Hornby announcement 8th May

[adb968008]

Indeed, I see Piko as perhaps the principal architects of the difficulties faced by some of the more established suppliers (in terms of market position, Piko aren't a new company but they re-invented themselves after the fall of the GDR). Piko have done two things that some seem to think can't be done in the world of models:

 

 

• They've managed to produce excellent models combining good detail and superb running at prices which defy the usual inflationary pressures of the hobby
• They've successfully developed a three tier range in HO to appeal to different parts of the hobby

Not to mention their efforts in G.....

Piko has performed a miracle, but there is a feeling in 2018 they too have slowed down, and small price rises have started to creep in.

What they have done though, is drive a coach and horses through the European pricing principles. Second hand prices of competitor products is below Piko new prices, leaving competitors with a huge gulf in price ranges which has to be hurting new sales.

Another thing they haven’t done.. is steam, they’ve stuck with modern image for new toolings.

Edited May 8, 2018 by adb968008

[Scottish-Exile]

In the last few years, there’s really only Hornby and Hattons, whom have announced and delivered in a year time frame or abouts.

Hornby Oct 2015 announced the Peckett that arrived by Christmas 2016, At Warley 2016 they announced the SECR H, class 800 and Duchess, all of which were running on the test track at Warley in 2017..

Hattons announced the Barclay and P in September 2017, and we had them in March 2018.

 

Along with RealTrack and their 156. Announced Nov 16 at Warley and on my layout last October, 11 months later.

[7013]

I hink we sometimes forget that Hornby have released some superb models recently, Duchess, air smoothed MN, Pecket, 800. With the 'Nelson' waiting in the sidings.

Hornby would have been better off making a big deal of the Blue MN, and slipped the other things in over the coming weeks with no fuss. If they had kept the announcements minimal, (say the blue MN), there would be much happiness all round. 

The marketing and publicity dept. at Hornby certainly need a shake up.

[jjb1970]

Piko has performed a miracle, but there is a feeling in 2018 they too have slowed down, and small price rises have started to creep in.

What they have done though, is drive a coach and horses through the European pricing principles.

Another thing they haven’t done.. is steam, they’ve stuck with modern image.

 

I suspect Piko are following a similar path to Kia and Hyundai cars, once they've established themselves as a brand that sells on the basis of quality and not just low cost then they can increase prices and price themselves somewhere still offering better value than established high end competitors but no longer at the budget end of the market.

[SteveC32]

You forgot to mention the Class 60 which again Hornby have dropped the ball big time by not doing another DB Schenker Red 60 let alone ignoring the Class 56 liveries which haven't been done yet i.e. UKRL & further Colas variants.

Completely agree with you on the Class 60 DB Schenker Red

[sidmouth]

Hornby like so many business looked to separate the manufacture and become a selling company . Trouble is you are trying to make a margin and then without direct sales channel your outlets also need to make a margin. This is all fine but when your sellers start to erode your exclusivity by cutting you out the business foundation becomes a challenge. Why pay Hornby's Margin when you can commission and sell direct , earn a bigger margin but still sell cheaper

 

The losers will also reluctantly be the smaller sellers who can't sell these retailer only commissions . A good friend of mine who runs a model shop is diplomatically less than happy by this turn of events 

 

The saving grace for Hornby is that retailer commissions will be I suspect a limited range. The downside for us as consumers could be any contraction in the ranges of Hornby, Bachmann etc will see our choice diminished 

 

 

The second thing that for me counts against Hornby and most manufactuers is quality . I am reluctant to pay an increasingly high price for a product that is poor quality . The well documented Mazak problems , poor build quality , lack of spare parts does not make me want to part with my hard earned cash and will wait for special offers or resale through well known auction sites 

Edited May 8, 2018 by sidmouth

[JSpencer]

Where Hatton's have had direct management with the factory they seem to have done quite well with forecasting a date. The P and ABs were around 3 months from the initial projection, the Beilhacks within 2 months and the Warwells were ahead of forecast. Granted the announcements were made well into the process where there can be more accuracy in dates.

They have also announced 2 reruns of sold out Pecketts, I cannot remember Hattons doing that before and they must be confident they will arrive quickly as this sort of thing is strike the iron while hot, and such reruns probably won,t be of any use arriving in a years time.

[Ouroborus]

Chaps, to save me scrolling through 37 pages, was it the DLR train? And were there any BR blue d&e?

[Legend]

Personally I think this year is an opportunity for Bachmann to become the "British brand leader of 00 model railways", a title only associated with the well known "house hold" name Hornby. But with Hornby in financial and supposedly manufacturing difficulties along with pressure from smaller retailers such as Hattons, Dapol and Rails, Bachmann should broaden their market, lower their prices and at least try solve the drought of models if you will that we are currently experiencing. The market is changing and we're in a new era of highly detailed commissioned models that threaten the big players.

 

Rory

But they aren’t . Bachmann are going for high spec high priced models. Possibly this is due to constraints at Kader who seem to be full . I’m sure they are not going to make low priced British models when they could earn more from European or US models , or even not models at all. So I don’t see an increase in capacity from Bachmann anytime soon.

 

Hornby is still the big brand .

[dibber25]

Piko has performed a miracle, but there is a feeling in 2018 they too have slowed down, and small price rises have started to creep in.

What they have done though, is drive a coach and horses through the European pricing principles. Second hand prices of competitor products is below Piko new prices, leaving competitors with a huge gulf in price ranges which has to be hurting new sales.

Another thing they haven’t done.. is steam, they’ve stuck with modern image for new toolings.

 

Comparing the European and British markets is chalk and cheese. What works in Europe - or indeed what works in the USA - doesn't necessarily work in the UK. Steam outsells modern traction in the UK. It doesn't in North America or Europe - probably because those areas had a lot more 'modern traction' before the UK did. Whatever the reason, it's a fact - hence Hattons have couple of successful steam models under their belt already and only today have announced their first diesel. (CJL)

[Geoff Endacott]

Why don't they bring back Battle Space? It could be brought up to date by branding it as the Donald Trump range.

 

Geoff Endacott

[robmcg]

Personally I think this year is an opportunity for Bachmann to become the "British brand leader of 00 model railways", a title only associated with the well known "house hold" name Hornby. But with Hornby in financial and supposedly manufacturing difficulties along with pressure from smaller retailers such as Hattons, Dapol and Rails, Bachmann should broaden their market, lower their prices and at least try solve the drought of models if you will that we are currently experiencing. The market is changing and we're in a new era of highly detailed commissioned models that threaten the big players.

 

Rory

 

I agree.

 

Apart from the HST thing no re-tooling, no new tooling, some re-paints, and a trackplan book.

 

This is more an exercise in marketing-speak 'reveal'.

 

Designed to appease the bankers, I presume, with near-zero investment, and I can hear the Chairman's report already, " clear strategy for stabilisation and proven trading expertise, going forward'.....

 

I had half expected a re-structure with some kind of delineation of brands and new funding arrangements, but I guess that's a board decision not a marketing-hype event?

 

Some overweight board on a sinking ship, as I see it. It will have to be split up into smaller trading groups with speciality expertise, possibly in conjunction with such as Hattons, Oxford, DJM, or whoever has the ability.

 

The age of kids wanting to build model railways may not be completely over, but it's very different from the 1950s, and there is a lucrative market for models which appeal to the 45-75yr age group.  Not really addressed the current market at all, except in terms of do nothing, reduce costs, please the bankers.

 

At least those are my initial thoughts. .

[KDG]

Chaps, to save me scrolling through 37 pages, was it the DLR train? And were there any BR blue d&e?

Errrrrrrr no

[Coryton]

The age of kids wanting to build model railways may not be completely over, but it's very different from the 1950s, 

 

It certainly isn't completely over.

 

But I'm sure it's not what it was.

[Les1952]

Looking at the accessories- all very simple.

 

Could it be that these might be UK made?  No huge assembly time in any of them.  As Dapol make much of their similar stuff at Chirk could Hornby be moving along this path without us really spotting it?

 

Just a thought.

 

GWR stuff not really for me, though that blue Port of London Peckett looks rather tasty.

 

Les

Edited May 8, 2018 by Les1952

[Les1952]

It certainly isn't completely over.

 

But I'm sure it's not what it was.

 

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....

 

Les

[brack]

Could it be that these might be UK made? No huge assembly time in any of them.

Yes, they might well have found a container of old stock (or maybe that's not quite what you meant?).

[robmcg]

I hink we sometimes forget that Hornby have released some superb models recently, Duchess, air smoothed MN, Pecket, 800. With the 'Nelson' waiting in the sidings.

Hornby would have been better off making a big deal of the Blue MN, and slipped the other things in over the coming weeks with no fuss. If they had kept the announcements minimal, (say the blue MN), there would be much happiness all round. 

The marketing and publicity dept. at Hornby certainly need a shake up.

 

I think the 'big 29 announcements' thing as per Engine Shed was so amateur and poor that, apart from the hype and froth, which was great fun, there was and is no substance whatsoever.

 

I agree Hornby have great expertise and many of their models are astonishingly good, but more and more I am thinking that this is in spite of management rather than because of it. I would like to state also that I think Simon Kohler would not have done things this way if he had the power, he was the main instigator of the high standards Hornby achieved in the 2000-2011 era much of it without the full endorsement of the Board, and one thing he does not do is hype. Again, in my opinion, and I mention it because certain respondents here appear to have it in for him.  To blame one person for Hornby's woes is vindictive, simplistic, and outright wrong.

 

So I look forward to Lord Nelsons, and presumably a blue Merchant Navy...

[stock_2007]

There should be an announcement, to announce the announcement.

 

However, should the announcement precede the announcement, there might be an early announcement.

 

There might be a late announcement, but due to a coffee break, it might be a latte announcement.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Anne Ounce.

I had a friend who had a problem with pre-announcement got this cream off the Doc' worked wonders

[andyman7]

Blimey! Lots of people take this stuff really seriously! I agree that the fanfare and frothing was a bit overblown, but I can see the strategy behind the announcements. Firstly, the 'old Triang tat' is not some resurrection of ancient items, it is just putting back into stock staple items for train set expansion that were always available to dealers year after year but which the supply chain woes of recent years have completely disrupted. I don't reckon a single reader of RMWeb wants or needs the viaduct, or the brick bridge, or the platform fencing but amazingly there are ordinary people who want to buy this stuff who don't expect to have to find it on ebay or at toy fairs, but just want to go online or to their local shop and buy it. Hornby is the ONLY manufacturer that offers a complete range for ordinary people. If they can sell the stuff new at the quoted prices that's fine, we all know where to get it cheaper but the point is this sort of thing should not ever be out of the catalogue. Same with the track plans. Otherwise, if a newbie has bought a train set and wants to have a go at expanding it, what are they supposed to do? 

 

Secondly, they are backfilling a number of key items that have been selling out so quickly that they are not getting any of the exposure or sales that could be earned outside of those who faithfully pre-order. I liked the look of the H&P Peckett but I sneezed and they all sold out. If I visit my regular retailer and he has one on the shelf (as opposed to never made it into the shop because it went out on pre-order), I don't think I will be able to resist buying it - surely I'm not the only one?

 

And finally - yes the IEP is expensive, but it is the latest brand new InterCity train on the network. This really shouldn't be a model that is hard to source, it should be on the shelves for a while and it can be something that is aimed for, so making some more (and different versions) helps to recreate Hornby as a brand that makes something people might want, as opposed to making something people might want, except by the time they realised it was out it had sold out..

 

So there is a logic in the approach - time will tell whether it pays off. 

[adb968008]

Comparing the European and British markets is chalk and cheese. What works in Europe - or indeed what works in the USA - doesn't necessarily work in the UK. Steam outsells modern traction in the UK. It doesn't in North America or Europe - probably because those areas had a lot more 'modern traction' before the UK did. Whatever the reason, it's a fact - hence Hattons have couple of successful steam models under their belt already and only today have announced their first diesel. (CJL)

I’m very glad to hear someone like yourself say this.

For the last few years we are being persuaded that UK prices should be more like European prices, because we’ve benefitted at manufacturer losses to achieve that lower UK price, when all along markets & costs are the same.

 

At the end of the day a Piko ET22, or a Hornby class 87 or a Hattons class 66 when it comes down to it is an assembly of parts on a Chinese shop floor.. the costs aren’t that different just because of the language on the side of the model... I don’t believe Piko sell more PKP ET22’s than Hornby sells class 87’s or that shipping to Germany is vastly cheaper than the UK.

 

I think What we can agree though.. is Piko has been making what the market they serve has been demanding, and reaped the benefits of doing so... and at a price nearly half that of their competitors same class of models in the same market...

compare the BR120.. Rocos was last BR120 was around a few years back at 200+ Euro RRP.. the new Piko one has an rrp of 139 Euro for a new tooling in 2018... that’s cheaper than any modern image tooling in the UK, including the Hattons 66.

http://www.piko-shop.de/index.php?vw_type=artikel&vw_id=25689 Bargain and it’s “expert” range too, if they can afford this, make money and have sustained this pattern for several years now, whilst having a legacy milestone set of toolings back to the 70’s, a huge amount of established competition in a saturated market, with the addition legacy of being associated of being “cheap communist models” clearly they have done something right, I understand they have supplied to UK suppliers also from their Chinese workshops.

 

The common thread here perhaps to consider is flattening the supply chain, Piko owns a factory, so is a true manufacturer and its own distributor, Hattons has removed the distributor from the supply chain... both must achieve savings, that preserved margin whilst being price competitive, whilst most importantly.. making what the market wants... not sure it’s chalk and cheese when it comes to business sense.

 

Bringing this back to Hornby.. consider this..

£140 rrp

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-4-4-2t-adams-radial-415-class-early-br.html

£104 rrp

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/products/adams-southern-late-sunshine-lettering-3520-or76ar007

Both radials, both same livery, toolings of similar age, and arguably under similar management, made in China.. the only difference I see is ownership of the supply chain... perhaps the exactly 25% difference in price is Hornbys “middle man” margin ?

Edited May 8, 2018 by adb968008

[Big James]

Fair play to hattons in the 66 they saw a whole in the market and went for it. But as someone else said they are selling direct to us so they can price at cost and undercut Bachmann’s 66. But imagine the cries if Hornby has said we will be selling direct from our website priced between cost and what the model shops will sell it at. Completely cutting out the middle man as Hattons have done. People would cry they are the worst company ever. Fair enough maybe their isn’t anything in the new 29 announcement for me other then another Peckett. But with the lord Nelson in the horizon 2 more light Pacific’s this year, plus other products I probably should think twice about before purchasing it’s gjven me a sigh of relief. As most weeks I do 50+ hour week I haven’t got time to kit build and scratch build so my railway is RTR. As A southern modeller Hornby has been really good to me. If they wasn’t around I would still make do, as my other interest is the 30’s LNER but i wouldn’t wouldn’t be able to indulge my true love the 60’s BR(SR).

 

Sorry for the long ramble by the way guys. I do understand where the majority of you are coming from.

 

Big james

Edited May 8, 2018 by Big James

[mdvle]

The saving grace for Hornby is that retailer commissions will be I suspect a limited range. The downside for us as consumers could be any contraction in the ranges of Hornby, Bachmann etc will see our choice diminished 

 

There are now 15 competitors to Hornby to varying degrees.  This somewhat by default means that the Hornby range will shrink as unless they suddenly invest a very large sum of money they simply can't bring all their existing models up to current expectations and the nature of available prototypes means those 15 competitors can't avoid items currently provided by Hornby.

 

So the only question really is how well Hornby adapts to the current market situation.

[scottrains29]

I can't understand why Hornby thinks it makes sense to release yet more Virgin loco hauled mk3s on top of the ones they already announced a few months ago, further flooding the market with more Virgin mk3s (ebay always seems to have them for cheap prices). Unless OxfordRail really mess up the livery on their forthcoming highly detailed loco hauled Virgin mk3s, who is actually going to buy the crude Hornby ones? Bizarrely, the Hornby ones actually have a higher rrp than the OxforRail ones!

 

It's about time Hornby listened to what customers actually want. GNER coaches on ebay have been in great demand for many years now, often going for silly prices, yet Hornby haven't bothered to produce them for a very long time. The Hornby mk3s should also be put into the railroad range selling for about half the cost of the Oxford ones.

[mdvle]

Fair play to hattons in the 66 they saw a whole in the market and went for it. But as someone else said they are selling direct to us so they can price at cost and undercut Bachmann’s 66. But imagine the cries if Hornby has said we will be selling direct from our website priced between cost and what the model shops will sell it at.

 

But Hornby already did this in the not to distant past and combined with the previous period when Hornby struggled to get product made and into stores, and Bachmann's current troubles getting new models made and into stores is likely what has led to the current move by Hattons.

 

As a retailer you only survive if you have product to sell.  When your 2 main suppliers struggle or try to compete directly with you, then you need to look for alternate sources of product to keep the bills paid and at this point for at least 4 retailers that has meant going into the model producing business.

 

The only real question mark is how things develop from here now that Hattons has crossed an imaginary line and gone for a mainstream model instead of a more niche model.

 

As mentioned by someone else the ones who really have some pondering to do now are the smaller retailers who so far haven't gone done the commissioning/deal direct with China route to have exclusive models.  Perhaps the answer for some of them is to look around and form a partnership of smaller shops to pool their money into making an exclusive model to give them something to help compete with the likes of Hattons.