RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[johnarcher]

But coming back to kits , I do think its the metalwork involved in getting a chassis to run well that puts people off . Something that either has all component parts that can fit together easily or are already assembled, with plastic Airfix/Revell/ Tamiya style body kits might reinvigorate the market. Sorry but just as Nintendos and X boxes have killed the trainset market , lack of skill sets and time has killed the old kit market. The world has moved on from the days of Ks, Wills, Gem, Nu-Cast etc

 

 

 

 

I have my doubts about this 'skill sets' point.

In an earlier post you referred to Mr Spencer as an 'accomplished' builder, and no doubt he is, but then accomplished builders are people who at one time had no skill-sets either, but developed the necessary skills in the usual way - with practice.

In the days you refer to everyone then started without the skills too. (Also I query the assertion often made that these things are not taught in schools any more - I was in school in the late '50's and 60's and learned nothing of any use for model-making, while I taught children to use various tools in CDT classes 10 years ago or so).

Maybe people now don't want to learn the skills,fine - that's a personal choice, but to suggest that people who don't have certain skills at the moment are therefore totally different from those who have, and are for ever debarred from kit- or scratch-building is a bit defeatist.

 

That is not to criticise your ideas - maybe things as simple to put together as you suggest would be a way into making proper kits for the less confident, rather as the old whitemetal bodies on RTR chassis used to be.

Edited March 15, 2018 by johnarcher

[OnTheBranchline]

It's the same argument as making pasta from scratch and spending the time to make it by hand or going out to Tesco and picking up a carton of it. 

[hayfield]

Its quicker to make pasta that drive to Tescos, a to solder together though  

[Jeff Smith]

The whole chassis aspect is what really puts the price up. RTR manufacturers use cheap wheels and motors bought by the thousands at knock down prices that individuals cannot possibly match. The chassis are usually lumps of machined metal with slots for the axles and enough slop to keep most of the wheels on the track. This, together with the relatively large OO flanges works for the majority of the time for OO. I realize the OP still wishes to work in OO and honestly think that an existing commercially available chassis would be hard to match, certainly in price and probably performance too.

Following on from this, because I had to go out, my recommendation would be to press on with designing and printing the body but to go on a commercial chassis sourced from the s/h market. I would only dabble with chassis design if you really cannot live with any that are currently available.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Jeff Smith

[JSpencer]

JSpencer above is clearly an accomplished builder and his comments above show the wealth of experience he has building kits to talk about 3ft curves 22 inches, opening up bearings etc. "What is also hard is assembling the thing so that there are no tight spots and that all wheels touch the rails " This is exactly what puts me off building kits . I just don't have these skill sets . e.

Thanks for the kind comments. I am not sure I would call myself an accomplished builder but this was the opinion I formed after building a mere 3 kits 20 years ago which worked well for 4 others built since.

 

My first kit was a K's Adams radial. This was soldered based on advice at the time, The result was dreadful in every way possible as can be seen here (don,t laugh):

 

 

 

The second a massive Ks P2, took a good month to do (I was young and single back then), I went through about 5 different motors and 2 different wheel sets before setting on something that finally worked ok but underpowered. The paint job and lining were major break throughs though and done using paint cans and water slide transfers. Note I cannot make this big loco sit on 24 inch radius track!

 

 

The third kit I built was the South Eastern Finecast Q1. This was and still is a very successful model. It has the power of a Bachmann Nelson. Note the smoke generator. It took just over 2 weeks to build. I abandoned solder white metal with this model for super glue.

 

 

The main thing is patience and taking time to think things through.

 

A cheaper easier alternative is modifying or converting or using RTR parts - buying up tatty bits as you come across them.

Here is a (Triang) Hornby Sir Dinadan (N15) converted to an S15 with new motor and wheels and bearings and a Bachmann Nelson tender, cut down to its former shape. A bit crude but allows you to experiment.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by JSpencer

[hayfield]

Good to see your journey in making models of locos which work. Looking at what you built its good to see your modelling progress, though I am somewhat surprised you went from soldering bodies to glueing them. Having said this I had a couple of aborted soldering attempts which were simply down to firstly using the wrong equipment and secondly and more importantly being shown the correct process.

 

I would still advise cutting your teeth on simple 0-6-0 models first then progressing to things more complicated. As for building that complicated valve gear on your second model, impressed is an under statement. Finally good to see a great piece of modelling in kit bashing

[JSpencer]

Good to see your journey in making models of locos which work. Looking at what you built its good to see your modelling progress, though I am somewhat surprised you went from soldering bodies to glueing them. Having said this I had a couple of aborted soldering attempts which were simply down to firstly using the wrong equipment and secondly and more importantly being shown the correct process.

 

I would still advise cutting your teeth on simple 0-6-0 models first then progressing to things more complicated. As for building that complicated valve gear on your second model, impressed is an under statement. Finally good to see a great piece of modelling in kit bashing

 

Thanks for the kind words. I was 23 years old back then and had great eyesight which helped a lot! Today I have far far better skills but my eyes are no longer as good. The biggest bug bear was meeting my wife shortly after so my O1 in the kitbuilding forum - which would normally take a week or so - has taken over a year.

 

Cleanliness is the art to perfect solder joint. For white metal you need a temperature controlled ion which is big and powerful enough to so that heat gets into all the part (not normally cheap either). Lesser power is fine for soldering, you gradually creep along the seem, however if it moves and is out of joint, the whole part needs to be heated to melt to solder to pull them apart. Too hot, the white metal disappears in a flash, not enough heat means it is stuck fast. With super glue, I just snap the parts apart and start again.

 

For the nickel chassis itself though, I found solder is vastly superior over super glue and there is no risk of overheating it (cleanliness is still key).

 

I remember the valve being an enjoyable challenge! Patience was key, going slowly checking each little part. Never fix a deadline building these things.

 

I was lucky in having a couple of cheap K's kits to start on. And I agree that an 0-6-0 (lots of prototypes to choose from) is a good starting point. Or maybe a resin kit using an RTR chassis, but before buying, people should check what modifications and additional bits are required first. Some resin kits require few modifications to the chassis. Others are more demanding.

 

My advice is also, never be afraid about making mistakes. You will make mistakes, and when you make them, you will find you can always put them right. I made loads when building and painting the P2 but in the end it was a big experiment which allowed me to figure out what works and what does not. 

 

(I also recommend anyone building a loco kit is to do the tender first!)

[dibber25]

Thanks for the kind words. I was 23 years old back then and had great eyesight which helped a lot! Today I have far far better skills but my eyes are no longer as good. The biggest bug bear was meeting my wife shortly after so my O1 in the kitbuilding forum - which would normally take a week or so - has taken over a year.

 

Cleanliness is the art to perfect solder joint. For white metal you need a temperature controlled ion which is big and powerful enough to so that heat gets into all the part (not normally cheap either). Lesser power is fine for soldering, you gradually creep along the seem, however if it moves and is out of joint, the whole part needs to be heated to melt to solder to pull them apart. Too hot, the white metal disappears in a flash, not enough heat means it is stuck fast. With super glue, I just snap the parts apart and start again.

 

For the nickel chassis itself though, I found solder is vastly superior over super glue and there is no risk of overheating it (cleanliness is still key).

 

I remember the valve being an enjoyable challenge! Patience was key, going slowly checking each little part. Never fix a deadline building these things.

 

I was lucky in having a couple of cheap K's kits to start on. And I agree that an 0-6-0 (lots of prototypes to choose from) is a good starting point. Or maybe a resin kit using an RTR chassis, but before buying, people should check what modifications and additional bits are required first. Some resin kits require few modifications to the chassis. Others are more demanding.

 

My advice is also, never be afraid about making mistakes. You will make mistakes, and when you make them, you will find you can always put them right. I made loads when building and painting the P2 but in the end it was a big experiment which allowed me to figure out what works and what does not. 

 

(I also recommend anyone building a loco kit is to do the tender first!)

 

I started in white metal kits by building the K's auto coach, on the basis that it would teach me how to work with white metal and the only bits that had to move were the bogies and wheels. Even so, it was a challenge as the roof (in two halves) was about 5mm too short for the body. I still have the thing - complete with bodged filler across the middle of the roof, which has been replaced at least once in the meantime. Today's kits may be fewer in number but it's generally the better kits that have survived, so offering newcomers at least a chance of making something that works as intended. (CJL)

[Legend]

Thanks for the kind words. I was 23 years old back then and had great eyesight which helped a lot! Today I have far far better skills but my eyes are no longer as good. The biggest bug bear was meeting my wife shortly after so my O1 in the kitbuilding forum - which would normally take a week or so - has taken over a year.

 

Cleanliness is the art to perfect solder joint. For white metal you need a temperature controlled ion which is big and powerful enough to so that heat gets into all the part (not normally cheap either). Lesser power is fine for soldering, you gradually creep along the seem, however if it moves and is out of joint, the whole part needs to be heated to melt to solder to pull them apart. Too hot, the white metal disappears in a flash, not enough heat means it is stuck fast. With super glue, I just snap the parts apart and start again.

 

For the nickel chassis itself though, I found solder is vastly superior over super glue and there is no risk of overheating it (cleanliness is still key).

 

I remember the valve being an enjoyable challenge! Patience was key, going slowly checking each little part. Never fix a deadline building these things.

 

I was lucky in having a couple of cheap K's kits to start on. And I agree that an 0-6-0 (lots of prototypes to choose from) is a good starting point. Or maybe a resin kit using an RTR chassis, but before buying, people should check what modifications and additional bits are required first. Some resin kits require few modifications to the chassis. Others are more demanding.

 

My advice is also, never be afraid about making mistakes. You will make mistakes, and when you make them, you will find you can always put them right. I made loads when building and painting the P2 but in the end it was a big experiment which allowed me to figure out what works and what does not. 

 

(I also recommend anyone building a loco kit is to do the tender first!)

I think you've just proven my point with these pictures! Most definitely an accomplished builder! That P2 looks magnificent.

 

But I think you also prove my point by saying the P2 had 2 different wheelsets and 5 motors before you got it right . Also in CJLs subsequent posting he talks of Ks autocoach with roof 5mm too short. The point being you need to be accomplished builders to get these kits right . They don't just go together like most construction kits do, where maybe all you need to do is a bit of filing and filling. I really don't think folks have the skill sets , but possibly more importantly , maybe because of the plethora of RTR, they don't have the inclination to learn them either . We may lament it , but todays society is I want it and I want it now , they are much more comfortable on a computer then wielding a soldering iron. So making one of these kits would be very daunting to most . As a next step from RTR surely there is a role for an Easy Build kit with a chassis that works

Edited March 16, 2018 by Legend

[hayfield]

 

Cleanliness is the art to perfect solder joint. For white metal you need a temperature controlled ion which is big and powerful enough to so that heat gets into all the part (not normally cheap either). Lesser power is fine for soldering, you gradually creep along the seem, however if it moves and is out of joint, the whole part needs to be heated to melt to solder to pull them apart. Too hot, the white metal disappears in a flash, not enough heat means it is stuck fast. With super glue, I just snap the parts apart and start again.

 

For the nickel chassis itself though, I found solder is vastly superior over super glue and there is no risk of overheating it (cleanliness is still key).

 

I remember the valve being an enjoyable challenge! Patience was key, going slowly checking each little part. Never fix a deadline building these things.

 

I was lucky in having a couple of cheap K's kits to start on. And I agree that an 0-6-0 (lots of prototypes to choose from) is a good starting point. Or maybe a resin kit using an RTR chassis, but before buying, people should check what modifications and additional bits are required first. Some resin kits require few modifications to the chassis. Others are more demanding.

 

My advice is also, never be afraid about making mistakes. You will make mistakes, and when you make them, you will find you can always put them right. I made loads when building and painting the P2 but in the end it was a big experiment which allowed me to figure out what works and what does not. 

 

(I also recommend anyone building a loco kit is to do the tender first!)

 

With cleanliness and soldering how right you are, my first attempt with low melt soldering was with a 12 volt soldering iron, totally useless. I use Antex 25 watt irons one with a medium ptp the other with a large tip. The method I was taught works every time,

 

1 Brush Carrs red (oe similar) liquid flux into the joint

2 put a piece of solder into the joint. NOT on the tip of the iron, as it burns off the chemicals that allow the solder to flow before getting to the joint

3 In and out as quick as you can with a very hot iron

4 Use 70 degree solder, as the joint can be broken by putting into steam

 

I am considering which temperature controlled Iron to get, but for larger jobs not whitemetal especially

 

Keyser (K's) kits are a great learning point, can be bought cheaply on eBay especially if made. Deconstruction can be as instructive as construction. Many have new Romford wheels added which saves £'s, I also recommend the use of High Level gearboxes and modern can motors, which transform the running. Older Wills and Wills Finecast kits are also a good source of inexpensive kits to learn on, early ones have RTR chassis in the main, Southeastern Finecast will sell spares and provide new etched chassis. Once you have mastered whitemetal kits then try etched ones, but be wary of the older etched kits, some of which are extremely hard to build. London Road models is a good place to start, John and Jol are always available for advice, I am certain if you tell them your experience level suitable advice will be forthcoming

 

Or Have a go at kit bashing, find a suitable donor loco(s) and have a go. Or just add additional detail to an existing model. The Hornby SR R1 comes to mind, hand rail knobs, some wire and castings will transform it. Then put a Southeastern Finecast replacement chassis under it and detail the cab interior as phase 2

 

All in all building kits does not have to be expensive

[PenrithBeacon]

Following on from this, because I had to go out, my recommendation would be to press on with designing and printing the body but to go on a commercial chassis sourced from the s/h market. I would only dabble with chassis design if you really cannot live with any that are currently available.

There is no reason why the chassis cannot be printed as well.

[JSpencer]

But I think you also prove my point by saying the P2 had 2 different wheelsets and 5 motors before you got it right .

 

The P2 is a big loco with a small motor space by the firebox. The first motor was the tiny pathetic thing K's supplied with the kit. The next were generally too big to fit or the gearbox was too big to fit (I tried a DS10 and DJH box). Finally a DS10 on a Branchlines 1 stage gearbox was used.

The first wheel set was K's supplied one. Not sure of the make, but there were steel tyred (which rusted!) and plastic inserts. You can see why people replaced them with Romfords/Markits.

 

It was a learning experience, but since then, we have got it right first time for wheels and motors:

Q1

Q

W1 (SE finecast - lovely kit)

Turbomotive (Ks revamped)

2-EPB

(the S15 from an N15 also uses a new motor and gearbox and not the original Hornby X.03)

 

In Progress:

O1 - resin body on Hornby J15 chassis

 

On my list to do:

GT3 - RTR chassis with Resin body

Fell loco - to be 2 RTR 08 chassis cut and glued with Resin body

SECR J class

Crownline Original Merchant Navy - brought 20 years ago!

 

Having a few motors around helps to gauge what motor will be needed for the next project, just as having a few spare speakers helps select the right one for a DCC sound conversion.

[JSpencer]

4 Use 70 degree solder, as the joint can be broken by putting into steam

 

I am considering which temperature controlled Iron to get, but for larger jobs not whitemetal especially

 

 

Had not thought about steaming them apart. Thanks for that.

[Tarnish1]

My hopes are that Hornby will eventually issue a "decent" P2 - not "design clever" with the Bugatti front. Otherwise I'll have to kit build. Fingers crossed!

[chris p bacon]

There is no reason why the chassis cannot be printed as well.

 

 

I have some basic 3D printed chassis in WSF, they are accurate enough as the wheels are set up on a jig. The issue is fixing bearings in them, WSF does not take cyano but will take epoxy (just about)  As much detail as possible should be printed with fixing being such a pain.

FUD as a chassis might be too fragile and I haven't experience of it as one.

[alfsboy]

This seems a bit like car owners .Most buy a car and let a mechanic service and repair it .A few ,possibly a noble few ,a brave few,  a monetary challenged few ., do their  own .

[JSpencer]

This seems a bit like car owners .Most buy a car and let a mechanic service and repair it .A few ,possibly a noble few ,a brave few,  a monetary challenged few ., do their  own .

 

Fortunately a model is lot less complex than a car. I will admit that if I have time and car has plenty of hand space (like a land rover), I'll fix it myself. But modern day ones that are packed in tightly and full of lots of electronics - not likely.

[Jeff Smith]

Following on from this, because I had to go out, my recommendation would be to press on with designing and printing the body but to go on a commercial chassis sourced from the s/h market. I would only dabble with chassis design if you really cannot live with any that are currently available.

  

There is no reason why the chassis cannot be printed as well.

Yes, I believe you probably can 3D print the chassis, either integrally with the body or as a separate item. My comment was really made as advice to the OP as he has admitted to limited knowledge of chassis design but seems very keen to print the body. Tackling the chassis as well might be too much initially.

[hayfield]

There is no reason why the chassis cannot be printed as well.

 

David

 

I think at some point this might be the case, however firstly the designer needs to understand the basics in chassis design/workins. Even if the holes can be formed accurately and inline, provision for some form of bearing to be used to prevent wear during use

 

Secondly especially if the finer scales are to be used a system which allows the wheels to be held accurately both rigid and floating must be designed

 

I also think thought must be given to a form of motor mount/gearbox. Once these issues have been addressed I guess it is feasible. Until then we are restricted to existing systems

[sem34090]

I have now got a 3D printed chassis of my own design which I will evaluate and attempt to make functioning. I also have another of my design which is to be passed onto a friend of mine to build in order that he can provide valuable feedback.

[adb968008]

. The biggest bug bear was meeting my wife shortly after so my O1 in the kitbuilding forum - which would normally take a week or so - has taken over a year

)

I can relate to that, my MAV BR 52, has outlasted the ex-Hungarian girlfriend that showed me the real thing by some 18 years, indeed at current pace it could be a project that gets completed by my offspring, or even theirs.

[johnarcher]

 

 

I think you've just proven my point with these pictures! Most definitely an accomplished builder! That P2 looks magnificent.

 

But I think you also prove my point by saying the P2 had 2 different wheelsets and 5 motors before you got it right . Also in CJLs subsequent posting he talks of Ks autocoach with roof 5mm too short. The point being you need to be accomplished builders to get these kits right . They don't just go together like most construction kits do, where maybe all you need to do is a bit of filing and filling. I really don't think folks have the skill sets , but possibly more importantly , maybe because of the plethora of RTR, they don't have the inclination to learn them either . We may lament it , but todays society is I want it and I want it now , they are much more comfortable on a computer then wielding a soldering iron. So making one of these kits would be very daunting to most . As a next step from RTR surely there is a role for an Easy Build kit with a chassis that works

It depends of course which kits 'these kits' are. It would be useful to look at contributions from those who have built a lot of kits suggesting which ones go together well, without problems like these - which (given a wagon kit or two done first) would be much less daunting for the first-timer, and more likely to lead to encouraging success.

"you need to be accomplished builders to get these kits right" -But surely he wasn't an accomplished builder then, so it can be done even with less than excellent kits, by someone who isn't - as he said it was a learning experience, part of the road to becoming an accomplished builder.

I've only made half a dozen loco kits (so wouldn't claim to be an AB), but the process was similar, my first chassis only limped, then a cast pannier never made it at all, finally, after using a second chassis fret, a complete etched kit (branchline T&D Hunslet) got finished and working (reasonably).

I think your last point is right, it's not just that people don't have the skills (everyone always started without them), but that many don't have the inclination to learn them (as everyone always had to).

But I wholly agree with the last sentence, a simple kit, where everything fits, maybe on a RTR chassis (or a simple kit one) would be a much more encouraging first step.

Edited March 16, 2018 by johnarcher

[sem34090]

Right, please bear in mind that phone-quality pictures are always dodgy and tend to make models look worse than they are, but here are some photos of the G6 print, in 4mm, sans chassis.

The cab roof is very ridged, but I think this may be a design issue on my part.

 

Also, please note that this is my first 'proper' loco model, as in one that I have not done as a private commission and is for my own use. All being well it should be on sale by the end of today.

Edited March 16, 2018 by sem34090

[sem34090]

This one fits a Bachmann Jinty chassis, though I will see if a Hornby, or even Triang, one fits.

[hayfield]

It depends of course which kits 'these kits' are. It would be useful to look at contributions from those who have built a lot of kits suggesting which ones go together well, without problems like these - which (given a wagon kit or two done first) would be much less daunting for the first-timer, and more likely to lead to encouraging success.

"you need to be accomplished builders to get these kits right" -But surely he wasn't an accomplished builder then, so it can be done even with less than excellent kits, by someone who isn't - as he said it was a learning experience, part of the road to becoming an accomplished builder.

I've only made half a dozen loco kits (so wouldn't claim to be an AB), but the process was similar, my first chassis only limped, then a cast pannier never made it at all, finally, after using a second chassis fret, a complete etched kit (branchline T&D Hunslet) got finished and working (reasonably).

I think your last point is right, it's not just that people don't have the skills (everyone always started without them), but that many don't have the inclination to learn them (as everyone always had to).

But I wholly agree with the last sentence, a simple kit, where everything fits, maybe on a RTR chassis (or a simple kit one) would be a much more encouraging first step.

 

 

Firstly lets seperate those accomplished builders who see something is wrong, or from an earlier or later version and start making parts. Also take away those locos with complicated  motion and valve gear.

 

There should be minimal trouble building a small whitemetal tank kit, especially one designed to fit a RTR chassis.

 

The thing about wheels, Keyser plastic centered wheels and their HM2 motors were a disaster, also for the novice Gibson wheels are a bit difficult to quarter. Beginners should use Markit/Romford self quartering wheels.

 

Buying a s/h kit built loco, or a s/h unbuilt kit, as I have said is a cheap introduction to Loco building. Its far easier than some make out.fear