Hornby announcement 8th May

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

 

Previous management at Hornby had cleared vast stocks of Airfix to High Street retailers like Aldi, Home and Bargain etc, selling off valuable assets and massively undercutting shops like ourselves. These bargain Airfix kits still appear from time to time and will no doubt reappear at Christmas until all the stock is exhausted. It was only a few months ago that if you bought a certain daily newspaper you received a free Airfix Spitfire comlete with paints, glue etc. I can see the marketing logic but only through sad eyes.

 

 

Widnes Model Centre

 

It wasn't quite the good deal it seemed to be.

 

It was only at certain retailers, whilst stocks last. In other words it was go to John Menzies or wherever it was and they might have some in stock. None in my local branch as I asked.

 

Or you could send off the voucher and pay postage and packing totalling something like £6. That's after paying for the newspaper.

 

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

I don't really see that what Hatton's are doing differs in any respect, other than the extent of the range, from how Hornby operate these days.

 

Expenditure can be extracted from that which might otherwise come Hornby's way even without duplication.

 

In my own case, I'm no longer interested in another Peckett since purchasing a Barclay from Hatton's. My impending Kernow 10203, Warship, and Heljan 47xx will cost around £500 between them, and it is likely that at least some that would otherwise have been spent on Hornby products.

 

Hornby's Railroad 66 is aimed at and priced for a different market segment than Hatton's are going for. It's the Bachmann one in the firing line.

 

From what we know so far, it is expected that the Hatton's models will be superior to those currently produced from eight-year-old tooling by Bachmann, whilst direct selling means Hatton's will be able to undercut their prices. 

 

Bachmann can respond to the challenge in one of three ways:

 

1. Upgrade their model, which is unlikely to happen unless they are already well advanced in doing so,   

 

2. Reduce their prices to reflect the model's new position between the Hatton's and Hornby offerings. Contrary to the policies of their parent company, but the tooling will have already recovered its costs so there is probably some leeway.

 

3. Drop the model altogether. Probably unlikely given that they generally seem more committed to "modern" than are Hornby.

 

Of those options, only the second would represent a direct threat to Hornby's interests, in this specific case, but competition is competition and who knows from where the next challenge will come or what model will be targeted.

 

John    

Edited May 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

It is the wording "Big Surprise" that may have killed it. I'm sure if it was just "Nice Surprise", we would all be celebrating the extra IE800, Pecketts and Duchesses and what a great inclusion they are to the 2018 program.

 

This is short term tweeking to a current program to get a better return on new tooling rather than the long term plan.

 

The only thing missed is that there is still no late crest and late style original Merchant Navy even though Hornby tooled up that variant.

Edited May 9, 2018 by JSpencer

[phil-b259]

The idea that a retailer-commissioner is not a competitor of Red and Blue box strikes me as naive.

 

If you only look over your shoulder at traditional competitors, you'll be brought down by someone you never saw coming.

 

It is perhaps short sighted and naive - but I ask you did Tescos initially think the likes of Aldi or Lidel would seriously dent their profits or prompt a significant shift in the nations shopping habits?

 

The larger an organisation is - or the grater the number of stakeholders / shareholders in the case of PLCs, the harder it is to change the behaviour. In shipping terms Hornby is like an old bulk cargo ship - it takes ages to slow down / speed up / change course compared to small yachts or even large cross channel ferrys (which are like sportscars in large ship terms)

 

A decade or so ago if you had said the likes of Kernow, Hattons and Rails were going to produce stuff that seriously challenged traditional manufacturers I best most folk on here would have said you were having a laugh.

 

Hornby's structure as a PLC listed on the London stock exchange makes it harder to respond to new challenges (as opposed to Bachmann - them being a small part of a much bigger non UK business). Its unfortunate that the rise of the retailer procured models coincided with a fight for control of the Hornby group by key shareholders and the collapse of Hornbys traditional Chinese production network - which severely affected its ability to have new products to sell.

 

Going forward the question of how to tackle the rise of the retailer procured models is one Hornby will have to deal with. That they should have seen it coming is true - but given the recent proposal for a tie up between Asda and Sanisburys to tackle the rise of Aldi and Lidel, such lack of foresight is not unique to the model world.

Edited May 9, 2018 by phil-b259

[HonestTom]

I feel like I'm the only one who was quite pleased with the announcement - as a modeller of the East London area, the PLA Peckett is right up my street.

 

Re the plastic accessories, I don't think this is a stupid move. They're more child-friendly than Skaledale, they can easily be improved with a simple coat of paint and they probably cost pennies to produce - I suspect the idea is that these, like the Railroad 0-4-0s, are intended to shore up the rest of the range.

[PaulRhB]

While the R3691 Paddington liveried Hitachi is a nice enough choice, it is probably not going to help attract anyone new to the hobby.

 

With a £400 price point for a stand-alone train pack this is a serious model for enthusiasts with a lot of cash to splash and an existing layout.

 

The door tampo prints are cute but probably no more than 1cm high. Very few, if any, young Paddington fans are going to be pestering Mum and Dad for this pack. I am sure it will sell well but it won't grow the user-base.

 

If a parent wants to buy a Hornby train set for a kid there is nothing modern-era at a mass market price. R1155 Pendolino is well over £200 and out of stock. Does Hornby need a RailRoad version of the Hitachi IEP like it had with the Javelin and Eurostar?

 

.

I think the Paddington set is more likely to be bought by Paddington collectors than kids into Paddington

Well timed as the last book is due to be published.

 

Your comments on the first sets are a good point though and any plastic track system could be compatible with metal set track to allow upgrades or running on the parental layout. Nothing wrong with plastic track to 16.5 gauge even if it includes exaggerated rails to keep it on at warp speed

 

Especially with the loss of Thomas how do you introduce kids sets? Maybe with the plethora of plastic toy sets and Diecast Minis the market says kids sets aren't viable anymore so Railroad affordable options are even more important. A mates lad wants a GW HST but there's no way his parents can afford £4-500 on a Hornby set so thanks to Melangoose on here donating some coaches and me volunteering a repaint we can get him one for sub £100.

It was explained to him and he was delighted with that option as it's the train that's important not the ultimate detail. (Although he did specify the lights need to be right )

[phil-b259]

But they are only returning to the hobby because they either had a train set as a child or longed for one.  If they are not recruiting kids it is not a good long term sign for the brand if it lasts beyond the next year in its current form.

 

 

I fear you are being to specific in your definition of 'train set'

 

Plymobill, Lego, Brio, Tomy to name a few all produce what amounts to a 'train set' - many with extra accessories, track buildings etc.

 

The fact that they are not OO scale and use traditional HO metal track does not diminish their ability to get children interested in railways - its only adult modellers who look down their noses at such things and sneer.

 

The best thing Hornby have going for them is the company name. Most adults know Hornby as a maker of 'toy trains' / model railways - so if you are an adult looking to get back into the hobby, they are the natural place to turn.

 

Thus there is actually very little need for Hornby to have an extensive 'trainset presence' beyond the token set or two (i.e. as per Bachmann's approach). For as long as the UK has a thriving Heritage Railway sector and the likes of Tomy continue to churn out plastic railwayish stuff then interest in railway modelling is unlikely to disappear.

[Keep the Faith]

I fear you are being to specific in your definition of 'train set'

 

Plymobill, Lego, Brio, Tomy to name a few all produce what amounts to a 'train set' - many with extra accessories, track buildings etc.

 

The fact that they are not OO scale and use traditional HO metal track does not diminish their ability to get children interested in railways - its only adult modellers who look down their noses at such things and sneer.

 

The best thing Hornby have going for them is the company name. Most adults know Hornby as a maker of 'toy trains' / model railways - so if you are an adult looking to get back into the hobby, they are the natural place to turn.

 

Thus there is actually very little need for Hornby to have an extensive 'trainset presence' beyond the token set or two (i.e. as per Bachmann's approach). For as long as the UK has a thriving Heritage Railway sector and the likes of Tomy continue to churn out plastic railwayish stuff then interest in railway modelling is unlikely to disappear.

 

Playmobil and LEGO railway range are very niche and not listed in many mainstream retailers in the UK.  Tomy as a brand is nothing like as strong as they were in the 1980s and 1990s and Tomica is not listed in any major retailers either.  Brio still has some support in the independents but few carry the "system" and most major retailers now source a generic set direct from China.

 

So even though some of these brands are expandable (none to the level of 00 gauge), none are mainstream.  Like Hornby Junior these are mostly toys and not the start of a lifetime's hobby.  If youngsters don't know Hornby now why will they revert to the brand as parents?

[ikks]

You really do have to wonder..........The most popular era,evidently is the transition era (steam to diesel), red and green, no TTS  Duchesses would surely sell in greater numbers than blue and black ones ............as attractive as they may be!!

Hornby really need to wake up.....very sad.................Ask the modeler !!..........Simon/Ilsley

 

Mike

Edited May 9, 2018 by ikks

[dogbox321]

One important thing on the Hornby Front that I do not think has been mentioned - on the GWR HST and Coaches front are these going to be Gloss like the earlier batch, or matt/satin to go with the IEP's......  The Gloss finish was only upposed to be for the limited edition pack.  Personally as a side, with shops still having stock of the original HST packs (probably because a limited edition of 1000, is more than most production runs....[the Huntley and Palmers Peckett + wagons are 1000 too!]), surprised one of the power cars was not 43093 with its unique livery!  Likewise whilst getting the tooling out, a pack consisting of 43002/43185 would have been a good move.  As people can use them with GWR or First GW Mk3's.......

 

Regards,

 

C.

[bigherb]

There was a sign on the humbrol rack in the hobbycraft store citing factory problems as the problem with the irregular supply. I did get matt black however

Yes it burnt down.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Playmobil and LEGO railway range are very niche and not listed in many mainstream retailers in the UK.  

 

So even though some of these brands are expandable (none to the level of 00 gauge), none are mainstream.

 

I think you'll find Hornby trains are even more niche.

There is virtually no toy shop or High St. presence for the brand.

Not stocked by the leading toy retail chains like Smyths, or in the major department stores, like John Lewis or Debenhams.

Argos is one of the few places they can be found, outside of the specialist model railway and hobby shops.

 

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that quite a few people on here are rather deluded if they think it's a "mainstream" brand name.

Recognisable by many, but increasingly less so among younger adults.

 

Like Hornby Junior these are mostly toys and not the start of a lifetime's hobby.

That equally applies to all the other train sets, Hornby or otherwise, bought as toys for young children.

It's nothing to do with the model railway hobby.

It's just kids, playing with toys.

Nothing wrong with that and brilliant to boot, but being part of this hobby, it is not.

 

 

.

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Yes it burnt down.

 

That will be Rustins , who I seem to recall are one of the (possibly two) manufacturers, who supply the Humbrol paints.

 

Someone else may have more knowledge , but I think there is another supplier based in the Greater Manchester area.

 

 

.

[Steamport Southport]

 

I think you'll find Hornby trains are even more niche.

There is virtually no toy shop or High St. presence for the brand.

Not stocked by the leading toy retail chains like Smyths, or in the major department stores, like John Lewis or Debenhams.

Argos is one of the few places they can be found, outside of the specialist model railway and hobby shops.

 

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that quite a few people on here are rather deluded if they think it's a "mainstream" brand name.

Recognisable by many, but increasingly less so among younger adults.

 

 

 

.

 

Of course Hornby is a mainstream brand name. I can't buy a Rolls Royce in JL either. Doesn't mean it's not a major brand name recognisable all over the world.

 

Just put Hornby into Google and see how many results you get.

 

 

 

I think some just want to bash Hornby just for fun.

 

 

 

Jason

[scottrains29]

It's strange and very annoying that Hornby still haven't released a Virgin Trains 1st class MK2 coach (with lights) to match the Virgin standard and brake MK2 coaches that came out a couple of years ago now. Instead they are bringing out more Virgin mk3s even with the cheaper and better Oxford ones hitting the shelves soon.

 

I now have an incomplete rake of the new Virgin mk2s with lights. I can't complete the rake due to the lack of 1st class coach. Surely this must be putting off potential buyers, who like me want a complete and matching rake of coaches.

 

Is there a reason for this missing coach? Perhaps they are developing the micro buffet MK2 instead and not told anyone. More than likely Hornby just haven't bothered with it. Hornby really need some joined up thinking. It would greatly improve their financial situation if they actually listened to their customers and produced the items they actually want.

[Keep the Faith]

 

I think you'll find Hornby trains are even more niche.

 

And that is their problem.  Hornby do not have the set up of a niche manufacturer.

 

I certainly wasn't suggesting Hornby was mainstream - that ship sailed a couple of decades ago.  My point is that none of the "train set" sub-brands listed above - LEGO, Playmobil or Tomica are mainstream either.  Wooden train sets are widely sold but are now mainly as standalone sets rather than the Brio system.

 

The toy train play-pattern is simply far less common that it was.  Thomas becoming primarily a pre-school brand hasn't helped.

 

Hornby was once a desirable toy for children - possibly as late as the Bernard Cribbins years.  Boys (mainly) from the 1940s through to the 1980s grew up owning or wanting a Hornby set.  So in addition to a declining market for kids' train sets, parents now in their 20s and 30s are far less likely to have grown up owning or desiring a train set so are less likely to buy one for their kids.

 

Can the hobby survive?  Of course. 

Will the Hornby brand survive? Probably.

Can Hornby PLC with its large overhead and lack of adaptability survive?  Now that is the big question.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I fear you are being to specific in your definition of 'train set'

 

Plymobill, Lego, Brio, Tomy to name a few all produce what amounts to a 'train set' - many with extra accessories, track buildings etc.

 

The fact that they are not OO scale and use traditional HO metal track does not diminish their ability to get children interested in railways - its only adult modellers who look down their noses at such things and sneer.

I don't think it's so much sneering Phil.

Rather more of a recognition that toy trains for kids has virtually nothing to do with the model railway hobby, other than the subject matter being the same and that both involve imaginary play, albeit in entirely different contexts.

 

 

The best thing Hornby have going for them is the company name. Most adults know Hornby as a maker of 'toy trains' / model railways -

 

Many adults will know the name and associate it with children's toy trains; but as the toy train set (of the Hornby type) has largely vanished from the popularity stakes, many younger parents and adults may only be vaguely aware of the name, if at all.

 

 

...so if you are an adult looking to get back into the hobby, they are the natural place to turn.

 

How many of those adults getting into the hobby are "returning"?

More likely they are beginning, not returning, possibly with memories of having a toy train set as a child.

 

 

Thus there is actually very little need for Hornby to have an extensive 'trainset presence' beyond the token set or two (i.e. as per Bachmann's approach).

There's only a need for Hornby to continue a presence in the toy sector, if it's a profitable enterprise for them.

The notion that it could possibly be of benefit to them in 20, 30 or 40 years time is plainly fanciful nonsense.

 

These sort of toys are now bought and aimed at a very young audience.

Hence the prevalence of plastic and wooden toy trains for the pre-school and infant school age groups.

Like many toys, they'll be abandoned, thrown in the bin, donated to a charity sale or flogged of at a car boot sale within a year or two.

The "traditional" 00 electric train set doesn't really fit in too well, with todays market.

 

 

.

[Coryton]

Will the Hornby brand survive? Probably.

 

I would be extremely surprised if the brand disappeared.

 

We might not like what it could end up with being used for though.

[Simon Bendall]

One important thing on the Hornby Front that I do not think has been mentioned - on the GWR HST and Coaches front are these going to be Gloss like the earlier batch, or matt/satin to go with the IEP's

 

The HST is gloss according to the info released.

[LBRJ]

That will be Rustins , who I seem to recall are one of the (possibly two) manufacturers, who supply the Humbrol paints.

 

Someone else may have more knowledge , but I think there is another supplier based in the Greater Manchester area.

 

 

.

 

 

H Marcel Guest as I recall.

[phil-b259]

 

So even though some of these brands are expandable (none to the level of 00 gauge), none are mainstream.  Like Hornby Junior these are mostly toys and not the start of a lifetime's hobby.  If youngsters don't know Hornby now why will they revert to the brand as parents?

 

Because as far as the UK press, comedians and society at large is concerned, the word Hornby = model trains. Such brand associations are rather long lived even if people don't actually buy them Hovis = Bread, PG tips = Tea, Fairy = washing up liquid, Lego = Building toy.

 

Put it this way, I bet that if you picked a random selection of adults in the UK, more than 50% would know that Hornby = 'Toy Trains'. That level of brand awareness simply doesn't exist for Bachmann, Dapol, etc

 

I also think you are far too much stuck in the past about a 'lifetimes hobby angle. Its not the 1960s any more - lots of parents simply do not have time to spend nurturing an interest these days - as evidenced by the existence if waiting lists for things like scouts because they carn't get enough parents to help out and satisfy the duty of care requirements. This lack of parental time is combined with the advances in technology which have given rise to the gaming console - which requires no parental involvement and gives 'instant gratification'. - as does the profusion of TV channels or streaming services. Building a model railway is a 'long term' thing - and requires patience to do well. It also is generally not something a child can do on their own due to the need for various tools, glue etc. Building a Lego model by contrast requires no adult involvement, plus there is no waiting for glue to dry etc...

 

 

Effectively what keeps the supply of modellers coming is NOT that they had a Hornby trainset given to them as a child - rather they were exposed to train related material during their early years. This ranges from plastic TTE / Chugnington based toys to frequent visits to Heritage railways and exposure to model railways built by others (e.g. parent / grandparent).

 

Later on when they are an adult, they will therefore be receptive to the idea of taking up the Hobby should the right buttons be pressed by Hornby Bachmann or anyone else.

Edited May 9, 2018 by phil-b259

[Legend]

Could the reason for bringing out Virgin Mk3s not be that they are about to bring out a Virgin Class 87?   A bit of joined up thinking , giving credit where credits due. Not sure if these are HST mk3s or loco hauled, but for a large part of Hornbys market that simply wont matter. Not sure I'd be too bothered if I was in market for them.  Standard of decoration and cost (along with being the right length in case anyone thinks I'm prepared to accept shortie mk3s) would be my pre requisites.

 

Its the same market that will but the Coronation Scot set of three Staniers, the old 1977 versions. As I understand it they never carried red/gold livery in service, but it will look nice behind a nice red streamliner.

[phil-b259]

 

Its the same market that will but the Coronation Scot set of three Staniers, the old 1977 versions. As I understand it they never carried red/gold livery in service, but it will look nice behind a nice red streamliner.

 

The composite coach is also a work of fiction as the body was made to fit the same length underframe as the Brake 3rd (Real Composite was 60ft long, Real Brake 3rd 57ft long).

 

As you say though, they will look good behind a suitably decorated Duchess

[jjb1970]

I think there is a tremendous amount of goodwill towards Hornby amongst modellers (and collectors). I don't know any modeller that wants Hornby to die and every modeller I know wants them to succeed. Would the hobby survive without Hornby? Of course it would, their exit would create opportunities for other companies and it's not like there is a shortage of OO model suppliers just now. However I genuinely believe the hobby would be poorer without Hornby and it'd be a huge loss.

 

The frustration we are seeing on this thread is caused by just that, frustration. Hornby have shot themselves in the foot by turning what could have been a really positive mid year series of new announcements into a bit of a flop by completely mismanaging expectations and building this up into something it isn't. This comes on top of the sad decline of the Engine Shed from being a (model train) market leading communication tool to being very meh. And the woeful episode of Warley last year where they commenced a big build up of excitement to their presence being a damp squib. Their communications have gone from being a lesson to others in how to do it to being very poor. A year ago there was a real sense of positive momentum in product development, delivery and communications at the company, that has all but evaporated. The reason people are frustrated isn't because they're anti-Hornby, it is because they saw so many positives in what they were doing only to see it go into reverse almost overnight.

 

Much of this can be laid at the door of changes in their communication strategy. This is nothing personal and I don't think anybody is vindictive towards anybody at Hornby (for that you'd have found more evidence two or three years ago at the then senior management team) but the world changes. What once worked for communicating with customers isn't what the market wants today. One of the things the last team got very right was communication and giving a voice to their development team to communicate with customers. If that changes after changing the top team and bringing in a new comms person then it is not entirely unreasonable to feel that it is that new team that have dropped the ball.

 

I want Hornby to succeed, but I just don't have confidence in some of what I see at the moment.

[bart2day]

One important thing on the Hornby Front that I do not think has been mentioned - on the GWR HST and Coaches front are these going to be Gloss like the earlier batch, or matt/satin to go with the IEP's......  The Gloss finish was only upposed to be for the limited edition pack.  Personally as a side, with shops still having stock of the original HST packs (probably because a limited edition of 1000, is more than most production runs....[the Huntley and Palmers Peckett + wagons are 1000 too!]), surprised one of the power cars was not 43093 with its unique livery!  Likewise whilst getting the tooling out, a pack consisting of 43002/43185 would have been a good move.  As people can use them with GWR or First GW Mk3's.......

 

Regards,

 

C.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here C. It seems very strange to me to release another GWR HST pack less than a year since the last batch unless it has a significant difference rather than just new nameplates and new running numbers. It would make more sense to have a Matt/satin finish or a different livery like the Welsh dragon.

 

Furthermore there are still plenty of shops that have the limited edition GWR pack in stock. If a production slot opened up for an HST pack and some coaches why not re-release one of the still very desirable liveries that are now impossible to get hold of in new condition such as EMT/Cross Country or GNER. Now that would have been 'exciting news'. Hornby can be so frustrating at times.