Rapido LB&SCR Class E1 0-6-0T

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

the D1 and E1 designs were carefully considered to meet the requirements of the network as a whole, which they did for many years, far longer than any 14xx, which they pre-dated by around 60 years, except the preserved ones.

 

Had the poster said 517s, they might have been on more secure grounds, though even so the operational requirements were rather different, I think. At least the 517s were contemporary with Stroudley's engines, even if they lacked his key card: standardisation.

 

As for the names, I'm afraid I dislike the implied chauvinism in favouring the Ds over the Es. If I lived in Stockwell, I would prefer to dream of Calvados.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Compound2632

[phil gollin]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Had the poster said 517s, they might have been on more secure grounds, though even so the operational requirements were rather different, I think. At least the 517s were contemporary with Stroudley's engines, even if they lacked his key card: standardisation.

 

As for the names, I'm afraid I dislike the implied chauvinism in favouring the Ds over the Es. If I lived in Stockwell, I would prefer to dream of Calvados.

.

 

517's were not Southern, and a large number of Southern names is better than a fantasy name.

 

At present this thread is about a proposed E1, which would be a useful addition to Southern stock.  I sincerely hope that the project goes ahead as at present there seem to be sufficient Sothern adherents/collectors that there would be a suitable market for them (cross fingers).   AFTER the E1, then hopefully Rapido could consider a D-1, but that is their commercial decision.

 

.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

517's were not Southern, and a large number of Southern names is better than a fantasy name.

 

A previous poster compared the D1s to the 14xxs; I am fully aware that the 517 and 14xx classes were Great Western engines. 

 

Calvados is no fantasy name, it is a department of France and was the name carried by Class E1 No. 100. I supposed that the logic behind the choice of continental European names for Brighton locomotives was that they were places that could be reached from Victoria, by way of Newhaven.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Had the poster said 517s, they might have been on more secure grounds, though even so the operational requirements were rather different, I think. At least the 517s were contemporary with Stroudley's engines, even if they lacked his key card: standardisation.

 

As for the names, I'm afraid I dislike the implied chauvinism in favouring the Ds over the Es. If I lived in Stockwell, I would prefer to dream of Calvados.

When the locomotives were first named, I doubt that most residents of Stockwell would have been aware of the existence of Calvados....

Edited November 12, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

When the locomotives were first named, I doubt that most residents of Stockwell would have been aware of the existence of Calvados....

 

And vice-versa! Although to the keen observer, I dare say the Brighton line could have been a lesson in geography.

[jamieb]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Had the poster said 517s, they might have been on more secure grounds, though even so the operational requirements were rather different, I think. At least the 517s were contemporary with Stroudley's engines, even if they lacked his key card: standardisation.

 

As for the names, I'm afraid I dislike the implied chauvinism in favouring the Ds over the Es. If I lived in Stockwell, I would prefer to dream of Calvados.

My Finecast E1 is Calvados so I hope the RTR  green one has a different name! 

[Oldddudders]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

When the locomotives were first named, I doubt that most residents of Stockwell would have been aware of the existence of Calvados....

Or what the eponymous beverage tastes like!

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, jamieb said:

My Finecast E1 is Calvados so I hope the RTR  green one has a different name! 

 

The original MR proposal was No. 127 Poitiers in goods green, along with No. 97 Honfleur in improved engine green.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

When the locomotives were first named, I doubt that most residents of Stockwell would have been aware of the existence of Calvados....

LBSC D1 no 19 was built in 1875… June..

 

had it been built maybe as few as 6 months earlier, its name might have been the somewhat grander… California.

 

Legend has it, the station / place name was changed as the local luggage was turning up at Southampton docks for export.

So Belmont it is, and still is.

 

I used a 14xx as it was a convenient comparison, It wasn't meant to be a parallel timeslice but agree a 517 would be better, but still I think my point got across.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by adb968008

[burgundy]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Calvados is no fantasy name, it is a department of France and was the name carried by Class E1 No. 100. I supposed that the logic behind the choice of continental European names for Brighton locomotives was that they were places that could be reached from Victoria, by way of Newhaven.

I have heard the suggestion that the choice of continental names for the E tanks was to promote destinations which could be reached via the LBSCR's continental partners and their cross channel services. 

My preference has always been for No 110.

Best wishes 

Eric 

Photo by Andy York @AY Mod

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by burgundy

[jamieb]

1 hour ago, burgundy said:

I have heard the suggestion that the choice of continental names for the E tanks was to promote destinations which could be reached via the LBSCR's continental partners and their cross channel services. 

My preference has always been for No 110.

Best wishes 

Eric 

Photo by Andy York @AY Mod

 

I'd love to see the prototype restored to that livery and running on the Bluebell 

[Wickham Green too]

On 11/11/2021 at 21:12, adb968008 said:

..... i actually think a D1 would sell better than the E1, and compete with the Terrier.

As the more numerous of the two classes, the D1 SHOULD outsell the E1 .......... but it doesn't have the Isle of Widget factor to boost interest !

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

As the more numerous of the two classes, the D1 SHOULD outsell the E1 .......... but it doesn't have the Isle of Widget factor to boost interest !

Also from the RTR angle, There is no scope for D1s in BR liveries; the class became extinct in 1950 with none having received their BR numbers.

 

John

[adb968008]

59 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Also from the RTR angle, There is no scope for D1s in BR liveries; the class became extinct in 1950 with none having received their BR numbers.

 

John

Pretty certain i’d take a bet Hornby has sold more non BR than BR terriers.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

... no scope for D1s in BR liveries; the class became extinct in 1950 ...

Actually the last D1 worked until 1956 - but I can't imagine there's a humungous demand for models of 'James Fryers' outside a tiny patch of Lancashire.

[Steamport Southport]

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Pretty certain i’d take a bet Hornby has sold more non BR than BR terriers.

 

And there's a flying pig....

 

Very doubtful. You can still get the LBSC, SECR and LSWR versions. Even the Centenary one is still available if you look for it. 

 

When it comes to BR they out sell pre grouping by many times. It's by far the biggest selling era followed by "Modern", then Big Four. I doubt pre grouping even accounts for 5% of the market.

 

 

 

PS I thought this was the E1 thread not a wishlist.....

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

31 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

And there's a flying pig....

 

Very doubtful. You can still get the LBSC, SECR and LSWR versions. Even the Centenary one is still available if you look for it. 

 

When it comes to BR they out sell pre grouping by many times. It's by far the biggest selling era followed by "Modern", then Big Four. I doubt pre grouping even accounts for 5% of the market.

 

 

 

PS I thought this was the E1 thread not a wishlist.....

 

 

 

Jason

Your not looking historically.. use modelraildatabase back to the 90’s at how many lbsc versions vs BR ones made.

 

yes its an E1 thread, but there isnt much news about an E1 and a D1 has commonalities.

 

Ask yourself why SER, LSWR (and GWR and KESR versions arent that popular, I dont think its hard to figure out), but the relation between LBSC livery on Terrier and D1 still stands, and that doesnt stack up to the E1, to return to point.

 

it might be worth noting that the major tender engine releases of the last year and this…(SECR D1, LNWR 2-4-0, Caley 0-6-0, NER railcar, W1, P2 are putting BR steam liveries into the minority… the days of the plain BR black steam engine are numbered I think.. its saturated and becoming mundane.

 

anyway, I voted.. LBSC for me.

https://form.jotform.com/212643417594055

Edited November 13, 2021 by adb968008

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

it might be worth noting that the major tender engine releases of the last year and this…(SECR D1, LNWR 2-4-0, Caley 0-6-0, NER railcar, W1, P2

 

Not quite sure how the railcar snuck in there! But it's an interesting point.

 

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

the days of the plain BR black steam engine are numbered I think.. its saturated and becoming mundane.

 

Well, a good many of them were superheated!

 

It remains the case that for steam era modelling, ex-Midland lines in BR days are the only place and period that can be modelled with anything approaching historical accuracy using solely RTR equipment.

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pretty certain i’d take a bet Hornby has sold more non BR than BR terriers.

But there's always been a perceived risk in the RTR trade, usually avoided, in producing locomotives that disappeared without receiving at least one BR livery. Those became relied upon for the "bread and butter" sales that recovered tooling costs as the grouping era gradually ceased to do so. 

 

I think that's changing, but the early choices will be iconic (and probably, preserved) prototypes such as the Bachmann/Rails LNWR Precedent. Neither applies to the D1, so it's likely to be a fair way down anybody's "to-do" list. 

 

Terriers may be a bit exceptional in that, for some, they have become a collecting "niche" of their own, quite independent of their owners' other interests....

 

John

[dibber25]

Check the Model Rail J70s. BR-liveried ones are the ones that have sold out. The same with the USAs and the Sentinels and these even had second runs of BR liveries. (CJL)

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Check the Model Rail J70s. BR-liveried ones are the ones that have sold out. 

 

Ah, but there wasn't a Great Eastern version made...

[dibber25]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, but there wasn't a Great Eastern version made...

....and I bet that you can guess why. (CJL)

[Covkid]

On 13/11/2021 at 22:38, adb968008 said:

it might be worth noting that the major tender engine releases of the last year and this…(SECR D1, LNWR 2-4-0, Caley 0-6-0, NER railcar, W1, P2 are putting BR steam liveries into the minority… the days of the plain BR black steam engine are numbered I think.. its saturated and becoming mundane.

 

 

Not sure I would agree with that.  If any manufacturer cared to release a Midland 2F or LNWR "Cauliflower" in LMS and particularly BR black I imagine there would be a healthy clamour of purchasers.

 

Hint hint 
Rapido Andy !!!!!

Edited November 16, 2021 by Covkid

[mdvle]

from the just completed live stream, all of the E1 options are currently polling well, and for anyone who hasn't done the poll they encouraged anyone interested to do so.

[Edwardian]

On 15/11/2021 at 21:36, dibber25 said:

....and I bet that you can guess why. (CJL)

 

Market research, which only tells you what people think they'll want, not what they'll actually buy if something (more) attractive is released. Given that you didn't choose to make a GER version, we'll never have the data to know whether it would have sold.

 

However, these days a pre-Grouping in-service liveried version of a new RTR loco release is de rigeur.  You can draw what conclusions you want from that.