Rails of Sheffield/Dapol/NRM Announce OO gauge Stroudley A1/A1X

[NHY 581]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 12:39, NHY 581 said:

I have to say, I am now considering off loading my two Hornby terriers........

 

Rob 

 

For the information of anyone considering this,  I decided to explore the much advertised scheme run by Rails to sell items back to them. Email sent enquiring the part exchange of two 6 month old Hornby Terriers test run only. 

 

Rails have offered £30 each. Needless to say I will not be carrying out said transaction. 

 

Rob.  

 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by NHY 581

[meatloaf]

4 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

For the information of anyone considering this,  I decided to explore the much advertised scheme run by Rails to sell items back to them. Email sent enquiring the part exchange of two 6 month old Hornby Terriers test run only. 

 

Rails have offered £30 each. Needless to say I will not be carrying out said transaction. 

 

Rob.  

 

 

 

Sounds reasonable given that they will have to test them and give a warranty on them when resold.

[NHY 581]

Just now, meatloaf said:

 

Sounds reasonable given that they will have to test them and give a warranty on them when resold.

 

 

Probably does and I get that Rails are not a charity but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking I might want to 'upgrade'. Not encouraged by this and quite frankly it's not financially viable. 

 

Given your response, Meaty, I  take it you would be perfectly happy with that offer and would take their hand off given identical circumstances ? 

 

 

Rob 

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

 

Sounds reasonable given that they will have to test them and give a warranty on them when resold.

But if the present owner feels they are worth more than £30 to him, that being rather less than half the new price he paid, then Rails won't get the chance. And thus Rails won't sell another of their own models to him. They know their business model - but in this case the customer has the last word. No. 

[NHY 581]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But if the present owner feels they are worth more than £30 to him, that being rather less than half the new price he paid, then Rails won't get the chance. And thus Rails won't sell another of their own models to him. They know their business model - but in this case the customer has the last word. No. 

 

 

Spot on. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Sympathies for the unwelcome px. I think we have to remember Hornby’s somewhat aggressive marketing on “their” Terrier way back at the turn of the year which resulted in shedloads of their newly upgraded model landing on the market with the unspoken warning to Rails to keep of the hallowed turf.and to sink the project before it got going...remember the televised exchange between Simon K and John Barber ?  The same phenomenon arose between Hattons and Hornby over the class 66.

 

Maybe the consequences of this are being felt now..some ten months down the line ? Maybe this has deflated the second hand value of Hornby’s model,the more so now especially that the Rails example is coming to the market 
More expensive yes....but a better model and well worth the wait.

 

It will be interesting to watch how eBay prices react to this in a couple of weeks.That maybe will give a better indication of the true after market value of a Hornby Terrier. 
 

Put them on eBay and see what you get.

[Oldddudders]

42 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 Put them on eBay and see what you get.

Ebay prices are insane. Currently two LE Dapol Terriers on there going for more than twice what Rob was offered for his much better Hornby version. Whether those prices are achieved I know not. 

[PaulRhB]

I’m sure you could get up to double that on eBay but it requires the effort to list. Dealers are never going to be the most lucrative way to dispose of secondhand stuff due to their overheads. It’s an easy way to clear a large collection with minimum fuss, but not worth it on single or just a few items. 

Rails are looking to plant seeds just like all these ‘when you’re gone plans’ on tv  

[meatloaf]

5 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

Probably does and I get that Rails are not a charity but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking I might want to 'upgrade'. Not encouraged by this and quite frankly it's not financially viable. 

 

Given your response, Meaty, I  take it you would be perfectly happy with that offer and would take their hand off given identical circumstances ? 

 

 

Rob 

To be honest id have probably tried to shift them on a facebook group first but if I had no luck then yeah I probably would've just took them along and got what I could knocked off the new purchase. Ive done it a few times in the past.

 

But I do wonder if rails couldn't offer a deal to entice Hornby terrier owners to trade up to there fillet steak version.

[Andy Hayter]

But that would leave them with a stack of what they have clearly stated as an inferior model.  

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, meatloaf said:

But I do wonder if rails couldn't offer a deal to entice Hornby terrier owners to trade up to there fillet steak version.

Hornby having already eaten into their margin and they aren’t going to pay you much to swap them! 

[The Stationmaster]

Dealers have always been remarkably tight-fisted (from our viewpoint) when buying-in secondhand stuff.  as Hattosn reputedly offer the best buying-in prices it would perhaps be interesting to ask them what they will offer.

 

But as always there are two sides to the story and don't forget that a trader buying in stock for resale is basically investing his money and it night be subject to interest charges and he might not get it back at all quickly so he'll n be loking at a pile of £ notes sitting on his shelves.  I found out a long time back that it is remarkably easy to outbid dealers on some stuff at auctions because they generally work to a business plan and all you need is to go one bid above that and the lot is yours  - but just try it on lots on complete but unbuilt loco kits as you might get a very rude awakening.

[Roy Langridge]

It must also be remembered that Rails are VAT registered and that will also apply to their second hand sales, albeit using the VAT-margin scheme. No VAT is reclaimable on purchasing second hand items.

Roy

[GreenGiraffe22]

On 22/10/2019 at 19:25, Oldddudders said:

Ebay prices are insane. Currently two LE Dapol Terriers on there going for more than twice what Rob was offered for his much better Hornby version. Whether those prices are achieved I know not. 

 

I just sold a limited edition Dapol Terrier on ebay for £32, we shan't discuss how much I paid for it... 

[adb968008]

 

The big difference between 2018 and 2019 is retail margin...

 

retailers are restricted on discounting, the days of 30% off rrp are gone, the extra margin is  going to the retailer. The Terrier and 66 buyers are first to feel the “new car depreciation” that comes with the retail price restrictions on new releases.

 

A quick look on ebay, shows s/h new tooled Terriers averaging £45-60, which reflects an RRP for £89, which if you factor in retail margin, with discount to shows them selling at roughly trade price of a new one. 

 

In the past we consumers were happy to buy at 30% off rrp from box shifters, and once they sold out, a few months later stick it back online to get roughly back what you paid for it as it competed with higher priced retailers who still held stock.

 

So as a seller on ebay you have 12.5% fees, plus paypals 3.5% off that c£50 after the buyers “made an offer”, meaning the seller is only getting £42.50.. which means really they are only making £12.50, or 30% out of you.

 

£30 offered is therefore in my opinion reasonable, afterall why would a dealer pay you more than they buy a new one from Hornby ? And why would they accept a lower margin than they can for the same capital outlay to buy from Hornby ?

 

The way to minimise your loss is selling it yourself, you’d end up about 30% better off, but be honest in your listing, as buyers can press “return this item”, which ebay forces you to pay both outward and return postage, and is impossible to prevent buyer abuse, regardless how you word your listing.

Alternatively, keep it for 30 years snd let inflation do its thing  (my collection of Dapol terriers cost approx £25-30 back in the 1990’s so i’m not too far out of pocket), or sell them privately.. RMWeb Gold may pay off here.

Edited October 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎22‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 23:02, meatloaf said:

To be honest id have probably tried to shift them on a facebook group first but if I had no luck then yeah I probably would've just took them along and got what I could knocked off the new purchase. Ive done it a few times in the past.

 

But I do wonder if rails couldn't offer a deal to entice Hornby terrier owners to trade up to there fillet steak version.

Maybe, but what could they get for the traded-in Hornby ones they are left with if they do?

 

I can envisage Hornby knocking their remaining stocks out for £50-£60 a go once sales start to flag, and I wouldn't bet against that being timed to coincide with the Rails releases. Of course, I could be wrong but, given the history, it would be prudent for Rails to expect spoiling tactics from Hornby.

 

If it did happen, dealers couldn't expect to realise more than £40-£45 for s/h Hornby ones, and Rails' offer of £30 for a cash buy-in starts to look bang on, if not a tad generous.

 

John

 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Maybe, but what could they get for the traded-in Hornby ones they are left with if they do?

 

I can envisage Hornby knocking their remaining stocks out for £50-£60 a go once sales start to flag, and I wouldn't bet against that being timed to coincide with the Rails releases. Of course, I could be wrong but, given the history, it would be prudent for Rails to expect spoiling tactics from Hornby.

 

If it did happen, dealers couldn't expect to realise more than £40-£45 for s/h Hornby ones, and Rails' offer of £30 for a cash buy-in starts to look bang on, if not a tad generous.

 

John

 

 

John the only thing that might not work in that idea is that it would put Hornby back in the 'fire sale' situation which they have said is dead.  However if the tooling cost has been amortised there would be little to stop them producing further batches in new livery variants (kept simple to keep production costs down) and bang them out at a lower price.  But the problem with that is that it could undermine their aims, and policy, of achieving improved margins.  so in some respects whatever they do they will be between a rock and a hard place if they think of competing using price as a weapon selling point.

 

But in the end I don't think it will matter all that much whatever they do.  The market for a Hornby 'not quite right in various details' Terrier is basically a Hornby market with wide distribution and selling because of the brand.  The Rails Terrier is aimed at a rather different market with not only its 'fillet steak' approach to the model but a tie up with the NRM and a worldwide direct sales situation to people around the world who buy from Rails.  That market situation reportedly worked well for the dynamometer car and while a multi livery/detail variations loco is hardly the same thing we are looking at a different type of customer loyalty as well as marketable differences in the detail of the models.  I don't doubt for one minute that some potential/pre-ordered Terrier sales moved from Rails to Hornby but in the end I doubt that will do much sales damage to the Rails/NRM model.  And the latest livery samples were definitely getting some 'oohs' and 'ahs' when they were displayed at the SECR D launch event.

[trevor7598]

I paid off the balance for my Terrier yesterday, and was told that they should be available

in about two to three weeks time. So the long wait in nearly over ( well, it seems like a long wait,

but is actually not that long compared to some models that were announced many moons ago ).

 

If the Terrier is as good as Dapol's LSWR B4, I for one will be very happy.

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

I paid off the balance for my Terrier yesterday, and was told that they should be available

in about two to three weeks time. So the long wait in nearly over ( well, it seems like a long wait,

but is actually not that long compared to some models that were announced many moons ago ).

 

If the Terrier is as good as Dapol's LSWR B4, I for one will be very happy.

The B4 is a good example to quote .Like the forthcoming Terrier,a small loco ,beautifully finished,up there with the best and with a mechanism for slow smooth running that puts it top of the class.

[Edwardian]

On 26/10/2019 at 11:28, The Stationmaster said:

John the only thing that might not work in that idea is that it would put Hornby back in the 'fire sale' situation which they have said is dead.  However if the tooling cost has been amortised there would be little to stop them producing further batches in new livery variants (kept simple to keep production costs down) and bang them out at a lower price.  But the problem with that is that it could undermine their aims, and policy, of achieving improved margins.  so in some respects whatever they do they will be between a rock and a hard place if they think of competing using price as a weapon selling point.

 

But in the end I don't think it will matter all that much whatever they do.  The market for a Hornby 'not quite right in various details' Terrier is basically a Hornby market with wide distribution and selling because of the brand.  The Rails Terrier is aimed at a rather different market with not only its 'fillet steak' approach to the model but a tie up with the NRM and a worldwide direct sales situation to people around the world who buy from Rails.  That market situation reportedly worked well for the dynamometer car and while a multi livery/detail variations loco is hardly the same thing we are looking at a different type of customer loyalty as well as marketable differences in the detail of the models.  I don't doubt for one minute that some potential/pre-ordered Terrier sales moved from Rails to Hornby but in the end I doubt that will do much sales damage to the Rails/NRM model.  And the latest livery samples were definitely getting some 'oohs' and 'ahs' when they were displayed at the SECR D launch event.

 

I agree. Despite the Trollish propaganda to the contrary, I've always felt (and said) that the Hornby Terrier is a good model for the price.  Yes, each may cost the other some sales, but fundamentally I think the two models serve different markets.  With the old Dapol/Hornby 1989 tooling in the Railroad range we have effectively a budget  (though not that budget!), mid-price and premium (or whatever you want to call it) option.  I am sure the market will respond accordingly.  It would be worse, I think, if you had two rival products at the same standard and price point, because in such a case both must lose.  Here at least customers can make choices based upon their differing needs, priorities and criteria. 

 

Incidentally, I notice that Pendon are running the budget option on Madder Valley.  I wonder if anyone here feels they should upgrade and, if so, to which of the 2019 Terriers?

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

[The Stationmaster]

An obvious answer would be one in WC&PR or GWR livery.  (but then I would say that wouldn't I   )

[Les1952]

On 26/10/2019 at 08:07, Dunsignalling said:

Maybe, but what could they get for the traded-in Hornby ones they are left with if they do?

 

I can envisage Hornby knocking their remaining stocks out for £50-£60 a go once sales start to flag, and I wouldn't bet against that being timed to coincide with the Rails releases. Of course, I could be wrong but, given the history, it would be prudent for Rails to expect spoiling tactics from Hornby.

 

If it did happen, dealers couldn't expect to realise more than £40-£45 for s/h Hornby ones, and Rails' offer of £30 for a cash buy-in starts to look bang on, if not a tad generous.

 

John

 

 

 

A few years ago I helped a colleague who was dabbling in collectables.  The going rule there for secondhand (and I've had it quoted to me by a model railway retailer (an online one) was buy in at one third of retail and sell at two thirds of retail.  There is the obvious caveat that adjustments (usually downwards) are made for condition.

 

Les

 

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

A few years ago I helped a colleague who was dabbling in collectables.  The going rule there for secondhand (and I've had it quoted to me by a model railway retailer (an online one) was buy in at one third of retail and sell at two thirds of retail.  There is the obvious caveat that adjustments (usually downwards) are made for condition.

 

Les

 

 

This countered by a second rule whereby if you did not know then "stick it high".

[Edwardian]

The cheaper Hornby version is priced to suit bodgers and bashers, but there seems to be a distinct lack of UK prototypes with 4' coupled wheels at 6' centres. I'd consider a second hand one, but haven't yet identified anything else I could hack one into.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The cheaper Hornby version is priced to suit bodgers and bashers, but there seems to be a distinct lack of UK prototypes with 4' coupled wheels at 6' centres. I'd consider a second hand one, but haven't yet identified anything else I could hack one into.

A generic Victorian 0-6-0 to match the coaches everyone is getting so perturbed about?