ECML franchise to be broucht back under Public Ownership

[Joseph_Pestell]

The return of the title "LNER"!

 

That's what you get from a progressive government. It was what John Major always wanted.

[Steamport Southport]

How about Scotrail as a modern classic? Freightliner? Chiltern? SWT wasn't bad either, bit toothpaste like, but you could say that about NSE livery. All good, decent names too.

It can be done, without harking back to a romantic, chocolate box vision of past times.

 

Are they though?

 

They were only liked due to refreshing which was an era of awful drab and dirty trains. People forget how horrendous BR blue and grey looked after a short while in service. Faded blue and grime brown halfway up the sides from the brake dust. The grey part was usually so dirty you could write your name or football team on it.

 

 

It seems to me the ones that are looking at things through rose-tinted glasses are those that want to go back to BR days. When the railways were a national joke and hardly used. They really were terrible.

 

How short peoples memories are....

 

 

 

Jason

[Joseph_Pestell]

Why not call it 'East Coast Joint Stock'?

 

No?

 

Ok...

 

Still, I always thought this one looked good:

And this...

 

Green does not seem to work well as a colour on the 66s. The Brunswick Green "Evening Star" is dreadful. I was not a great fan of large logo blue but that looks great on a 66.

[meil]

Let's hope it remains permanently in State ownership this time. It worked well that way previously and it will provide an excellent yardstick from which to measure the performance of the other franchisees. And the other franchisees can, equally, provide a yardstick for monitoring the performance of the State owned service.

 

Never waste a crisis!

 

...R

It always was in State ownership it's now also in State management.

[31A]

I'm not clear where this leaves GTR, Trans Pennine Express, Cross Country, Northern, Hull Trains, Grand Central, EMT and various freight operators, as users of the ECML (some of whom run more trains on it than Inter City East Coast does)?

[Coryton]

It seems to me the ones that are looking at things through rose-tinted glasses are those that want to go back to BR days. When the railways were a national joke and hardly used. They really were terrible.

 

How short peoples memories are....

 

I'll agree that rail usage has gone up dramatically since privatisation, and we'll never know what it would have been now under British Rail if they had continued to exist with the level of funding the railways get now (after all BR brought in market vs distance based pricing and large-scale availability of fixed-train advance purchase fares, not the bus companies who took over the railways)

 

But describing the railways as "hardly used" under BR seems like an exaggeration to me.

 

Some things were worse under BR, and some were better.

[caradoc]

I'm not clear where this leaves GTR, Trans Pennine Express, Cross Country, Northern, Hull Trains, Grand Central, EMT and various freight operators, as users of the ECML (some of whom run more trains on it than Inter City East Coast does)?

 

Indeed, and this is the major issue whenever giving the infrastructure to a Train Operator (TOC) is proposed; What about all the other Operators ? And, although the TOCs are quite happy to point out that more delays are caused to their services by Network Rail than themselves (ignoring the hugely differing responsibilities that each has for actually running the railway), I have never been convinced that any TOC really wants to take on those responsibilities (and the blame when it goes wrong).

 

Finally, I have no strong feelings about Mr Branson either way, however he has his own Carribean island, which I don't suppose any of us on RMWeb does !

[Hobby]

Virgin did not run the East Coast service, Stagecoach did. Virgin's 5% was no more than a token amount so the name could be used.

Check out the Beardy one's "companies". Most have little actual Virgin money tied up in them.

 

10% I think, but the key as far as SC were concerned is that they could use Virgin branding and the public kudos that came with it. Also i suspect that due to the branding Branson would have had a lot more input than that 10% stake would suggest.

[Coryton]

It always was in State ownership it's now also in State management.

 

Though to some extent you could say that of all the operators now, particularly where management contracts are in place.

 

I'm not clear where this leaves GTR, Trans Pennine Express, Cross Country, Northern, Hull Trains, Grand Central, EMT and various freight operators, as users of the ECML (some of whom run more trains on it than Inter City East Coast does)?

 

Indeed. The government speech says: "working with Network Rail to bring together the teams operating the track and trains on the LNER network." but doesn't seem to acknowledge that several operators are involved.

 

It also says: "And the lessons of the financial failure of the East Coast Mainline are already being learnt."

 

I wonder what has been learnt this time that wasn't when this happened before?

[E3109]

You're coming across as a wee bit bitter and twisted there!

Your radar appears to be finely tuned sir.

Yes. Correct.

Nowt to do with Rancid Units displacing mk3s, as unpleasant as they are the AM90s fulfil their purpose and especially so given their low MPC figures.

 

My bitterness commenced the day that skank was given free rein to do what he likes on OUR WCML.

[The Stationmaster]

Grayling made a big play about bring track and trains closer together under future ECML plans.

Could LNER be the prelude to separating out the ECML infrastructure from NR, to form a joint rail and train operating company, that could be sold off, lock stock and barrel?

 

I sincerely hope not.  East Coast trunk or LNER, or  whatever you happen to call them are a comparatively minor player on the totality of the ECML when it comes to number of paths and use of infrastructure.  It would be a disaster for the route if some halfwit put them in charge of the infrastructure because it wouldn't be long before other operators were suffering the effects.  Look what happened last time it was under direct management control as pointed out so ably by Barry O (quoted below).

 

I wonder too if any of the children who dreamt up the LNER name realise that among the Big Four the LNER was by far the poorest financial performer,  hmm - there seems to be something of a theme in that phrase doesn't there.

 

 

See DaFT had already spent our money on a new logo....

 

And the last time "we" ran East coast "we" made money by cutting maintenance to the bone and ran a carp service, on which, the staff were not a happy crew.

 

But why do we continue to "own" network fail, who are absolutely useless and their failing in part have led to all of this. In a normal contract Network Fail would have lost billions in liquidated damages across all of the franchises. But, as it is state owned we just pay for their inability to deliver the rail infrastructure...

 

Baz

[Bob Reid]

I'm not clear where this leaves GTR, Trans Pennine Express, Cross Country, Northern, Hull Trains, Grand Central, EMT and various freight operators, as users of the ECML (some of whom run more trains on it than Inter City East Coast does)?

 

None of which are the principle operators of the East Coast services as created under privatisation from ICEC nor operate identical services or stations on the route. The only change is likely to be the management company they may have to deal with - Arup.

[The Stationmaster]

Are they though?

 

They were only liked due to refreshing which was an era of awful drab and dirty trains. People forget how horrendous BR blue and grey looked after a short while in service. Faded blue and grime brown halfway up the sides from the brake dust. The grey part was usually so dirty you could write your name or football team on it.

 

 

It seems to me the ones that are looking at things through rose-tinted glasses are those that want to go back to BR days. When the railways were a national joke and hardly used. They really were terrible.

 

How short peoples memories are....

 

 

 

Jason

 

If we did go back to BR days it would be a darned sight better managed than it is in the hands of DafT and finger poking politicos.  Rail nationalisation with the BRB structure in place kept the politicos at arms length (most of the time) and DafT remained firmly in their box instead of trying to run it as they are doing now.  But you can't recreate the past - it has gone and any sort of so called re-nationalisation will be a dog's breakfast but probably lacking in dog food because the idiots will forget to have ordered any.  We already effectively have a nationalised passenger railway in Britain and while it has some good parts it also has the dead hand of the Civil Service wreaking havoc and seemingly few people, if any, within NR or even the franchises with gonads to put the amateurs in their place.

[Bob Reid]

...

 

I wonder too if any of the children who dreamt up the LNER name realise that among the Big Four the LNER was by far the poorest financial performer,  hmm - there seems to be something of a theme in that phrase doesn't there.

Late and never early....

[31A]

None of which are the principle operators of the East Coast services as created under privatisation from ICEC nor operate identical services or stations on the route. The only change is likely to be the management company they may have to deal with - Arup.

 

 

It's not the interface with the ECML train operator (whoever that may be) that worries me; I was involved in doing that in my last job on the railway, and we got along pretty well, but the vertical integration which is hinted at (although not very fully explained) which seems as though it could result in ICEC being given priority over other users, which as I said, in some cases run more trains and carry more passengers over the route than ICEC does, and in any case under the present system are entitled to expect a level playing field.

 

Shades of Kinnaber Junction ...

[Purley Oaks]

The VTEC ticket buying website is excellent imho; and you get Virgin Flying Club or Nectar points, too, woop-de-doo!

 

Having used the line between Edinburgh and KX a lot over the years, liked InterCity until the government began to purposely run it down, GNER was pretty good, NXEC awful (they started the decline in catering standards!), East Coast was an improvement possibly because they started the free booze & food thing for 1st class travellers and I preferred the philosophy, VTEC were fine - liked the jumbled liveries for the first year or so.

 

Will DafT learn from all this? On current experience, probably not, but you never know.

 

I'll still travel between Edinburgh and London by train, and want a safe, fast, reliable, comfortable service with fewer breakdowns, whichever company is running it.

 

Mal

Edited May 16, 2018 by Purley Oaks

[Robin2]

It always was in State ownership it's now also in State management.

Thank you. That is what I intended to say - and I suspect you were aware of that.

 

...R

[Reorte]

Having used the line between Edinburgh and KX a lot over the years, liked InterCity until the government began to purposely run it down, GNER was pretty good, NXEC awful (they started the decline in catering standards!), East Coast was an improvement possibly because they started the free booze & food thing for 1st class travellers and I preferred the philosophy, VTEC were fine - liked the jumbled liveries for the first year or so.

The only time I used East Coast was with a cheap first class ticket from Edinburgh to Inverness. A pretty pleasant route anyway, and with the free booze thrown in and a comfortable 1st class MkIII seat and table to myself I could've done with the journey being a bit longer.

[lmsforever]

Its going to be interesting reading Roger Ford in Modern Railways next issue then we will see the truth and understand what has hapened,last month the DFT came out as a big problem but have got away without blame.The ECML seems to be a poisoned chalice for operators ,will anyone make a go of it ?

[Clearwater]

The issue you get with this franchise is that the operating margin is comparatively high but adding in a high fixed cost of franchise payments (this one is in surplus) creates a situation where a small change in the top line wipes out the operator’s profit at the bottom. If you take fares and grow at RPI plus x with the c predicated on other infra improvements, this exacerbates the financial pressure. A Gov owned company with no fixed payments to make to treasury may not be a good comparable. As an aside, there are a few news stories around about TfL’s finances where they have assumed a certain level of tube and bus income that may or may not be realised. They will then have to decide what spending to cut to meet their budget (same underlying dynamic of assuming a level of fare growth that’s not guaranteed.)

 

I’d be interested to see a proper analysis by the NAO showing the revenues, operating costs and net payments to central Gov. whether it is more efficiently operated by the public or private sector will be to see whether the operating margin (fares less direct costs exc. track access/train leasing) improve or not. It’s a more complex picture than some simplistic statements imply.

[woodenhead]

Good.

Now let's unstitch that man and his dreadful PR Machine from our railway once and for all.

He ruined the WCML, but hey when you're having a sh*t at least the toilet talks to you (in the most patronising manner).

 

Rather leave the door open and be caught with my keks down, than go through that bollox ever again.

 

Any respect I had left for that fella evaporated when he was wandering about the line in Grayrigg without an HV vest.

If it were me or anyone else we would've been form oned for that and rightly so.

 

 

Your radar appears to be finely tuned sir.

Yes. Correct.

Nowt to do with Rancid Units displacing mk3s, as unpleasant as they are the AM90s fulfil their purpose and especially so given their low MPC figures.

 

My bitterness commenced the day that skank was given free rein to do what he likes on OUR WCML.

 

You need to unstitch the WCML from the Beardy chap too - he about as close to running the service as Chris Grayling is.

 

I actually quite like the WCML - Pendolinos do their task admirably, trains from Manchester every 15 minutes, advance fares from £20 and they are punctual.

[009 micro modeller]

It's not the interface with the ECML train operator (whoever that may be) that worries me; I was involved in doing that in my last job on the railway, and we got along pretty well, but the vertical integration which is hinted at (although not very fully explained) which seems as though it could result in ICEC being given priority over other users, which as I said, in some cases run more trains and carry more passengers over the route than ICEC does, and in any case under the present system are entitled to expect a level playing field.

 

Shades of Kinnaber Junction ...

If it was done in the same way as the station management then the suburban operator would end up managing the infrastructure. The only way this could work is to have a small number of very large vertically integrated franchises on long contracts with responsibility for intercity, local and freight services in their region - oh wait, I just described something close to the Big Four system. Obviously splitting by region could make Cross country a bit rubbish though.

[APOLLO]

LNER is a fine re-branding as far as I'm concerned, London & North Eastern Railway - states exactly just what it actually is.

 

Livery - well THIS has never been beaten as far as I'm concerned

 

 

As to Branson - I'm not a fan. The Pendolino's on the WCML (to me) are quite OK though, I don't particularly like new white livery though.

 

The trouble is with franchising is that it privatises profit and socializes losses. I hope the LNER does well (as it seemed to do last time it was publically run).

 

I bought some shares this morning in a train stick on vinyl manufacturing & printing company - up £1 already !!!

 

Brit15

[melmerby]

There seem to be a lot on here who believe the Beardy one has a lot to do with the day to day running of "His" trains.

AFAIK he doesn't, he is the publicity face of the passenger train concessions (I do not accept them as franchises in the normal sense.)

 

Many still see him as a slightly romantic maverick entrepreneur.

He was once but hasn't been for a long time, more likely counting the royalty payments from businesses using his trademark.

 

Keith

[Mallard60022]

LNER is a fine re-branding as far as I'm concerned, London & North Eastern Railway - states exactly just what it actually is.

 

Livery - well THIS has never been beaten as far as I'm concerned

 

 

As to Branson - I'm not a fan. The Pendolino's on the WCML (to me) are quite OK though, I don't particularly like new white livery though.

 

The trouble is with franchising is that it privatises profit and socializes losses. I hope the LNER does well (as it seemed to do last time it was publically run).

 

I bought some shares this morning in a train stick on vinyl manufacturing & printing company - up £1 already !!!

 

Brit15

That smelly thing is passing Wellingborough on the Midland.................................................