HST retirements and secondary deployments.

[Dunsignalling]

A long long time ago - when a replacement HST power car brake was being tested - I was part of the engineering team doing the tests. If you think that a 2+4 set will have lively acceleration then you can imagine what a 2+0 could do!

 

We had to argue with operations on WR to allow the tests to be done as light locos have always had a speed restriction. However, the argument that an HST power car was not a loco won the day and we were able to do the brake tests in both full service and emergency applications up to 125mph plus a bit. The tests proved conclusively that with the new brakes the power cars on their own were able to stop within the limits of the W125 curve (the applicable standard at the time) at all speeds. Soon after the brake pads on the trailer cars were changed to replace the asbestos containing smelly pads and subsequent brake tests were done with full formation sets which confirmed compliance with the standard.

 

Unless the system has changed again, I would expect that even a short 2+4 formation would meet the braking curve at all speeds up to 125mph on the grounds that every vehicle brakes its own weight. However, I would be concerned about repeated applications and brake fade. The acceleration of the 2+4 would be such that in theory it might be possible to make a rapid series of applications from 125mph leading to brake pad temperatures above the safe level. (When we did fade tests we would do three consecutive emergency applications from 125mph as quickly as possible - the braking distance for the third application had to remain within the brake curve). It seems eminently sensible to restrict the top speed of a 2+4 to prevent this happening.

 

None of the above was applicable to the HST as originally introduced. Then the braking effort of the power cars was halved at speeds over 90mph to try to prevent catastrophic damage to the brake discs. There was thus a parallel with conventional loco hauled stock where less effective loco brakes meant that compliance with the brake curve required a number of coaches to be present. Original HST's in short formations certainly had poor brake effort over 90mph with the deficiency getting worse as the number of coaches reduced. Conversely, below 90mph the brake performance improved as the formation diminished.

 

Happy days!

Thanks. Nice to see the reasoning behind the rule.

 

John

[45125]

A long long time ago - when a replacement HST power car brake was being tested - I was part of the engineering team doing the tests. If you think that a 2+4 set will have lively acceleration then you can imagine what a 2+0 could do!

 

We had to argue with operations on WR to allow the tests to be done as light locos have always had a speed restriction. However, the argument that an HST power car was not a loco won the day and we were able to do the brake tests in both full service and emergency applications up to 125mph plus a bit. The tests proved conclusively that with the new brakes the power cars on their own were able to stop within the limits of the W125 curve (the applicable standard at the time) at all speeds. Soon after the brake pads on the trailer cars were changed to replace the asbestos containing smelly pads and subsequent brake tests were done with full formation sets which confirmed compliance with the standard.

 

Unless the system has changed again, I would expect that even a short 2+4 formation would meet the braking curve at all speeds up to 125mph on the grounds that every vehicle brakes its own weight. However, I would be concerned about repeated applications and brake fade. The acceleration of the 2+4 would be such that in theory it might be possible to make a rapid series of applications from 125mph leading to brake pad temperatures above the safe level. (When we did fade tests we would do three consecutive emergency applications from 125mph as quickly as possible - the braking distance for the third application had to remain within the brake curve). It seems eminently sensible to restrict the top speed of a 2+4 to prevent this happening.

 

None of the above was applicable to the HST as originally introduced. Then the braking effort of the power cars was halved at speeds over 90mph to try to prevent catastrophic damage to the brake discs. There was thus a parallel with conventional loco hauled stock where less effective loco brakes meant that compliance with the brake curve required a number of coaches to be present. Original HST's in short formations certainly had poor brake effort over 90mph with the deficiency getting worse as the number of coaches reduced. Conversely, below 90mph the brake performance improved as the formation diminished.

 

Happy days!

 

Having been on a 2+0 several times they do stop very sharply if fitted with the current style of brake pads. When I worked for VXC we ran 2+2s with no speed restrictions until some one at Railtrack got a bit nervous and decreed that they had to have the speed restriction. No doubt the data they used was the old stuff from the original Ferrodo pads.

[lmsforever]

These new formations will prove to be popular ,comfortable seats good interior and fast acceleration  wish we we had some on our lines like the livery in Scotland.

[Rivercider]

Well I had a little away day today and managed to get a ride on the GWR Gti 2+4 HST set from Exeter to Camborne, and back to Plymouth.

 

I am a fan of the HST anyway and was generally impressed with this set.

On the down journey there was staff training taking place, and I also detected a door problem at several stops where the door close procedure had to be repeated. We seemed to lose one or two minutes at several stops. but seemed to make most time back up in running.

There are only 3 WCs in the 4 coaches, one was out of order on the 09.24 Exeter to Penzance journey.  

Here are some photos of the train, and interior.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also noticed a number of the additional new signals (yet to be commisioned) which will enable the enhanced service to run,

 

cheers

Edited April 3, 2018 by Rivercider

[Dava]

Good to see the quality of the refurb including the doors which hopefully will keep these trains in service for another decade or so. Sad that the 2+2 seat/table bays have gone to cram in more seats, another passenger amenity removed.

 

Even so I'd rather the East Midlands franchise gets refurbed Mk3s than cast-offs from somewhere else before eventually getting bi-modes.

[Rivercider]

Good to see the quality of the refurb including the doors which hopefully will keep these trains in service for another decade or so. Sad that the 2+2 seat/table bays have gone to cram in more seats, another passenger amenity removed.

 

Even so I'd rather the East Midlands franchise gets refurbed Mk3s than cast-offs from somewhere else before eventually getting bi-modes.

I did not do a full walk through the set, but there were two tables per carriage in the two coaches I travelled in (B, and D on the return).

 

I understand that some will be used between Cardiff and Taunton. I also hope in time that some get deployed on a Cardiff - Bristol - Weston - Taunton - Exeter - Paignton/Plymouth/Penzance semi-fast service like we enjoyed in the Wessex Trains era,

 

cheers

 

cheers

[Glorious NSE]

Good to see the quality of the refurb including the doors which hopefully will keep these trains in service for another decade or so. Sad that the 2+2 seat/table bays have gone to cram in more seats, another passenger amenity removed.

 

Seats look to be the same tall seats as the GWR/FGW ones already had, just refurbed/reupholstered, reducing the tables had already occurred a decade or so back...

 

(Though the 'flying-F' has been replaced by a GWR in the button on the back, nice touch...)

 

 

 

[DLT]

Was it my imagination, or did I see an HST passing through Exeter in Cross Country livery the other day?

 

If so it would be a good thing, whoever thought that replacing 8-coach sets with 4/5-car was a good idea?  As for judging whether the Voyagers are comfortable, I wouldn't know.  I've NEVER had a seat on one.

[Steadfast]

Cross country HSTs have worked to the South West for a few years now. Think they go to Laira for maintenance when down that way

 

Jo

[Rivercider]

Seats look to be the same tall seats as the GWR/FGW ones already had, just refurbed/reupholstered, reducing the tables had already occurred a decade or so back...

 

(Though the 'flying-F' has been replaced by a GWR in the button on the back, nice touch...)

 

 

 

Yes, I liked the GWR button, and found the seat pretty comfortable for the near three hour journey.

 

cheers

[45125]

Cross country HSTs have worked to the South West for a few years now. Think they go to Laira for maintenance when down that way

 

Jo

 

Only normally go to Laira on weekends. All weekday turns from the North are out and back.

[lmsforever]

Like  the interiors very smart and not blindingly white, the seat covering is also good I bet that many passengers will wait for these units instead of a 800 long may they continue to run in the west.

[royaloak]

Cross country HSTs have worked to the South West for a few years now. Think they go to Laira for maintenance when down that way

 

Jo

No maintenance on XC HST sets at Laira, one stables overnight on a Saturday but that is it, other than that is it simple out and return trips from Leeds and Edinburgh.

[newbryford]

These new formations will prove to be popular ,comfortable seats good interior and fast acceleration  wish we we had some on our lines like the livery in Scotland.

 

That would never be allowed in the Home Counties- imagine the furore if it got out amongst the commuters that they were getting old (albeit refurbished) trains - never mind ones that are 40 years old.......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[sem34090]

Awww...

 

The Slam-Doors have gone.

 

Now travelling Westwards will be as boring as travelling anywhere else!

 

Sigh...

[Oakydoke]

Once the Class 800/801/802 fleets currently ordered, are all delivered and in service, will there be any remaining, or redeployed HST services running at 125 mph?

Any over 100 mph?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I imagine a few still on the ECML.

 

Think some of the MML is 125mph too.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Peter Kazmierczak

[rodent279]

Well I had a little away day today and managed to get a ride on the GWR Gti 2+4 HST set from Exeter to Camborne, and back to Plymouth.

 

I am a fan of the HST anyway and was generally impressed with this set.

On the down journey there was staff training taking place, and I also detected a door problem at several stops where the door close procedure had to be repeated. We seemed to lose one or two minutes at several stops. but seemed to make most time back up in running.

There are only 3 WCs in the 4 coaches, one was out of order on the 09.24 Exeter to Penzance journey.

Here are some photos of the train, and interior.

 

IMG_9575 a.jpg

 

IMG_9577 a.jpg

 

IMG_9579 a.jpg

 

IMG_9580 a.jpg

 

IMG_9581 a.jpg

 

IMG_9582 a.jpg

 

IMG_9583 a.jpg

 

I also noticed a number of the additional new signals (yet to be commisioned) which will enable the enhanced service to run,

 

cheers

I think that has been done extremely well. It's only what they should have been built with in the first place!

Incidentally-can anyone tell me why HST's were not built with power operated doors? There must be a reason, as power operated doors have been with us for years before HST's.

[Titan]

I think that has been done extremely well. It's only what they should have been built with in the first place!

Incidentally-can anyone tell me why HST's were not built with power operated doors? There must be a reason, as power operated doors have been with us for years before HST's.

Cost. BR struggled to afford all the HST's it needed as it was, let alone ones with power doors.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Incidentally-can anyone tell me why HST's were not built with power operated doors? There must be a reason, as power operated doors have been with us for years before HST's.

 

 

Cost. BR struggled to afford all the HST's it needed as it was, let alone ones with power doors.

 

 

A more important question might be why, even in the 1970's, BR and the train designers thought it still acceptable to flush the train's toilets out onto the track?

It's a practice reminiscent of the Dickensian era and should have at least been stamped out in the post WW2 era, if not earlier.

 

 

.

[Dunsignalling]

I think that has been done extremely well. It's only what they should have been built with in the first place!

Incidentally-can anyone tell me why HST's were not built with power operated doors? There must be a reason, as power operated doors have been with us for years before HST's.

Pretty rare in this country except on the Underground (and around Glasgow) at that time, though the more-or-less contemporaneous 150, 455 etc. units did have them.

 

Presumably it was anticipated that HSTs would mainly be stopping at more important, well-staffed stations so they were dispensable on cost grounds. Times change.

 

John  

Edited April 5, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Titan]

A more important question might be why, even in the 1970's, BR and the train designers thought it still acceptable to flush the train's toilets out onto the track?

It's a practice reminiscent of the Dickensian era and should have at least been stamped out in the post WW2 era, if not earlier.

 

 

.

 

Again cost. Not only would the retention tanks have added cost to the trains, there would also be the provision of depot facilities, extra maintenance etc. etc. 

[Titan]

Pretty rare in this country except on the Underground (and around Glasgow) at that time, though the more-or-less contemporaneous 150, 455 etc. units did have them.

 

Presumably it was anticipated that HSTs would mainly be stopping at more important, well-staffed stations so they were dispensable on cost grounds. Times change.

 

John  

 

There was more than you think - Great Easterns fleet of 306's as well as the Hadfield units. However as far as I am aware it would all have been  suburban stock, rather than anything mainline.

 

You also have to remember that the Mk3 was BR's new standard coach, and the design was not exclusive to the HST. All loco hauled stock would have had to have slam doors, otherwise it would not be compatible with the Mk1's and Mk2's it had to work with - unless they had been fitted with CDL early!

[Glorious NSE]

No maintenance on XC HST sets at Laira, one stables overnight on a Saturday but that is it, other than that is it simple out and return trips from Leeds and Edinburgh.

Sure I read somewhere that's due to change, with the XC sets due to be re-allocated to LA as NL and EC will lose their HSTs when the new trains arrive on the East Coast whereas LA will still be working with HSTs due to the GWR short sets?

 

Once the Class 800/801/802 fleets currently ordered, are all delivered and in service, will there be any remaining, or redeployed HST services running at 125 mph?

Any over 100 mph?

 

Cross Country are due to do the same door/toilet upgrades and retain their 5x sets, at least to the end of that franchise (Dec 2019) and presumably they will run for at least a year or so after that at the absolute minimum, depending on the choices of the new franchise holder. Theirs will still be 125mph sets.

 

The MML sets might or might not still be running....it depends what ultimate solution is decided on regarding getting their sets upgraded to, or replaced by PRM-TSI compliant stock by the end of Dec 2019. (My gut is they will get exempted to run into 2020, giving time for them to be either upgraded or replaced...)

 

The ECML sets and full length GWR sets are due to all be replaced, unless things change (not impossible!)...

 

And the other wildcard - that does leave a fairly large potential pool of 125mph capable power cars and coaches which *could* be used by a future operator/for future services if they were upgraded to PRM-TSI though.

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Again cost. Not only would the retention tanks have added cost to the trains, there would also be the provision of depot facilities, extra maintenance etc. etc. 

 

 

To return to my question, why was that considered acceptable, regardless of cost?

If new public toilets had been built at that time, with the effluent discharging into the street, how would that have been received?

The first (road) coaches with toilets on board appeared around that time too. What if they had discharged their waste out onto the road?

It wouldn't have been allowed.

 

.