Hornby announcement 8th May

[Horsetan]

Piko has performed a miracle, but there is a feeling in 2018 they too have slowed down, and small price rises have started to creep in.

What they have done though, is drive a coach and horses through the European pricing principles. Second hand prices of competitor products is below Piko new prices, leaving competitors with a huge gulf in price ranges which has to be hurting new sales.

Another thing they haven’t done.. is steam, they’ve stuck with modern image for new toolings.

I think they've left the steam to Gützold.

[farren]

I been looking through different post on Muiltiple sites and there seems a lot who think they re-release of the old track side items is a bit redundant due to what's available on eBay etc. However after watching a program recently, and old toys where mentioned being unsave due to paints and plastics used. Is it such a bad idea especially if being used by younger children.

Edited May 8, 2018 by farren

[John M Upton]

I think it is less the return of the old trackside items which are now so old the instruction sheets were once written in Latin, it is more the 'are they having a laugh?' RRP that they are being marked up at and that they formed almost a third of what was hyped up to be a big announcement which has been pretty universally greeted with bemusement and negative reaction.

 

I do wonder if any Hornby retailer will even bother stocking them given that many from previous production runs are still out there gathering dust whilst even cheaper second hand examples clutter up dog eared cardboard boxes beneath traders stands at model rail shows up and down the land.

Edited May 8, 2018 by John M Upton

[The Stationmaster]

I do find it vaguely ironic that a number of posts contrast Hornby’s business model with those of the nimble retail commissioners. Arguably, and I forget which prior management team, had a similar strategy as the big retailers with the online shop, the discount sales etc. I doubt we’ll see Hattons models, for example, being sold from anywhere other than Widnes.

 

 

This is the Hornby thread but you can see the fruits of Hattons plan . I’ll bet this is response to being starved of product 5 years ago. When Frank Martin and co failed to secure adaquate manufacturing capacity for Hornby. Hattons, and possibly others obviously decided they had to do something to protect and grow their business. Initial models with DJM but now going it alone. Because they also realised that all Hornby did was buy models from manufacturers , why couldn’t they?

 

It is a new market. I do wonder if this is the tipping point . Hattons and the commissioners taking the initiative, the legacy manufacturers in decline and I’m afraid taking the smaller model Railway retailers with them.

 

It’s also a warning shot to Bachmann with their high prices and long gestation periods. Here is a company delivering higher spec for less and in a relatively short timeframe

There are some interesting parallels here as well as some considerable divergences.  Firstly there was nothing wrong with Hornby selling direct - they still do of course - but what was wrong and what upset the retail trade was the way they did it with dumping and selling at retail prices which were lower than their trade prices, not exactly a move to encourage retailer confidence but they did at least put that right and it was put further right when LCD arrived and stopped the bulk fire sales to those retailers who could afford to buy in bulk.

 

There is no doubt that a lot of what Hornby did, particularly in respect of trade terms, caused a major upset with Hattons who found their business model was under attack as a result - added to supply difficulties - so natural for them to follow the Kernow lead of commissioning their own models and this has spread to other retailers as well.  This is where the market has changed and it is one of the threats that Hornby has to contend with while Bachmann have already become proactive by getting back into commissioned tooling work and producing various innovations in their own ranges including some market repositioning - whether that has worked we won't know until their accounts appear in a couple of months time.  But the key thing is that Bachmann have moved and their other advantage is that they too are a relatively small company with shortt internal lines of communication and pretty good customer communication.

 

In the meanwhile Hornby seem to have stumbled and give the impression of not knowing quite where they are going.  Two previous policies which seemed to be working - The Engine Shed and getting into commissioned models (decoration/detail only but reportedly with runs down to 500 if wanted) have been dashed.  the engine Shed has, for want of a better word, been neutered, and the policy on commissioned models charged several times in less than a fortnight leaving customers not only confused but angry, especially if they had done work getting out the detail for decoration commissions.  we saw other changes too in respect of the way Hornby interacts with its market and some have not been particularly encouraging  seeming to me like a step back into a no longer relevant past.  And now we see this latest round of what really has gone off with a whimper when a bang was implied if not actually promised.

 

Hornby clearly have to think about their future but no management should be doing that at the expense of the present - on BR it was called taking your eye off the ball (of running the everyday railway) if the organisation spent its time and energy navel gazing at ideas for reorganisation instead of concentrating on running the railway outside the office door.  Hornby might well be in that situation but what it seems to have done so far is go for negatives while not getting round to the positives.  I honestly can't believe - especially if investment money has been obtained - that all developments being planned for 2019 model year have been canned because of lack of funds while staff who do the work still have to be paid.  So not just that 'nimble' word but also the decision and managerial processes, and that means a positive decision process, that goes with without dropping in 'messages' to the opposite effect.  A properly managed Hornby alert to its markets could no doubt still be as nimble as anybody else and if they continue to sell direct they too get the benefits of that process.

[jjb1970]

Comparing the European and British markets is chalk and cheese. What works in Europe - or indeed what works in the USA - doesn't necessarily work in the UK. Steam outsells modern traction in the UK. It doesn't in North America or Europe - probably because those areas had a lot more 'modern traction' before the UK did. Whatever the reason, it's a fact - hence Hattons have couple of successful steam models under their belt already and only today have announced their first diesel. (CJL)

 

Yes and no. Markets are clearly different but the process of designing and manufacturing a model is the same. Whilst different markets will have different views on multi-tiered ranges the basics of delineating the different tiers and developing product to sit in a particular tier are the same. I think there are some lessons for British OO suppliers if they look to how companies in the North American, European and Japanese markets operate. After all, all Bachmann and Hornby did in the early 00's was adopt the sort of standards for detail, finish and mechanisms that had been the norm in many other markets since the 80's. If a company like Piko can basically decide to ignore what other companies had been doing, figure out what their target market really wanted and provide models to meet that markets expectations whilst undercutting competitor prices by a wide margin and disrupt the European HO market in the way they have then there are lessons there for all model train producers. The head of Piko is a fascinating chap, he is one of those people who can provide some good quotes and stir the pot with a good sound byte whilst also being a very articulate, passionate and thoughtful. He is a good example I think of the difference between managing a business and leading a business.

[JSpencer]

Though there are subtle hints from Paul Isles about the 2019 program, I think we need to consider these separately from Hornby's big surprise announcements.

 

Perhaps instead of Big Surprise it could have been better worded. But adding a few more Pecketts, 2 Duchesses and various GWR high speed trains was a good move.

 

However things like viaducts, station canopies, fencing etc, are the bread and butter Hornby items and the sort of thing they need to carry in stock all the time (you really do not want the stocking of these type of items outsourced!). No one is going to drool and pre-order these sort of things, they will buy them only when the layout calls for them.

Edited May 9, 2018 by JSpencer

[Oldddudders]

I think they've left the steam to Gützold.

Back in the ‘60s, Piko, Gützold, Schicht and others were all in one glorious, mouth-watering catalogue.

[Widnes Model Centre]

Having read every post on this topic:

 

From a small retailer's point of view, Hornby have reintroduced certain trackside accessories which are still sought after and requested in our shop.

 

Looking at not so much in detail but at a quick glance. Hornby Grand Suspension Bridge RRP is £39.99. I see that some retailers have today realigned their existing stocks to reflect the new price. It was a lot more expensive when Hornby last supplied this item.

 

What I would have liked to have seen was 29 Humbrol Acrylic paints being delivered. Humbrol is a brand that is really suffering at the moment and I would guess other retailers are in the same position as us. Once the market leader, Humbrol has out of necessity been superceded by paint, glue etc manufacturers who can actually supply the product. The problems began for Humbrol when production returned to the UK. We have at least 29 missing colours and growing daily.

 

Airfix, another Hornby brand is still very popular and new releases have seen a great clamour with some models sold out on pre-order (sound familiar?) The Airfix range has been decimated in recent years and popular models disappeared from that brand. When I look at our shelves what was once red as far as the shelves stretched is now huddled together in a corner. We have even had to remove some of the shelving strips to make way for other manufacturers. Many of the plastic kits that have replaced the depleted Airfix range are supplied by Bachmann.

 

Previous management at Hornby had cleared vast stocks of Airfix to High Street retailers like Aldi, Home and Bargain etc, selling off valuable assets and massively undercutting shops like ourselves. These bargain Airfix kits still appear from time to time and will no doubt reappear at Christmas until all the stock is exhausted. It was only a few months ago that if you bought a certain daily newspaper you received a free Airfix Spitfire comlete with paints, glue etc. I can see the marketing logic but only through sad eyes.

 

The new Hornby management team have at least given small retailers hope for the future, where once there was despair. I believe we have to give Hornby much more time to dig themselves out of the mire that was brought about by numerous previous regimes. You would not have got me writing that 12 months ago! Their annoucement on the 8th May has not been received well from what I am reading but they do seem to be trying to get it right.

 

Rumours in the trade are that there may well be an announcement very soon regarding Airfix products. That will produce a great deal of frothing possibly cheering from retailers roof tops if the rumours are correct. Good job we didn't throw out those shelf strips!!!

 

I am writing this from the heart and not from my head but I am certain that Hornby will get it right. We have recently renewed the lease on our shop and that is partly based on our faith we are placing with the New Hornby.

 

If Hornby had announced that they were going to produce 30 new products and they were all the same loco with 30 different variations, what would we have thought?

 

Widnes Model Centre

[Dunsignalling]

I think they've left the steam to Gützold.

Are Gutzold still in business? I thought I read a report that they were closing down about five years ago.

 

John

Edited May 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[classy52]

I can't understand why Hornby thinks it makes sense to release yet more Virgin loco hauled mk3s on top of the ones they already announced a few months ago, further flooding the market with more Virgin mk3s (ebay always seems to have them for cheap prices). Unless OxfordRail really mess up the livery on their forthcoming highly detailed loco hauled Virgin mk3s, who is actually going to buy the crude Hornby ones? Bizarrely, the Hornby ones actually have a higher rrp than the OxforRail ones!

 

It's about time Hornby listened to what customers actually want. GNER coaches on ebay have been in great demand for many years now, often going for silly prices, yet Hornby haven't bothered to produce them for a very long time. The Hornby mk3s should also be put into the railroad range selling for about half the cost of the Oxford ones.

 

I also expected to see another run of Virgin East Coast HST coaches and perhaps East Midland Trains HST coaches and the Class 43 twin loco set as well since all of these have completely dried up via Hornby and retailers with the odd ones on eBay going for stupid prices.

I have the NRM Virgin HST Set which I may have to sell due to the fact I can't buy any coaches for it (had other purchase priorities at the time then they sold out) and would have liked to get my hands on the EMT HST set as well if there was a re-run.

Anyway that's just my opinion and if there is no market for further re-runs of these two East Coast/Midlands liveries then fair enough.

Edited May 9, 2018 by classy52

[MarkSG]

It's about time Hornby listened to what customers actually want. GNER coaches on ebay have been in great demand for many years now, often going for silly prices, yet Hornby haven't bothered to produce them for a very long time. The Hornby mk3s should also be put into the railroad range selling for about half the cost of the Oxford ones.

 

Bear in mind that there are significant intellectual property rights in post-privatisation liveries, so Hornby (or any other manufacturer) can't just release models carrying them without agreement from the rights holders. GNER, as a now-defunct operator, may possibly be more awkward in that respect as the owners of the designs have little to gain by allowing models - unlike current, active operators, who benefit from the publicity of having their liveries modelled (and I'm sure that GWR are loving the attention!).

 

I'm not saying that's necessarily the only, or even primary, reason why Hornby haven't re-released the GNER coaches. But I suspect it is a factor, even if only a minor one. And even if it is only a minor consideration, it's the sort of thing that can be the tipping point when deciding which of several possible liveries to produce.

[Fenman]

 

... Once the market leader, Humbrol has out of necessity been superceded by paint, glue etc manufacturers who can actually supply the product. The problems began for Humbrol when production returned to the UK. ...

...

Ouch.

 

Thanks for the rest of your post too. Really interesting perspective.

 

Paul

[phil gollin]

Though there are subtle hints from Paul Isles about the 2019 program,  ......

.

 

I don't think that that can be thought of as a trusted source, can it ?

 

.

[PaulRhB]

Ok the 29 new announcements was a bit of a hype own goal but when you look at it there's stuff that's been asked for. I'm not sure why anyone expected a huge new model binge mid year or the catalogue would be redundant and people would moan about that

The Peckett's, two new liveries on a well regarded model and a new run of the H&P with different identity.

The Paddington IEP, a nice touch with appeal beyond model railways and would people rather it had been an exclusive to Franklin Mint or their like at £700?

As a couple of retailers have noted the accessories are popular items and their longevity supports that.

The coaches to go with HST's does seem to be a recurring puzzle though since the new power cars came out. It was difficult to get enough of the standard ones with the first batch of blue/grey due to equal batches of first class. I suspect their marketing team treat the NRM livery and others such as the Hitachi IEP as stand alone collectibles without the risk of full sets to match each one. I wonder what the data says about that but I suspect a lot end up kept in boxes without a set of coaches to match from the loco collections that come on the market so I guess that supports that choice.

Edited May 9, 2018 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

.

 

I don't think that that can be thought of as a trusted source, can it ?

 

.

So they offer some rather tenuous clues rather than easily solved ones. They need some of the announcements to be a surprise. It's only a problem if you get caught up in the froth. I saw the announcements were 8th May and didn't bother to take any of it seriously until then. Some like speculation as a sport, some don't Most of the expectation was caused by the posts here not their info

[coachmann]

Humbrol looks to be dead in the water. But other brands are suffering too with certain colors like matt black having been on back-order for months.  I was a slow convert to British acrylic water-based model paints, as they were not a patch on American railroad acrylics of the 1980's, but some retailer friends recommended I try various brands. Humbrol came out bottom, so I tend to use Tamiya. However, I do like Humbrol weathering powders....If only I could lay my hands on more colours! It sticks like sh*t to a blanket, as they say in Rome, unlike some other brands,

[dibber25]

I’m very glad to hear someone like yourself say this.

For the last few years we are being persuaded that UK prices should be more like European prices, because we’ve benefitted at manufacturer losses to achieve that lower UK price, when all along markets & costs are the same.

 

At the end of the day a Piko ET22, or a Hornby class 87 or a Hattons class 66 when it comes down to it is an assembly of parts on a Chinese shop floor.. the costs aren’t that different just because of the language on the side of the model... I don’t believe Piko sell more PKP ET22’s than Hornby sells class 87’s or that shipping to Germany is vastly cheaper than the UK.

 

I think What we can agree though.. is Piko has been making what the market they serve has been demanding, and reaped the benefits of doing so... and at a price nearly half that of their competitors same class of models in the same market...

compare the BR120.. Rocos was last BR120 was around a few years back at 200+ Euro RRP.. the new Piko one has an rrp of 139 Euro for a new tooling in 2018... that’s cheaper than any modern image tooling in the UK, including the Hattons 66.

http://www.piko-shop.de/index.php?vw_type=artikel&vw_id=25689 Bargain and it’s “expert” range too, if they can afford this, make money and have sustained this pattern for several years now, whilst having a legacy milestone set of toolings back to the 70’s, a huge amount of established competition in a saturated market, with the addition legacy of being associated of being “cheap communist models” clearly they have done something right, I understand they have supplied to UK suppliers also from their Chinese workshops.

 

The common thread here perhaps to consider is flattening the supply chain, Piko owns a factory, so is a true manufacturer and its own distributor, Hattons has removed the distributor from the supply chain... both must achieve savings, that preserved margin whilst being price competitive, whilst most importantly.. making what the market wants... not sure it’s chalk and cheese when it comes to business sense.

 

Bringing this back to Hornby.. consider this..

£140 rrp

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-4-4-2t-adams-radial-415-class-early-br.html

£104 rrp

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/products/adams-southern-late-sunshine-lettering-3520-or76ar007

Both radials, both same livery, toolings of similar age, and arguably under similar management, made in China.. the only difference I see is ownership of the supply chain... perhaps the exactly 25% difference in price is Hornbys “middle man” margin ?

 

Briefly, I think virtually all comparisons are pointless and misleading. While Oxford and Hornby might have duplicated the same prototype, unless the chassis design is identical and the electrical parts sourced from the same supplier, you can't expect them to have the same costs. We know, from the Oxford thread, that they have had two 'Radial' chassis in production with different flywheel and motor arrangements - presumably aimed at controlling their own costs. Each company will also have very different overheads - reps, admin staff  and senior management all have to be paid for, never mind the very different costs of operating from South Wales and South-East England. (CJL)

[Hroth]

I been looking through different post on Muiltiple sites and there seems a lot who think they re-release of the old track side items is a bit redundant due to what's available on eBay etc. However after watching a program recently, and old toys where mentioned being unsave due to paints and plastics used. Is it such a bad idea especially if being used by younger children.

The main problems with old plastic toys fall into two camps, chemical poisioning and hygiene.  The plastics concerned are the soft types, which contain various plasticisers that, over time, leach out and concerns have been raised over the threat they pose to the physical and mental development of young children.  Paints suitable for soft plastics also exhibit similar problems.  Concerns about hygiene center about the fact that young children put things in their mouths and if a plastic toy cannot be adequately disinfected then it becomes an source of (cross)infection.  Second-hand soft toys are a particular problem in this respect, as do bath toys.

 

In general, old trackside items (even dating back to Triang-Hornby) do not exhibit these physical characteristics or general play modes.  Even flexible plastics like the fencing can be cleaned with ordinary multisurface cleaner and platform components dunked in a mild disinfectant before use if so desired.

 

The only secondhand trackside parts I'd be concerned with would be the really old Triang rubber buildings., which aren't really suitable for anything apart from a serious retro Triang layout, definitely not as a childs plaything!

[Oakydoke]

Completely agree with you on the Class 60 DB Schenker Red

How many of the prototype are in DB Schenker, compared to DB Cargo red, bearing in mind the rail cargo business was split off from the Schenker Logistics business more that 2 years ago and more 60 re-paints have appeared since then?

 

Have any of those carrying the Schenker branding, had it removed since the change?

[phil-b259]

 

Someone here mentioned that they've let an opportunity for a diesel to pass to Hattons.

 

But they haven't

 

Lets look at things logically here - who are Hornbys traditional competitors? The answer is rival manufacturers like Bachmann or Dapol NOT RETAILERS. Bachmann already do a reasonably high spec class 66 model - and as has been proven before with steam designs like the B1, Std4, etc. duplicating someone elses product (unless it is very outdated) simply results in less revenue for both parties.

 

Comparisons with the P class or the 14xx are thus invalid - the former has never been produced in RTR before while the latter is pretty ancient in tooling terms. The economic reasons for bringing back the 14xx by Hornby are the same as they would be for Hornby bringing out an ex Lima 66 - namely to cash in on those whose budgets (or manual dexterity) make the highly detailed models by Bachmann (and now Hattons) unattractive.

 

While modellers of the current railway scene may be excited at the news, they are not the ones taking the risk on this. Given Hornbys current financial situation, spending a wad of cash to duplicate what one of their rival manufacturers already has simply doesn't make economic sense.

[Edwardian]

But they haven't

 

Lets look at things logically here - who are Hornbys traditional competitors? The answer is rival manufacturers like Bachmann or Dapol NOT RETAILERS. Bachmann already do a reasonably high spec class 66 model - and as has been proven before with steam designs like the B1, Std4, etc. duplicating someone elses product (unless it is very outdated) simply results in less revenue for both parties.

 

Comparisons with the P class or the 14xx are thus invalid - the former has never been produced in RTR before while the latter is pretty ancient in tooling terms. The economic reasons for bringing back the 14xx by Hornby are the same as they would be for Hornby bringing out an ex Lima 66 - namely to cash in on those whose budgets (or manual dexterity) make the highly detailed models by Bachmann (and now Hattons) unattractive.

 

While modellers of the current railway scene may be excited at the news, they are not the ones taking the risk on this. Given Hornbys current financial situation, spending a wad of cash to duplicate what one of their rival manufacturers already has simply doesn't make economic sense.

 

The idea that a retailer-commissioner is not a competitor of Red and Blue box strikes me as naive.

 

If you only look over your shoulder at traditional competitors, you'll be brought down by someone you never saw coming.

[woodenhead]

What I think is really sad is every Hornby thread descends into a mess like this.

 

How awful that a company that was picking itself up seems to have gone backwards in its social media skills

[Coryton]

Humbrol looks to be dead in the water. But other brands are suffering too with certain colors like matt black having been on back-order for months.  

 

I wonder if they are having problems with environmental regulations?

 

I think some dyes are traditionally made from somewhat unpleasant chemicals.

 

Not sure about black though.

[PM47079]

There was a sign on the humbrol rack in the hobbycraft store citing factory problems as the problem with the irregular supply. I did get matt black however

[Keep the Faith]

While the R3691 Paddington liveried Hitachi is a nice enough choice, it is probably not going to help attract anyone new to the hobby. 

 

With a £400 price point for a stand-alone train pack this is a serious model for enthusiasts with a lot of cash to splash and an existing layout.

 

The door tampo prints are cute but probably no more than 1cm high.  Very few, if any, young Paddington fans are going to be pestering Mum and Dad for this pack.  I am sure it will sell well but it won't grow the user-base.

 

If a parent wants to buy a Hornby train set for a kid there is nothing modern-era at a mass market price.  R1155 Pendolino is well over £200 and out of stock.  Does Hornby need a RailRoad version of the Hitachi IEP like it had with the Javelin and Eurostar?

 

Hornby Junior seems to be pretty bad looking at the reviews on Amazon.  It is a toy train set that cannot be expanded and seems to be giving parents and kids a pretty dreadful first experience with the Hornby brand.

 

There are signs that Hornby has given up on this being a hobby for children.  Most sets seem to be aimed at the empty-nester or retiree returning to the hobby.  But they are only returning to the hobby because they either had a train set as a child or longed for one.  If they are not recruiting kids it is not a good long term sign for the brand if it lasts beyond the next year in its current form.

 

The Argos, Asda and Tesco etc promotional starter sets will be reaching shelves from July.  It will be telling to see how many there are and what they include.