Hornby announcement 8th May

[Huw Griffiths]

Gosh the warnings from History are right there, yet still we asked a bus company to make a train in the 1980’s.

 

Pacers get me to work and back very reliably...and when the alternative is a 153 for a rush hour service a Pacer seems very attractive.

 

Errm ... yes ... I wonder which established train supplier Class 155 (many later converted to Class 153) came from.

 

 

Gosh the warnings from History are right there, yet still we asked a bus company to make a train in the 1980’s.

 

That idea sounds scarily familiar. I'm not completely sure why * ... .

 

(* Perhaps, I might be - but who's worried?)

 

 

All I know is that I'm not exactly a fan of either design - even less of Hornby's models of them, especially at anything like list price.

 

However, in fairness, secondhand chassis from them do have their uses - as long as they're cheap enough.

 

 

Huw.

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Huw Griffiths

[Coryton]

 

Errm ... yes ... I wonder which established train supplier Class 155 (many later converted to Class 153) came from.

 

It wouldn't matter who made them (unless it was the Gallifrey Shipyards) - trying to get a Pacer-worth of passengers into a single coach doesn't work very well.

 

 

All I know is that I'm not exactly a fan of either design - even less of Hornby's models of them, especially at anything like list price.

 

However, in fairness, secondhand chassis from them do have their uses - as long as they're cheap enough.

 

The Hornby 142 and 153 are made to very different standards. The 142 should be in the Railroad range (if anywhere).

 

The 153 holds its own reasonably well, in my opinion. It doesn't look silly alongside a Realtrack 143. The Hornby 142 does, rather.

[Oakydoke]

One thing for sure though someone who understands customer relations has left Hornby, to be replaced by ?

 

They dare not speak his name.

[Edwardian]

They dare not speak his name.

 

 

He Who Must Not Be Named?

[adb968008]

Errm ... yes ... I wonder which established train supplier Class 155 (many later converted to Class 153) came from.

 

 

There’s a story around why they were converted too.i remember them being pulled from service and seeing them being converted, at of all places Steamport Museum Southport !

[The Stationmaster]

He Who Must Not Be Named?

 

A big smile to celebrate his recent promotion perhaps? (to Marketing and Development Director at Hornby Hobbies)

[Legend]

A big smile to celebrate his recent promotion perhaps? (to Marketing and Development Director at Hornby Hobbies)

Really? How did I miss that ? I thought he was still a consultant

[gwrrob]

A big smile to celebrate his recent promotion perhaps? (to Marketing and Development Director at Hornby Hobbies)

 

I thought he was on the shop floor assembling GWR bogies with extra spokes now.

[Hroth]

He Who Must Not Be Named?

At least this one has a nose!

 

(Our tyrannical overlord has no nose!  How does he smell?  etc....)

[Hroth]

Yep but a twinge nowadays means 20+ pages of moans though

Merely reflecting the number of disgruntled customers.

 

If a company touts for "pre-orders" they really need to be sure that they can deliver in the quoted timeframe.  Especially if slippage is accompanied by increased cost.  Whilst not a Hornby speciality (yet), other manufacturers have moved final prices significantly upward.

[dibber25]

Merely reflecting the number of disgruntled customers.

 

If a company touts for "pre-orders" they really need to be sure that they can deliver in the quoted timeframe.  Especially if slippage is accompanied by increased cost.  Whilst not a Hornby speciality (yet), other manufacturers have moved final prices significantly upward.

 

No one can guarantee a delivery date under the present system. The newcomers always start well but sooner or later they are subject to the same constraints as everyone else. (CJL)

[jjb1970]

In my opinion promised delivery dates are important if you are required to make an up front payment, if you haven't paid anything up front or even committed to a zero cost pre-order then if a model delivery slips then it may be of interest but I wouldn't consider it to be a matter to get too worked up about (although I think most of us are guilty of doing so for certain items). If you have made payment then it's a slightly different matter, one I side step by not really getting involved in projects asking for down payments or staggered payment but that's just my preference.

[tomparryharry]

I thought he was on the shop floor assembling GWR bogies with extra spokes now.

 

I think Hornby have learnt their lessons now. After all, with the market, and competition, any c*ck-up will only help the competitors in.

 

The final arbiter here is your wallet: Don't like? Don't buy! The 'dead cert' type of strokes, such as the Western large tanks are long gone. That said, the chances of seeing Hornby turning out another Western locomotive are fast diminishing. As far as I can tell, the last Western tanks are the 15, 16, & 94xx. Anything after that is a long shot into the dark, with all sorts of  situations with misplaced rivets, etc.

 

There's nothing to stop Hornby reworking their favourites, such as the Dean Single, and some exquisite Clerestory coaches. A nice little open cab Pannier, or, a 6-wheel Peckett would be right on the ball.

 

Happy modelling!

 

Ian.

[Legend]

No one can guarantee a delivery date under the present system. The newcomers always start well but sooner or later they are subject to the same constraints as everyone else. (CJL)

I think it really depends on relationship you have with manufacturer / factory . If you own it and control it even better. Model Railways are no different from any other production . I don’t see many problems in other items that are sourced

[Oldddudders]

No one can guarantee a delivery date under the present system. The newcomers always start well but sooner or later they are subject to the same constraints as everyone else. (CJL)

 

Actually they can. The bind we are all in is that manufacturers/commissioners seek to minimise competition by announcing their new model way in advance of production, a modus operandi that was simply unnecessary decades ago. Just occasionally these days, a model is announced after the container has left China, and there is general rejoicing as it can be bought a few weeks later. I think the Hornby 2-Bil fell into this category, although no doubt there are more recent examples. 

 

I accept it takes a lot of nerve in the present market to hold tight on publicising your new model, but there would be considerable kudos to those who do. 

[jjb1970]

Actually they can. The bind we are all in is that manufacturers/commissioners seek to minimise competition by announcing their new model way in advance of production, a modus operandi that was simply unnecessary decades ago. Just occasionally these days, a model is announced after the container has left China, and there is general rejoicing as it can be bought a few weeks later. I think the Hornby 2-Bil fell into this category, although no doubt there are more recent examples. 

 

I accept it takes a lot of nerve in the present market to hold tight on publicising your new model, but there would be considerable kudos to those who do. 

 

You never know, the ship could get lost or sink. Especially if somebody like me was onboard.

[coachmann]

Dibbers25 livelihood has been closely intertwined with the model railway hobby for a good many years, so who on this forum knows better than he about the in's and out's of the proprietary manufacturers. 

[dibber25]

Actually they can. The bind we are all in is that manufacturers/commissioners seek to minimise competition by announcing their new model way in advance of production, a modus operandi that was simply unnecessary decades ago. Just occasionally these days, a model is announced after the container has left China, and there is general rejoicing as it can be bought a few weeks later. I think the Hornby 2-Bil fell into this category, although no doubt there are more recent examples. 

 

I accept it takes a lot of nerve in the present market to hold tight on publicising your new model, but there would be considerable kudos to those who do. 

 

Minimising competition is essential, particularly for the smaller companies now commissioning direct. So expect to see lots more early announcements, and probably lots more speculative delivery dates which turn out not to be met. Early announcements give two companies thinking along the same lines the chance to 'change horses'. Duplication would potentially be a disaster for small commissioning companies, small manufacturers and those companies whose managements keep a close eye on where the money is coming from. Yes, you can minimise disappointing your customers by not announcing a model until you have the container in the car park, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the factory has met a promised delivery date. It just means the public didn't know what the promised delivery date was. The 2BIL was announced pretty late on, but it was  the first of a new concept (remember Design Clever?) reduced-time assembly from a factory seeking to impress. You only get that once. And it was several years ago. Things are different now. Even those companies who own their own manufacturing facilities are struggling, and often failing, to meet anticipated delivery dates. I stand by my original statement that no one can GUARANTEE delivery dates these days. Look at Rapido's videos from China - there's one where JS is looking for possible factory sites 350miles from Dongguan because of the problems and costs of getting models made in that area (which is where all the model railway factories are apparently concentrated). 

It takes a lot of nerve in the present market to commission a new model. That nerve is steadied, to some degree, once the announcement is made and the pre-orders start coming in. With small runs, high up-front investment costs and people sticking their necks well out to get these models produced, they cannot be expected to sit tight and say nothing for two years, just because that gestation period might turn out to be more than two years for reasons that are beyond their control, on the other side of the world. (CJL)

[Mike Storey]

Minimising competition is essential, particularly for the smaller companies now commissioning direct. So expect to see lots more early announcements, and probably lots more speculative delivery dates which turn out not to be met. Early announcements give two companies thinking along the same lines the chance to 'change horses'. Duplication would potentially be a disaster for small commissioning companies, small manufacturers and those companies whose managements keep a close eye on where the money is coming from. Yes, you can minimise disappointing your customers by not announcing a model until you have the container in the car park, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the factory has met a promised delivery date. It just means the public didn't know what the promised delivery date was. The 2BIL was announced pretty late on, but it was  the first of a new concept (remember Design Clever?) reduced-time assembly from a factory seeking to impress. You only get that once. And it was several years ago. Things are different now. Even those companies who own their own manufacturing facilities are struggling, and often failing, to meet anticipated delivery dates. I stand by my original statement that no one can GUARANTEE delivery dates these days. Look at Rapido's videos from China - there's one where JS is looking for possible factory sites 350miles from Dongguan because of the problems and costs of getting models made in that area (which is where all the model railway factories are apparently concentrated). 

It takes a lot of nerve in the present market to commission a new model. That nerve is steadied, to some degree, once the announcement is made and the pre-orders start coming in. With small runs, high up-front investment costs and people sticking their necks well out to get these models produced, they cannot be expected to sit tight and say nothing for two years, just because that gestation period might turn out to be more than two years for reasons that are beyond their control, on the other side of the world. (CJL)

 

And yet Auccuracraft have just managed to get a model from measurements to shelves in a mere 8 months - admittedly just a wagon, but a very highly detailed one. If it matches their Irish Rail equivalents in detail and accuracy, they seem to have found a way to get to market quickly using Chinese production. One aspect (that Andy's interview with them at Rails) revealed is that they do their own CADs in-house, unusually these days, which according to them, cuts out a lot of the initial delays. But they are so far not planning to reveal their plans in advance, despite having almost duplicated a DJM product being developed in parallel - and a little further off from production - so your point about costly duplication is very real (as happened with the Class 71). They seem to have obtained a very reliable production partner, which others might envy. But they have also said that they are are now seeking views of British modellers as to whether they would prefer their current practice of announcing only when models are imminent, or whether we would prefer announcements way in advance, with no guaranteed delivery timescale. Interesting that they feel the need to check that.

 

Kernow seem (according to others on here) to have shortened their time from announcement to shelves, by cutting out their previous use of a middle man, as have Hattons, both with locomotives this time. But we do not yet know (publicly - there are a few on here who seem to have better inside info) as to why that has been possible. You may well be right that each of them has a honeymoon period (as did Rapido, who are now stuck in a whole host of delayed models, mainly North American) but then fall into the same problems as the rest.

 

What is evident is that there is, as yet, no agreed way to obtain or announce new models. Each of these companies is risking large amounts to suit their particular way of doing things. Quite how much Hornby's financial interest in Oxford, and their unique production capability, will improve their own fortunes is something we must await in due course.

 

Meanwhile, Bachmann have kept quiet......

[woodenhead]

Quite possibly, however, compare their online presence to Bachmann Europe who have only a rudimentary website and no Instagram, Twitter, etc.  Occasionally, something is better than nothing!

But at least they are consistent in their approach and don't make big noises that end up nothing like as such

[robmcg]

...

 

Meanwhile, Bachmann have kept quiet......

 

Haven't they put back most or all of their Atlantics?

 

I'm of the (uninformed) opinion that getting production slots in China is more difficult and expensive than ever, and that the Hornby Lord Nelson might be the last main line large steam model to be produced for sale in the UK at around the £150 mark. 

 

My interests lie in the steam era so I apologise if that seems rather 'tunnel-visioned'. When I look at the vast number of excellent models Hornby have produced in the last decade I can see why Hornby has been able to reduce capital spending, and not dump excess stock. We are certainly not lacking in excellent models.

 

The problem for Hornby and others is finding buyers with £200 to spend on new models, when s/h a very similar model can be bought for nearer £100.

[Oldddudders]

And yet Auccuracraft 

 

Accurascale? A couple in Church Stretton who run Accucraft UK might be getting concerned here. 

[Mike Storey]

Accurascale? A couple in Church Stretton who run Accucraft UK might be getting concerned here. 

 

Keep up at the back there!!!

 

My 32mm main wagon supplier (when I cannot be bothered to build another kit) are perfectly safe......for now.

[jjb1970]

I guess a lot depends on how quickly you can get a product onto the shelves, from initial decision to go ahead with development. And that will depend to some extent on resource availability and design and development capability. A lot of the delays we see seem to be primarily in the design stages rather than at the manufacturing stage, and at the design stage it should be much more within the control of the model company. Personally I think models should be announced when they're within 12 months of delivery.

[Mike Storey]

Haven't they put back most or all of their Atlantics?

 

I'm of the (uninformed) opinion that getting production slots in China is more difficult and expensive than ever, and that the Hornby Lord Nelson might be the last main line large steam model to be produced for sale in the UK at around the £150 mark. 

 

My interests lie in the steam era so I apologise if that seems rather 'tunnel-visioned'. When I look at the vast number of excellent models Hornby have produced in the last decade I can see why Hornby has been able to reduce capital spending, and not dump excess stock. We are certainly not lacking in excellent models.

 

The problem for Hornby and others is finding buyers with £200 to spend on new models, when s/h a very similar model can be bought for nearer £100.

 

It could be that we would share that concern. And yet, and yet......Hattons have just managed to announce a very up-specced Class 66 (not a kettle, I know) for only 150 sovs, about the same as the age old moulds from the same old, same old. (Piko have done much the same with mainland Europe models in the last year or two). There would be appear to be some innovation left to tackle the inexorable rises we have lately seen.