Rapido LB&SCR Class E1 0-6-0T

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

They lasted into BR days though. I serious doubt they would have been made otherwise.

 

Agreed; also an iconic loco for the S&DJR in the BR era, which I'm sure helped. This is also why we see so many from the Southern constituents.

[Andy Hayter]

16 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

I would agree. There is only one thing a manufacturer cant afford to do - that is having stock sitting on shelves and not selling. People will always be cautious as a result.

 

Interestingly our teams "wants" list includes quite a number of pre-grouping items :-) 

 

I fully agree Andy and no one would want a producer to endanger his business by bad decisions but there does seem to be something of a shift towards pre-grouping that manufacturers have not fully signed on to.

[rapidoandy]

I’m not sure. I think all the major players are signed on - as most have produced at least one pre-grouping loco in recent years. I think there have been more pre-grouping releases in recent years than there have been modern image or multiple unit releases..

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

They lasted into BR days though. I serious doubt they would have been made otherwise.

 

 

 

the LNWR Precedents were all withdrawn and scrapped before nationalisation yet that hasn't stopped rails from producing several models of the class.

 

Yes Harwicke survives as part of the national collection and was a key driver for the model being made, but the fact still remains that you cannot have a BR liveried version which, according to you is apparently a 'must' in the RTR model world.

 

Still, if it sells well it might prompt someone to have a go at Gladstone - another class withdrawn before WW2 - yet a preserved example exists in the national collection.

[Andy Hayter]

In fairness the statement was - lasted until BR days - not obtained  BR livery or ran in BR service.  It did run in preservation (national collection) in BR days and so fits the bill IMHO.

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

the fact still remains that you cannot have a BR liveried version which, according to you is apparently a 'must' in the RTR model world.

 

Oh but you can, you can:

[Compound2632]

Hmm. On further reflection, I wonder if that's why Lucknow is the one that's sold out? The undiscriminating not paying close enough attention to the product description?

[Edwardian]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

the LNWR Precedents were all withdrawn and scrapped before nationalisation yet that hasn't stopped rails from producing several models of the class.

 

Yes Harwicke survives as part of the national collection and was a key driver for the model being made, but the fact still remains that you cannot have a BR liveried version which, according to you is apparently a 'must' in the RTR model world.

 

Still, if it sells well it might prompt someone to have a go at Gladstone - another class withdrawn before WW2 - yet a preserved example exists in the national collection.

 

That's the point I was groping towards earlier, but you've got there. Main range pre-Grouping in-service condition models are sometimes produced 'on the back of' preserved locos, there is now a, ahem, precedent for doing so notwithstanding that there was no BR career. 

 

Pre-Grouping RTR was almost non-existent when I started on RMWeb (I mean here models accurate to the pre-Grouping liveries often seen on preserved locos), and now we are debating the whens and ifs of the next logical step, the market having already come a long way.  All things are possible in time, but the process is necessarily incremental.  

 

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

I think Hardwicke strikes a chord with many people because of the 'Railway Race to the North' and all that, in which it was a key player. Tales of railway derring-do in a different age, and on a railway route that conquered tough landscapes. 

 

Gladstone, by contrast, merely ran over what other BR Regions' railwaymen in my hearing referred to as a 'tramtrack' between London and Brighton. A route that everyone knew could be traversed in only 4 minutes! A pity.

[phil gollin]

.

 

NOT every pre-grouping railway can hope to have even one loco produced in their colours, there are just too many.    What any loco manufacturer need to think about is which liveries AND WHY will sell ?

 

One that has been proven to sell is the SECR which has a pretty livery and several existing locos.  As for the rest of the BR Southern Region, the two other big companies are the LBSC and the LSWR.   Theoretically the LSWR should be the front runner out of those as it was much bigger, with a wider selection of locos, but it would SEEM that the LBSC is the one which is attracting new pre-grouping locos (see the subject of this thread).   

 

Why ?   I genuinely don't know, so I will GUESS that the LBSC livery is more attractive than the LSWR (?????) plus there are a couple of existing models that can easily be decked out is LBSC liveries (?????)

 

Good luck to the manufacturers in trying to figure out what will sell.

 

( IF I were a manufacturer I would have a researcher looking at whether there was a possible design for "generic" bogie coaches to match the existing and announced pre-grouping locos. )

 

 

P.S.  PLEASE go ahead with the LBSC  E1  0-6-0T as fast as possible.

 

.

Edited December 12, 2021 by phil gollin

[Steamport Southport]

15 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

the LNWR Precedents were all withdrawn and scrapped before nationalisation yet that hasn't stopped rails from producing several models of the class.

 

Yes Harwicke survives as part of the national collection and was a key driver for the model being made, but the fact still remains that you cannot have a BR liveried version which, according to you is apparently a 'must' in the RTR model world.

 

Still, if it sells well it might prompt someone to have a go at Gladstone - another class withdrawn before WW2 - yet a preserved example exists in the national collection.

 

Ah. But I've been on the footplate of Hardwicke in steam. I've also been behind it on the mainline pulling BR Mark Ones.

 

But I would also say it is in BR livery. If it had survived it would have got BR lined black being a lesser passenger locomotive.... 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Hmm. On further reflection, I wonder if that's why Lucknow is the one that's sold out? The undiscriminating not paying close enough attention to the product description?

 

People buying them to rename?

 

It also doesn't have the white cab roof.

 

 

Jason

[Legend]

On 11/12/2021 at 08:40, Oldddudders said:

84 questions? Really? Life is far too short and the prize will need to be brill for enough people to finish it. 

Its actually quite intuitive and well thought out . I quite enjoyed filling it in 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

People buying them to rename?

 

It also doesn't have the white cab roof.

 

Perhaps - I plan to rename mine, though to what I have not yet decided - not Hardwicke. Lucknow is in 1895 condition - i.e. close to how Hardwicke would have looked at the time of the race. But I suspect the proportion of purchasers making any changes will be very small.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

NOT every pre-grouping railway can hope to have even one loco produced in their colours, there are just too many.    What any loco manufacturer need to think about is which liveries AND WHY will sell ?

 

One that has been proven to sell is the SECR which has a pretty livery and several existing locos.  As for the rest of the BR Southern Region, the two other big companies are the LBSC and the LSWR.   Theoretically the LSWR should be the front runner out of those as it was much bigger, with a wider selection of locos, but it would SEEM that the LBSC is the one which is attracting new pre-grouping locos (see the subject of this thread).   

 

Why ?   I genuinely don't know, so I will GUESS that the LBSC livery is more attractive than the LSWR (?????) plus there are a couple of existing models that can easily be decked out is LBSC liveries (?????)

 

Good luck to the manufacturers in trying to figure out what will sell.

 

( IF I were a manufacturer I would have a researcher looking at whether there was a possible design for "generic" bogie coaches to match the existing and announced pre-grouping locos. )

 

 

P.S.  PLEASE go ahead with the LBSC  E1  0-6-0T as fast as possible.

 

.

 

I agree, the E1 will sell. But the argument was the E1 will sell as it lasted longer and there is a preserved version. They also spent much of their lives not in LBSC livery, the last BR one lasting until 1961. That's nearly forty years after the LBSC ceased to exist.

 

It was the "Do the D1 instead it'll sell loads" posts that I was challenging.  You might sell a few, but how many do Rapido need to make to break even? A few thousand certainly. It's not just a case of changing the wheels.

 

Are there really that many pre-grouping modellers that would buy one?

 

 

Jason

[RodneyS]

18 hours ago, Edwardian said:

(though I think some chaps want to build an H2, 

The H2 'Beachy Head' is well on the way to completion at the Bluebell Railway.

https://www.bluebell-railway.com/brps/atlantic-latest/

[mvrnut]

One of the preserved icons that hasn't yet made it into RTR is the LSWR Adams T3 which is currently undergoing restoration to steam again in hopefully 2023. This could be modelled in the very pretty and ornate Drummond livery.

  Also would be very good for a manufacturer such as Rapido to take this loco on with say £5 per loco premium which could go to the Swanage Railway Trust towards the restoration of this iconic loco.

 

Cheers

Chris

Edited December 14, 2021 by mvrnut

[adb968008]

On 11/12/2021 at 20:34, rapidoandy said:

I have been following that. One thing we don't know is how many of each livery have been made as its possible they didn't make an equal number of each. Its possible the smaller run has sold out, whilst the larger run has still sold more but as yet to sell out.

 

It is all very complicated! There is a lot more to data analysis and market research in model railways than some realise. I quite enjoy it :-)

 

 

 

It could be as simple as the LNW version with the white roof isnt as appealing, or triggers the same Rainhill memories as the black roof, and rather than tinkering with black paint on a £200+ model, instead rename, or just accept a different one.

 

I think Bachmann missed a trick with the plain black model of 1054, what they saved in lining they lost in sales not doing 1054 in Rainhill condition, with lining.

 

Preservation makes a difference, but I think looking pretty in a pre-grouping livery does too… the market for little black 0-6-0s is only so interesting before it wears off..,I reckon Rails will sell far more blue than black Caleys, and every week my inbox is spammed with sub £100 offers of plain black steam locos, of any type.

Edited December 13, 2021 by adb968008

[adb968008]

On 11/12/2021 at 21:16, Edwardian said:

 

Or Brighton Atlantic.

 

So, yes, the myth that you 'can't' make a pre-Grouping prototype that hasn't been preserved has already been busted (though I think some chaps want to build an H2, and the release was aided by the similarity to Bachmann's GN Atlantic).

 

That said, there are preserved icons that haven't made it to RTR; the GN small Atlantic, LB&SC Gladstone, the HR Jones Goods, the GWR Saint, the NER M1.

 

I expect that one by one such icons will fall, but not all. There are examples I could give of such icons accepted and such icons rejected.  So, where even some 'obvious' choices are the cause of hesitancy, we cannot let announce open season on the unpreserved.

 

  

Dont forget the north…

 

an L&Y dreadnought, and corresponding baltic tank I think would be very popular, one even made it to the York Museum in a highly publicised railtour in 1951 before going back to Horwich for scrap.

 

The Baltic tank I think would be an interesting spin off the same tooling, certainly in their day, they were feted for power, 1 even being displayed at Wembley in a festival, but for fate the story of Staniers/Fairburn and Fowler tanks could have been very different.

 

The LMS was so impressed with the Dreadnoughts, after their rebuild, they took them away from the L&Y and used them on the WCML, south and over Shap, it was only Derby’s monopoly that saw them off… but 50455 still made it to BR lined black.

 

A lot of options and liveries there, and a greenfield market, that still includes that all important BR livery… L&Y was very much a behmoth, but ignored because the “L” wasnt for London, the MSC hung alongside the L&Y and in preservtion their Hudswell Clarkes had a bit of a cult following up north, still do.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by adb968008

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The LMS was so impressed with the Dreadnoughts, after their rebuild, they took them away from the L&Y and used them on the WCML, south and over Shap, it was only Derby’s monopoly that saw them off… but 50455 still made it to BR lined black.

 

The Dreadnoughts started being drafted in to work the Crewe-Carlisle section of the WCML in lieu of the less than satisfactory Claughtons on the merger of the L&Y and LNW in 1922. George Hughes was the CME of the "new LNW" with Beames as his deputy at Crewe but I think it would be wrong to read partisanship into the question: it was simply an operational necessity that the most powerful and least flawed express passenger locomotive should be put on the hardest work. The LMS continued the same policy, still with Hughes as CME; well over half of them entered traffic after the L&Y / LNW amalgamation, the last appearing in 1924. The crisis of lack of suitably efficient and powerful express passenger locomotives for the WCML was solved with the Royal Scots.

 

I do think the Dreadnoughts are the most overlooked express passenger locomotives of the 20th century - they were a large class, 70 strong. They rarely worked into Euston, so were perhaps rather off the radar of the home counties enthusiasts of the day.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[CUCKOO LINE]

This  thread seems to be wandering off topic, most of recent comments would be better in have your say thread.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

This  thread seems to be wandering off topic, most of recent comments would be better in have your say thread.

 

To which the natural response is to suggest that if you feel that to be the case you should write an interesting and relevant post to bring the thread back on topic. Alternatively, we could discuss the pros and cons of a "have your say" topic...

 

I do find that RMWeb threads are at their most dynamic when the Joycean stream of consciousness is given free rein.

[phil gollin]

.

 

The problem is that it is always "the usual suspects" who invade threads on other subjects who then try to divert them onto their own regional railways, as it would seem that they cannot garner enough support to have their own topics.

 

Why do they imagine that, in this instance, Southern modellers, would want to talk about other regions on this thread ?

 

Start your own threads and stop de-railing sensible threads.

 

.

Edited December 14, 2021 by phil gollin

[Oldddudders]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I do find that RMWeb threads are at their most dynamic when the Joycean stream of consciousness is given free rein.

And if the meanderings give Rapido food for thought and other ideas to explore, then at the end of the day they, and thus we, may benefit. 

[phil gollin]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

And if the meanderings give Rapido food for thought and other ideas to explore, then at the end of the day they, and thus we, may benefit. 

.

 

Rapido might learn more from the reactions (or lack thereof) to a specific thread on other regions.

 

.