stations like Paddington were laid and taken back up on most of the occasions when the First Great Western HSTs have been on diversion through Basingstoke a few years ago. A Simple and temporary solution. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 The mark 2s on the Fife circles are not retention tank fitted. I believe- Some/all of the 156s are not retention tank fitted. Some/all of the unrefurbished 158s are not retention tank fitted. I had thought some 156s at least were not tanked, however I was recently informed that all ScotRail's DMUs have been retention tank fitted for a few years - so just the Mk2s aren't equipped of ScotRail's fleet at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) If their concern about around stations and track What use a track mat on a 90mph line? Track mats are only useful at very low speeds and simply prevents the effluent contaminating the ballast and causing a smell and makes it easier to clean up. Their concerns are not at stations but out on plain line at high speeds where the effluent flushed is vapourised as it hits the track and then forms a cloud which covers everything within 10 yards of the track. I pass other trains which flush onto the track at a combined speed of 250mph and you can clearly see the 'cloud' when somebody has flushed the toilet as ghe train approaches, I also see it hits the front of my train. Edited October 31, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Thanks for the info hexagon789, but I think there might be a small typo; Diagram 7 has 1A53 0938 Queen St-Aberdeen and Diagram 10 has 1A57 0939 Queen St-Aberdeen. Should 1A53 be 0838 ex Queen St ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) It's more likely to be due to the next major exam required on the individual coaches. If the First coaches are due new wheelsets or a bogie swap for example, it will be more cost effective to stand these down and carry on with the conventional lease for the others. Most/all of the 409xx series buffets are sat on good wheelsets, I think 2 are sat on freshly overhauled bogies,, none are although all the ones I have looked at are on good wheelsets, 40811 has thin tyres. All coaches have to be returned to the leasing company (all coaches are leased, even the First owned ones) in an agreed condition, they cannot be returned in a poorer condition than the agreement states otherwise Great Western will be fined, they certainly cannot be returned in a knackered* condition. * technical term. Edited October 31, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 As Royaloak has posted above, at speed when the effluent leaves the discharge pipes the slipstream atomizers it into a fine misty spray which can be clearly seen. At a recent exhibition I was talking with a signalling engineer and he mentioned this matter. Apparently the union have had the discharge analyzed and it was found to contain all manner of unpleasentries such as e-coli and hepatitis. He said they don't go trackside without a full line block! It's an unfortunate situation, but hard to see what else Scotrail can do as a temporary measure - A substantial number of their DMUs are contracted to go elsewhere, which can't be delayed as they're required to operate services elsewhere. Meanwhile, Wabtec have been unable to deliver Scotrail's newly refurbished Mk3s in time to cover for their loss of DMUs, so are left with the alternatives; use unrefurbished Mk3s until the refurbished stock does arrive or; widespread cancellation of services. I note in the article linked to, the only 'no comment' was Wabtec 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I note in the article linked to, the only 'no comment' was Wabtec Unlike their trains Wabtec don't like to air their sh*t in public Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Funny - except that it's Wabtec who are fitting the retention tanks (just not quickly enough). I'm not sure that the unrefurbished Mk3s will have been anywhere near Wabtec, AIUI they're from a different source (possibly XC?) to the ex-GWR ones that are going through Doncaster and causing the problems - mainly due to unexpectedly high levels of corrosion in difficult-to-access places from what I've heard. (Hmm, maybe GWR's HSTs weren't quite so immune to the soaking they sometimes got at Dawlish as some people liked to suggest.) There is almost always a Wabtec van parked up at Haymarket depot when I go past on the tram. The HST refurb programme does seem to be keeping them quite occupied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 It's a little ironic that the only time I've heard about Mick Cash not talking cr*p, is when he's talking about cr*p. . 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 There is no place in 2018 for turd-on-the-track toilets. But pragmatically speaking, this is a temporary setback and there is a demonstrable plan being enacted out to eliminate them. Once all the refurbished HSTs are in ScotRail service and IETs are running the LNER trains, it'll pretty much be history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 and IETs are running the LNER trains, it'll pretty much be history. Don't hold your breath on that Apart from when an HSTs going past maybe 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Funny - except that it's Wabtec who are fitting the retention tanks (just not quickly enough). I'm not sure that the unrefurbished Mk3s will have been anywhere near Wabtec, AIUI they're from a different source (possibly XC?) to the ex-GWR ones that are going through Doncaster and causing the problems - mainly due to unexpectedly high levels of corrosion in difficult-to-access places from what I've heard. (Hmm, maybe GWR's HSTs weren't quite so immune to the soaking they sometimes got at Dawlish as some people liked to suggest.) I too have heard that due to the amount of corrosion found on the cascaded trailers, Wabtec are effectively building new vestibule ends rather than cutting and shutting new door packs in. This takes time, quite clearly. I'm unsurprised that Wabtec won't comment, as they are no doubt pressing variation orders for the unforeseen extra work to the vehicle owners (Angel Trains), moreover this is highly commercially sensitive. As for the unmodified sets, they too are ex-GWR, CrossCountry doesn't have any spare vehicles. Anyway, you know that barely discernible greasy film that you can just about detect when you use a MkIII exterior door handle..... Edited November 1, 2018 by 'CHARD 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Once ... IETs are running the LNER trains, it'll pretty much be history. Last I heard was that, following the initial performance tests on the Inverness route, NR had said there was no way the IET was going anywhere near the Highland Main Line without significant improvements being achieved. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Last I heard was that, following the initial performance tests on the Inverness route, NR had said there was no way the IET was going anywhere near the Highland Main Line without significant improvements being achieved. Last I heard was that, there was no way the IET was going anywhere near the East Coast Main Line any time soon (in service that is) Original plan was; Kings X; to Leeds in December; to Newcastle in February; and to Edinburgh in May. Latest word is, we may see them this time next year Edited November 1, 2018 by Ken.W 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Thanks for the info hexagon789, but I think there might be a small typo; Diagram 7 has 1A53 0938 Queen St-Aberdeen and Diagram 10 has 1A57 0939 Queen St-Aberdeen. Should 1A53 be 0838 ex Queen St ? Indeed, a typo on my part. 1A53 in Diagram 10 is indeed the 0838 GLQ-ABD the "9" should be an "8". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Most/all of the 409xx series buffets are sat on good wheelsets, I think 2 are sat on freshly overhauled bogies,, none are although all the ones I have looked at are on good wheelsets, 40811 has thin tyres. All coaches have to be returned to the leasing company (all coaches are leased, even the First owned ones) in an agreed condition, they cannot be returned in a poorer condition than the agreement states otherwise Great Western will be fined, they certainly cannot be returned in a knackered* condition. * technical term. As an ex-leasing company and ex-Train Service Provider employee I am wholly aware of this. However, it is absolutely factual that the TOC will select its preferred sets to return earlier based on their position in the maintenance cycle. So long as the vehicle is in-ticket for level 4 maintenance there is no angle for the RoSCo. Where GWR score in-house is by electing when to retire its own vehicles - it's all wooden dollars between owner and TOC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 At a recent exhibition I was talking with a signalling engineer and he mentioned this matter. Apparently the union have had the discharge analyzed and it was found to contain all manner of unpleasentries such as e-coli and hepatitis. He said they don't go trackside without a full line block! Not that simply fitting retention tanks to everything is necessarily a cure to the problem, in the conversation I refered to above the issue also affects Mk4 stock; When rounding a curve at speed and the tanks are full they can still give off a 'spray' for anyone on the trackside, so as said, they won't go trackside without a full line block. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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