Hornby announcement 8th May

[phil gollin]

If Paul is still around, maybe he can enlighten us?

 

 

 

.

.

 

No.

 

The "Keep your ears to the ground and eyes peeled"  was Hornby.

 

The DLR Blueprint was Paul, but he claims he is innocent (although he didn't explain that at the time)

 

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[Dunsignalling]

Yes Hattons, that 'Limited by Guarantee' Company - with zero City shareholders to satisfy, whose financial results are not published showing losses year on year and whose survival is not in the hands of Banks due to the amount of debit the company has.

 

Hattons will have spent an awful lot of money by this stage on their 66 project - which Hornby cannot afford to do at present. As far as the upper management / financiers of Hornby are concerned, a rival volume producer (Bachmann) already has a high spec 66 in their range and as such it does not represent a good use of shareholders money to duplicate it. Trackside accessories which incur no design costs and which can be sold with a high profit margin are far more attractive to shareholders seeking cash to plug the losses.

Which suggests that Hatton's business model may (at least for now) represent a better way to participate in the model business than Hornby's.............

 

John

[Wolf27]

The class 74 didn’t make the press deadline then, oh well, something to look forward to at Warley.

Cheers

Shane

Edited May 8, 2018 by Wolf27

[Ron Ron Ron]

The DLR Blueprint was Paul, but he claims he is innocent (although he didn't explain that at the time)

 

A bit of a coincidence though?

DLR.....PLA. !!!!

 

 

 

"Keep your ears to the ground and eyes peeled" 

 

Aha !!

I've just twigged it.

 

Listen out and keep you eyes peeled for some Hornby will be digging up from the grave.

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

Exactly

 

While it has been amusing reading folks suggestions, it seems that most have forgotten how precarious Hornbys financial position is. Designing fresh tooling is an expensive business these days and not something to be rushed into.

 

The other factor to consider here is the way the model industry structure is organised - manufacturing outsourced to Chinese factories on a 'batch production' basis. In such an environment then if a 'production slot' becomes available due to say, a cancellation of something else (which may be nothing to do with model railways) the factory was due to make, it could be that Hornby gets offered a good deal price wise if it can step in and provide work for the factory at short notice. Some plastic accessories dating back decades may be ideal for this sort of opportunity - although re-runs of existing models are also an option if everything works out.

 

Of course some of the announcements may have been planned anyway - but I would suggest these are likely to be the more complex / finely decorated models which consume more factory time and thus are more likely to have needed to have their slots booked up some way in advance.

 

I think you miss the point Phil.   Announcing an announcement about what, in reality is exactly what you have described, seems like overkill of the craziest kind in today's market situation with ever increasing competition and where much of the market thrives on novelty.  Additional runs of existing models which sell well were hinted about in the recent past by titbits and hints in The Engine Shed and that would have fitted the bill and worked perfectly satisfactorily this time round as that medium was a top notch way of keeping in touch with the contemporary marketplace.

 

Instead Hornby went down this path - one which was probably likely to excite many people as a hint of something special which is what announcements of announcements seem to be from other people.  Then they don't actually announce anything special - basically some re-liveries that were probably to be expected anyway plus a load of old moulds reincarnated with various trainset items at what seem to be unmarketable prices.  Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking 'trainset items' but the marketing message here is very confused and it says to me that it probably means that unfortunately Hornby's marketing is also confused and this episode has done them more harm than good in one section of their market.

 

I hardly expected some great revelations of anything new but the announcement of an announcement approach was suggestive of something a bit special and I think it's been misused although Hornby's website has no doubt been besieged today.  But then let's look a bit further at the substance.  Just like they have done in the past Hornby are releasing into the market further examples of a recently released loco which has initially sold well, we're back to the old familiar pattern.  But does that also mean that the other symptom of that old familiar pattern will be repeated and the market will be quickly sated with a take up of but a small part of the new pacific releases.?  Don't forget retailers have seen this before and are no doubt cute enough in today's crowded marketplace to be rather careful about going overboard with orders for a pricey loco.  The Peckett is a bit different because it is not so expensive but according to another poster on this thread not even the whole of this year's existing new models have yet been taken up?  Just how many varieties of Peckett is a retailer likely to want on his shelves when they're competing now with the variety of small tank engines and industrial engines from various commissioners currently coming onto the market or seeking pre-orders?   I don't know the answer to that one and I suspect the new Pecketts will be reasonably popular but why oh why 'lose' them among a raft of other announcements?  Especially when Hornby already had a far more flexible tool for introducing them to the market place?

 

And if Hornby aren't tooling up new models then I'm afraid in today's market they are signing their own death warrant.  The market craves novelty and novelty means something new even if it isn't both new and different.  In order to survive and keep their head above water they have to recognise that and that means investing.  In my view it's far better to again either hint of that new investment coming via snatched screenshots from The Engine Shed or dropping ambiguous hints and so on but if they want to grab attention for something like that then by all means announce an announcement - and then deliver something worthy of it.

 

Sorry but I think as a marketing tool this process today, and leading up to it, has probably done their image, and people's view of their place in today's r-t-r market, more harm than good.  Equally if they are genuinely keen to develop the trainset market and growth from it into their wider range they need to do something a lot more radical, and developed with far greater thought, than announcing an announcement.  I'd hate to see Hornby fail but the 'message' coming out thus far this year is not one which gives me much cause for confidence - far more a case, yet again, of back to the past rather than building towards the future.

[RANGERS]

Wow, a book of trackplans - didn't see that one coming

Not something that went to plan then?

[jjb1970]

In some ways a more pertinent question may be to question what the future holds for retailers. I think the hobby is evolving rapidly in terms of suppliers, but with more of these suppliers effectively operating a direct sales model which cuts out the traditional retailer will the traditional suppliers revisit direct sales to compete? When Hornby tried to push direct sales my feeling at the time was that while timing may have been a little premature and implementation less than ideal it was fundamentally the right way forward. If you combine it with pre-ordering and manufacture to pre-order as per the Rapido model (albeit Rapido operate through traditional retailers) you can eliminate inventory, de-risk and price more aggressively. Obviously that also needs some degree of trust that the final model will be good. Certainly with an increasing number of desirable models appearing through direct sales channels of shop/suppliers such as Hattons, Rails and Kernow, or via crowdfunding it can't be a positive sign of the way the market is going for model shops. Although Bachmann are healthy and committed to the retailers they've been criticised for pricing in recent years and it can't be easy trying to compete against rivals who remove a layer of margin.

[GWR8700]

It's not the most exciting announcement but it's nice to see some more releases of models that recently sold out.  I am a bit bemused at the announcement of those old track accessories when there are so many available on ebay at a lower price.

However, a few weeks ago we had no idea that we were getting a new release so soon.  People got frothing and are now disappointed.  It might be better to completely surprise us like Hattons did today when a completely new tooling is not being announced.

I enjoy the little teases from Hornby, they are a very good way of creating interest but the risk is that people end up disappoined like today when actually there's quite a few nice things in there like the Peckett's and the Duchesses and Class 800.

Edited May 8, 2018 by GWR8700

[rab]

There should be an announcement, to announce the announcement.However, should the announcement precede the announcement, there might be an early announcement.There might be a late announcement, but due to a coffee break, it might be a latte announcement.Yours faithfully,Anne Ounce.

You're beginning to sound like Captain Kernow.

[Ian Hargrave]

I have both. If I wanted another (which I don't at present), it wouldn't be a Hornby one.

 

John

The Hattons DJM came in or a fair amount of stick when first released.I have three.All three run well and with identical performance characteristics.As the late P.Pilate (aka C.Laughton ) once is reputed to have uttered...I find no fault with this etc.,etc.,ashpan and coupling rods notwithstanding..Your choice of course.

[locoholic]

I do hope Hornby don't read this thread and think that all the whinging and doomsaying is representative of their core customers. They might decide to throw in the towel and switch to making hair shirts or home euthanasia kits!

[caradoc]

I wonder what, for the good of the company, people think Hornby should be announcing? 

 

Something I want and will therefore spend my money on; I'm sure that applies to most of us. I wish Hornby every success, and for those delighted by today's announcements, that's great. However Hornby produce little for my chosen era (BR 1972-76), and of what they do make some is of such poor quality that I will not waste cash on it (ie Mark 2d TSO, Mark 2e coaches). So, sadly for Hornby, my money is spent elsewhere.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes Hattons, that 'Limited by Guarantee' Company - with zero City shareholders to satisfy, whose financial results are not published showing losses year on year and whose survival is not in the hands of Banks due to the amount of debit the company has.

 

Hattons will have spent an awful lot of money by this stage on their 66 project - which Hornby cannot afford to do at present. As far as the upper management / financiers of Hornby are concerned, a rival volume producer (Bachmann) already has a high spec 66 in their range and as such it does not represent a good use of shareholders money to duplicate it. Trackside accessories which incur no design costs and which can be sold with a high profit margin are far more attractive to shareholders seeking cash to plug the losses.

 

I'm sorry Phil but if Hornby cannot afford to spend money on product development then they are heading downwards and not upwards.  They have an expensive organisation to support with some heavy costs at the top end and they need to think about their costs as much as their investment and do something about both.  if they are going to spend money on their organisation it needs to be spent on the parts of the organisation which generate product and business although they have at least scaled back their multitude of directors - but taht could go further I think.

 

Daft inedeed to develop a Class 66 in view of the fact there is already one out there but I do wonder about resurrecting 1960s accessories and trying to sell them at 21st century prices.

[rab]

.

 

So can anyone work out what Hornby's "hint" about keeping your ears to the ground and eyes peeled was/is about ?

 

.

Sounds like what we used to do as kids;

an ear to the rail to hear if a train was coming,

but eyes peeled in case we didn't hear it.

[Dunsignalling]

I do hope Hornby don't read this thread and think that all the whinging and doomsaying is representative of their core customers. They might decide to throw in the towel and switch to making hair shirts or home euthanasia kits!

Frankly, they've got what they asked for.

 

Having hyped the announcement in advance, it was quite reasonable for us to expect it to contain news of greater substance than it does.

 

I just consider myself thoroughly underwhelmed. 

 

John

[fezza]

The basic problem is they are largely relying on selling tarted up outdated models. In Business Studies it is called the 'Austin Rover' business model - and for a reason!

 

The poor recent results don't inspire investor confidence - and it probably means they are struggling to make a case for investment in new product lines.

Edited May 8, 2018 by fezza

[FJ1701]

Perhaps we are lacking foresight as Dr Beeching once did and fail to see what the future may bring, maybe Hornby have commenced production on a selection of high quality models which will be released early next year and we are just being taken for a ride.

 

Who knows however what I can say is, today was an absolute disgrace. Is Hornby really stuck in 1982! We are in 2018 for goodness sake and whatever their financial situation may be, it's certainly not right to mislead the modelling community by saying "29 surprises" when they go on to release a product page of old Triang bridges and plastic moulds being sold for absurd prices. Yes the new Pecket liveries were a good idea and so was the Blue Coronation but come on Hornby, you are losing your customers! Dapol is here to stay, Hattons is here to stay, Rails exclusives are here to stay. Hornby you have new competition, so stay fresh, bring new ideas to the table otherwise you will go bankrupt.

 

Many thanks, Rory

Edited May 8, 2018 by FJ1701

[The Stationmaster]

"Au contraire yourself" in what respect? The definition is in a dictionary. It is a noun. I love the way language changes and adapts. It's not always pretty, but it's always fascinating.

 

 

 

I think you will find that it only makes sense as a noun if it is preceded by a definite or indefinite article such as 'the reveal' when talking about part of a window area.  In the context in which it was originally criticised it was indeed sloppy language using a verb as a noun without bothering to qualify it.

 

Alas this is often the case with today's dumbed down versions of our language which occur both in print and in the atrociously sloppy way we hear in some spoken attempts at English

[Steamport Southport]

There's been a few mentions of the accessories.

 

 

It might be worth looking at what is sold in high street retailers. Both Hobbycraft and Argos sell the accessories, but not many model locomotives. That's the market.

http://www.argos.co.uk/search/Hornby/

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Edwardian]

While it's true that the Bachmann 66 is showing its age against more recent D&E offerings done to higher standards, it should be pointed out that it's light years ahead of Hornby's cheaper, re-hashed ex-Lima 66, despite achieving much better paint jobs than on the Lima original.

 

as someone said on the Hattonss 66 thread, an open goal missed by the "big 2" and a licence to print money for Hattons.

 

 

 

 

 

It's not only the LE commissions.

They churn out lots of standard livery variants every year, with new ones added almost every year.

The standard release 66's have been a steady earner for Bachmann for more than a decade.

Bachmann are now faced with having a less well detailed model, with fewer operating features, than a new competitor is offering for around the same price.

 

Hornby's inferior and cheaper model becomes more dated and even less appealing in the process.

 

 

.

 

It does seem that the lesson here is to update tooling.  I wouldn't have noticed a new Class 66 tooling, but I did notice Hornby updating tooling, for instance, for GW 2800, Hall, Castle and King.  Why not a diesel cash-cow, I wonder? 

 

 

 

Smaller niches will inevitably mean smaller production runs and higher prices.

 

 

 

That's where I was going with my post; I think that's right.

 

 

I do hope Hornby don't read this thread and think that all the whinging and doomsaying is representative of their core customers. They might decide to throw in the towel and switch to making hair shirts or home euthanasia kits!

 

Hornby has never been better in some areas. It would be a tragic irony to see it decline and fail now.  

 

Dapol are clearly not there yet. Heljan looks patchy. Oxford, least said the better.  Really, an established player that produces better stuff than the aforementioned ought not to be in danger.  

[Guest JoeHart2]

There is nothing of interest for me in Hornby's announcement.  I'm off to read some more crowdfunding 'twaddle'... 

[Ian Hargrave]

Well that was worth waiting for.......not. Basically Hornby could have announced all these additions without the song and dance.

Well done Hattons for completely overshadowing Hornby's announcements with a state of the art model at a reasonable price.

Exactly. All a bit like "The Emperor's New Clothes".A P.R. Stunt that went off half cock or at worst imploded.Not clever.

 

The message should be...let's have a rejuvenated Engine Shed complete with original cast.Nobody did it better.

Stationmaster Mike's post 840 is compulsory reading and is an excellent summation of the current Hornby identity crisis.

[Oldddudders]

So in order to counteract our disappointment at the content of the announcement, we have to dissect the way it's presented. No wonder RMWebbers are seen as 'Suckers' by those outside the forum.

 

I wasn't disappointed, as I had no expectation of a new killer model for my needs. But press etc releases such as this can be written many weeks in advance and approved. After being here nearly 10 years, if I am a "sucker" so be it. I'll have you know I've been insulted by experts.....

[The Stationmaster]

Its to be hoped this one can go round corners without derailing

 

Just been over to the Hattons thread . 30 new variants of one brand new model, delivered in 10 months at a reasonable price for the spec. This is how the market has moved on . Compare it with the Hornby announcement, limited models some extremely expensive . The difference is stark. Its new and old ways of doing things. Really Hornby need to evolve to survive . The Hattons announcement is the sort of WOW announcement Hornby needed.

 

I think this is exactly the point Hornby seems to have lost.  The Engine Shed gave them something fairly fleet of foot in the increasingly crowded marketplace but it seems to have been downgraded to be replaced by nonsense like this 'announcement of an announcement' which failed to live up to implied hint of something new or important coming along.  Meanwhile Hattons - already clearly well along the Class 66 path - took the very clever step of being fleet of marketing foot and rained on Hornby's lacklustre parade with an announcement offering novelty - something genuinely new - and jumping right into a pre-advertised date.

 

Sorry Hornby but unless you wake up from your back to the past, stuck in the mud, ideas of marketing you're going to die a death of a thousand self-administered cuts. 

No giraffe car again!

 

What's the point...

.

 

Don't worry Tim - if one of today's 'highlights' is the reintroduction of the suspension bridge which first appeared when I was a teenager (i.e a very long time ago, I'm now a pensioner!) I think you can rest assured that the giraffe car won't be far behind, if they can find the tooling.

[Dunsignalling]

It does seem that the lesson here is to update tooling.  I wouldn't have noticed a new Class 66 tooling, but I did notice Hornby updating tooling, for instance, for GW 2800, Hall, Castle and King.  Why not a diesel cash-cow, I wonder? 

 

 

 

That's where I was going with my post; I think that's right.

 

 

 

Hornby has never been better in some areas. It would be a tragic irony to see it decline and fail now.  

 

Dapol are clearly not there yet. Heljan looks patchy. Oxford, least said the better.  Really, an established player that produces better stuff than the aforementioned ought not to be in danger.  

 

I think the problem for Hornby is that the way the business is structured requires the sort of base-load demand provided by catering for the BR steam era (1948-1968) in order to function.

 

Some of the "others" may well prove more agile and better suited to a new landscape of small niches from which we baby-boomers will have departed.  

 

However, the attractions of the transition era won't die with us, and it will probably remain the single most important 20-year era in commercial terms, just not so dominant as now.

 

A more unnerving possibility, though, is that the spending of the current older generation is all that gives the r-t-r industry (as it currently exists) its critical mass. Without it trade participation in the hobby might shrink drastically into ever smaller, more specialised units with pricing to match. Something like it was before Messrs Bassett-Lowke and Hornby came on the scene.

 

John

Edited May 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling