Rapido LB&SCR Class E1 0-6-0T

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

not what they'll actually buy if something (more) attractive is released. 

 

It's amazing what people will buy if it's made available - supply creates demand. It grieves the heart of the puritanical historical modeller who believes one should restrict one's purchases to one's specific period and place. (I never knew I needed an iphone and still don't have one...)

Edited December 9, 2021 by Compound2632
apostrophe inserted

[Edwardian]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's amazing what people will buy if it's made available - supply creates demand. It grieves the heart of the puritanical historical modeller who believes one should restrict one's purchases to ones specific period and place. (I never knew I needed an iphone and still don't have one...)

 

It grieves the wallet, too! 

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Market research, which only tells you what people think they'll want, not what they'll actually buy if something (more) attractive is released. Given that you didn't choose to make a GER version, we'll never have the data to know whether it would have sold.

 

Easy to say when we aren't the ones that would need to take the financial risk.

 

Every year there are a lot of things made because someone, regardless of market research saying otherwise, decided to make and then discovered the reality that the market research was correct - and that they have made a big financial blunder.

 

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

However, these days a pre-Grouping in-service liveried version of a new RTR loco release is de rigeur.  You can draw what conclusions you want from that.

 

Simple conclusion - the market has changed since Model Rail made the decision they made.

 

And perhaps a key driver of that change is the generic coaches Hattons decided to produce - a catalyst for change that Model Rail is unlikely to have been aware of.

 

Hindsight is wonderful because it gives 100% certainty, but it doesn't invalidate the decision making that was made X years ago.

 

 

[Edwardian]

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Easy to say when we aren't the ones that would need to take the financial risk.

 

Every year there are a lot of things made because someone, regardless of market research saying otherwise, decided to make and then discovered the reality that the market research was correct - and that they have made a big financial blunder.

 

 

Simple conclusion - the market has changed since Model Rail made the decision they made.

 

And perhaps a key driver of that change is the generic coaches Hattons decided to produce - a catalyst for change that Model Rail is unlikely to have been aware of.

 

Hindsight is wonderful because it gives 100% certainty, but it doesn't invalidate the decision making that was made X years ago.

 

 

 

Actually you'll find the MR decision was on the cusp of that trend. 

 

I  don't blame MR. I think if they made the same decision now it would be odder. I suspect they would need to sell all the samey LNE versions before contemplating alerter run and even the  a magazine's tolerance of risk is probably limited. 

 

Anyhow, you seem to have answered appointments I did not make. I simply argued that whether or not a GER version would have sold well could not be wholly answered by the market research for the reason I gave.  If the market research had been infallible,  I suppose they would have offloaded all the current versions by now 

 

EDIT: I hate predictive text!

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Edwardian

[rapidoandy]

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

 

I agree that supply can create demand - the important question is does it create ENOUGH demand. If that demand will beat the minimum order numbers needed then there is no reason why a model shouldn't be released in a pre-grouping livery. Factories usually want quite high numbers of each livery as a minimum number and this is often increased if the livery is complicated to apply (using lots of tampo prints etc) if the end price is going to be the same.

 

Personally I think there is a lot of people interested in pre-grouping liveries but I think this is swayed by seeing these liveries on preserved locomotives and rolling stock. We have seen several SECR locos, the Rails Caley tender engine and Dyno car, the NRM with various locos and lots of terriers selling well. However these can be seen "in the wild" and are in the public eye which may help persuade people to buy (not just die hard modellers but average "I have a model railway" types. Would the same sort of sales volume be seen for a GER J70 where none of the class have survived, let along in GER blue? No doubt you would sell a fair few - but is it enough to satisfy the manufacturer and the people taking the financial risk? Regarding the J70 you also have to remember that with both a commissioner (model rail) and a manufacturer involved the margins  can be very slim - thus the commercial risk can be greater... 

 

Now for any of you still reading we at Rapido are about to launch another survey which actually has some questions about this very issue. We plan to push this in our next newsletter but until then we can have a a 'soft' launch and you can take a look here:

 

The Great Rapido Model Railway Survey

 

There will even be a draw to win some prizes when the survey is closed next year. Come and tell us your thoughts and have your say!

 

Andy

 

 

[phil gollin]

4 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

...  Personally I think there is a lot of people interested in pre-grouping liveries but I think this is swayed by seeing these liveries on preserved locomotives and rolling stock. We have seen several SECR locos, the Rails Caley tender engine and Dyno car, the NRM with various locos and lots of terriers selling well. However these can be seen "in the wild" and are in the public eye which may help persuade people to buy (not just die hard modellers but average "I have a model railway" types. ....

 

 

.

 

I  THINK  that liking for pre-grouping liveries really started with the very colourful SECR C-Class, which I think won people over purely with the cuteness/beauty of the external looks.  It made a change and attracted the eyes of both railway modellers and lay people (especially partners).

 

Prettiness sells (if not done to death).

 

.

[No Decorum]

15 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

 

I agree that supply can create demand - the important question is does it create ENOUGH demand. If that demand will beat the minimum order numbers needed then there is no reason why a model shouldn't be released in a pre-grouping livery. Factories usually want quite high numbers of each livery as a minimum number and this is often increased if the livery is complicated to apply (using lots of tampo prints etc) if the end price is going to be the same.

 

Personally I think there is a lot of people interested in pre-grouping liveries but I think this is swayed by seeing these liveries on preserved locomotives and rolling stock. We have seen several SECR locos, the Rails Caley tender engine and Dyno car, the NRM with various locos and lots of terriers selling well. However these can be seen "in the wild" and are in the public eye which may help persuade people to buy (not just die hard modellers but average "I have a model railway" types. Would the same sort of sales volume be seen for a GER J70 where none of the class have survived, let along in GER blue? No doubt you would sell a fair few - but is it enough to satisfy the manufacturer and the people taking the financial risk? Regarding the J70 you also have to remember that with both a commissioner (model rail) and a manufacturer involved the margins  can be very slim - thus the commercial risk can be greater... 

 

Now for any of you still reading we at Rapido are about to launch another survey which actually has some questions about this very issue. We plan to push this in our next newsletter but until then we can have a a 'soft' launch and you can take a look here:

 

The Great Rapido Model Railway Survey

 

There will even be a draw to win some prizes when the survey is closed next year. Come and tell us your thoughts and have your say!

 

Andy

 

 

Wot? No Eastern Region?

[Oldddudders]

84 questions? Really? Life is far too short and the prize will need to be brill for enough people to finish it. 

[burgundy]

11 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

I  THINK  that liking for pre-grouping liveries really started with the very colourful SECR C-Class, which I think won people over purely with the cuteness/beauty of the external looks.  It made a change and attracted the eyes of both railway modellers and lay people (especially partners).

 

Prettiness sells (if not done to death).

 

.

Surely pre-grouping liveries were around in RTR long before that: the Terrier, Lord of the Isles and Caley 123.

Best wishes

Eric

[rapidoandy]

26 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

84 questions? Really? Life is far too short and the prize will need to be brill for enough people to finish it. 

Yep really!

 

However, you don’t actually answer them all. Depending how you answer questions sections get removed so it is tailored to you. The whole thing takes about 6 mins to complete and the uptake so far (considering I only put a link randomly in this thread) has been fantastic. 
 

I really would urge anyone to try it. It’s very common to see people say ‘I wish manufacturers would / wouldn’t do xxx feature’. Well now is the time to have a say. I suspect there will be some who won’t take the time to tell us their views but will spend a long time writing posts on here questioning manufactures decisions..

 

Andy

Edited December 11, 2021 by rapidoandy

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, rapidoandy said:

Yep really!

 

However, you don’t actually answer them all. Depending how you answer questions sections get removed so it is tailored to you. The whole thing takes about 6 mins to complete and the uptake so far (considering I only put a link randomly in this thread) has been fantastic. 
 

I really would urge anyone to try it. It’s very common to see people say ‘I wish manufacturers would / wouldn’t do xxx feature’. Well now is the time to have a say. I suspect there will be some who won’t take the time to tell us their views but will spend a long time writing posts on here questioning manufactures decisions..

 

Andy

 

While I appreciate it is necessary to keep some of the questions tightly focused, it does have the potential to give misleading results.

 

For example if you purchased the SECR D class from locomotion models or Bachmanns SECR C class model of 592 AND also bought Bachmanns 1P in Midland livery then the answer to the question "was the pre-grouping liveried loco you bought preserved*" is both yes and no!

 

 

* Can't remember the exact wording

[scottystitch]

1 hour ago, rapidoandy said:

Yep really!

 

However, you don’t actually answer them all. Depending how you answer questions sections get removed so it is tailored to you. The whole thing takes about 6 mins to complete and the uptake so far (considering I only put a link randomly in this thread) has been fantastic. 
 

I really would urge anyone to try it. It’s very common to see people say ‘I wish manufacturers would / wouldn’t do xxx feature’. Well now is the time to have a say. I suspect there will be some who won’t take the time to tell us their views but will spend a long time writing posts on here questioning manufactures decisions..

 

Andy

 

As surveys/questionnaires go, I thought it quite refreshing with regards some of the questions asked.

 

Best

Scott.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, burgundy said:

Surely pre-grouping liveries were around in RTR long before that: the Terrier, Lord of the Isles and Caley 123.

Best wishes

Eric

 

While this is true, the models themselves were pretty crude by todays standards and as such would have put quite a lot of folk off buying them.

 

The difference with the C class is it was a bang up to date super detailed model, not a re-release of old tooling from decades before - prior to it was released there were no super detailed pre grouping locos offered.

 

Since then we have had the H, P and D classes from the SECR, a L&Y 2-4-2T, the LNWR Coal tank, LBSCR and GN Atlantics, etc all of which have been well received by the market, with the Caledonian 0-6-0 and LNWR Precedent on their way - not to mention a huge number of pre-grouping highly detailed 4/6 wheeled 'Generic' stock for them to pull.

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Since then we have had the H, P and D classes from the SECR, a L&Y 2-4-2T, the LNWR Coal tank, LBSCR and GN Atlantics, etc all of which have been well received by the market, with the Caledonian 0-6-0 and LNWR Precedent on their way - not to mention a huge number of pre-grouping highly detailed 4/6 wheeled 'Generic' stock for them to pull.

 

And the Midland 1532 Class 0-4-4T!

[Edwardian]

21 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

 

I agree that supply can create demand - the important question is does it create ENOUGH demand. If that demand will beat the minimum order numbers needed then there is no reason why a model shouldn't be released in a pre-grouping livery. Factories usually want quite high numbers of each livery as a minimum number and this is often increased if the livery is complicated to apply (using lots of tampo prints etc) if the end price is going to be the same.

 

Personally I think there is a lot of people interested in pre-grouping liveries but I think this is swayed by seeing these liveries on preserved locomotives and rolling stock. We have seen several SECR locos, the Rails Caley tender engine and Dyno car, the NRM with various locos and lots of terriers selling well. However these can be seen "in the wild" and are in the public eye which may help persuade people to buy (not just die hard modellers but average "I have a model railway" types. Would the same sort of sales volume be seen for a GER J70 where none of the class have survived, let along in GER blue? No doubt you would sell a fair few - but is it enough to satisfy the manufacturer and the people taking the financial risk? Regarding the J70 you also have to remember that with both a commissioner (model rail) and a manufacturer involved the margins  can be very slim - thus the commercial risk can be greater... 

 

Now for any of you still reading we at Rapido are about to launch another survey which actually has some questions about this very issue. We plan to push this in our next newsletter but until then we can have a a 'soft' launch and you can take a look here:

 

The Great Rapido Model Railway Survey

 

There will even be a draw to win some prizes when the survey is closed next year. Come and tell us your thoughts and have your say!

 

Andy

 

 

 

Much safer to wait, say, for the successful advent of the first accurate standard gauge RTR pre-Group livered wagon and then make some yourself !!!!!!!

 

 

 

However, whether a leader or a follower, one of the routes to sales is increasingly the growing popularity of the pre-Grouping scene*

 

*other periods are available.

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Edwardian
split infinitive!

[rapidoandy]

If I had been working for Rapido 10 years ago we would have seen them then! Whilst contracting for others I also pushed for similar.

 

I’m not convinced every pre-grouping items is a seller and I think the ones that have sold well have links to preservation and or related to other products that are around. I doubt the rails vans would have sold as well if the C, P or H hadn’t come along before..

 

it is all about the big picture..

[Edwardian]

5 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

If I had been working for Rapido 10 years ago we would have seen them then! Whilst contracting for others I also pushed for similar.

 

I’m not convinced every pre-grouping items is a seller and I think the ones that have sold well have links to preservation and or related to other products that are around. I doubt the rails vans would have sold as well if the C, P or H hadn’t come along before..

 

it is all about the big picture..

 

Indeed, I doubt Rails would have made them without the loco releases you mention, but that's all to the good; many years ago I advocated 'joined up releases', and this extends to non-rolling stock items as well. That's why I like the fact that Model Rail do a 'system builder' section to reviews, to help co-ordinate complementary RTR releases. 

[Compound2632]

Interesting to note in the light of this discussion that of the three versions of the Rails Precedent, it's the LNWR-liveried one that is sold out, according to their latest email, whereas the two LMS-liveried versions are still available to pre-order.

[rapidoandy]

I have been following that. One thing we don't know is how many of each livery have been made as its possible they didn't make an equal number of each. Its possible the smaller run has sold out, whilst the larger run has still sold more but as yet to sell out.

 

It is all very complicated! There is a lot more to data analysis and market research in model railways than some realise. I quite enjoy it :-)

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

11 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

I have been following that. One thing we don't know is how many of each livery have been made as its possible they didn't make an equal number of each. Its possible the smaller run has sold out, whilst the larger run has still sold more but as yet to sell out.

 

It is all very complicated! There is a lot more to data analysis and market research in model railways than some realise. I quite enjoy it :-)

 

 

 

 

But if that were the case it suggests that the industry still under-estimates the potential of the pre-grouping (augmented perhaps with preservations)  market.

[Edwardian]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The difference with the C class is it was a bang up to date super detailed model, not a re-release of old tooling from decades before - prior to it was released there were no super detailed pre grouping locos offered.

 

Since then we have had the H, P and D classes from the SECR, a L&Y 2-4-2T, the LNWR Coal tank, LBSCR and GN Atlantics, etc all of which have been well received by the market, with the Caledonian 0-6-0 and LNWR Precedent on their way - not to mention a huge number of pre-grouping highly detailed 4/6 wheeled 'Generic' stock for them to pull.

 

 

 

The C was a fudge, with Maunsell era pophead rivets on the smoke box wrapper for one thing, and the non-preserved Wainwright liveried Hattons Ps were similarly afflicted, though all credit to Hattons, they supplied the original pattern SE&CR buffers in the box, so we regard that as a semi-in-service pre-grouping condition.

 

Thereafter, manufacturers and commissioners were routinely coming out with releases with the correct tooling and livery for pre-Grouping in-service condition.  The first example I recall was the Hornby H, but they were coming thick and fast.  Often, though not always, the preserved version was a special edition, with the pre-Grouping 'in-service' version as the 'main range' model. 

 

Given the scale of the upfront investment in a traditionally manufactured RTR product, it is no surprise that manufacturers/commissioners are rather like Hollywood studios commissioning blockbuster films; they want to stick to a formula that they know will sell.  For this reason, progress in diversification is necessarily slow, but the fact remains that progress has nevertheless taken place over the last few years. The mass market has matured, the manufacturing chicken and to collectors' egg nudging each other along. 

 

Thus, I understand why manufacturers remain nervous in certain areas, for instance where a pre-Grouping prototype that otherwise has a lot going for it hasn't happened to make it to preservation. Eventually this fence will be jumped but it's not our money that's at risk and we must be patient!  

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

Thus, I understand why manufacturers remain nervous in certain areas, for instance where a pre-Grouping prototype that otherwise has a lot going for it hasn't happened to make it to preservation. Eventually this fence will be jumped but it's not our money that's at risk and we must be patient!  

 

Show me the preserved Johnson 0-4-4T!

[Edwardian]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Show me the preserved Johnson 0-4-4T!

 

Or Brighton Atlantic.

 

So, yes, the myth that you 'can't' make a pre-Grouping prototype that hasn't been preserved has already been busted (though I think some chaps want to build an H2, and the release was aided by the similarity to Bachmann's GN Atlantic).

 

That said, there are preserved icons that haven't made it to RTR; the GN small Atlantic, LB&SC Gladstone, the HR Jones Goods, the GWR Saint, the NER M1.

 

I expect that one by one such icons will fall, but not all. There are examples I could give of such icons accepted and such icons rejected.  So, where even some 'obvious' choices are the cause of hesitancy, we cannot let announce open season on the unpreserved.

 

  

[rapidoandy]

39 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

But if that were the case it suggests that the industry still under-estimates the potential of the pre-grouping (augmented perhaps with preservations)  market.

I would agree. There is only one thing a manufacturer cant afford to do - that is having stock sitting on shelves and not selling. People will always be cautious as a result.

 

Interestingly our teams "wants" list includes quite a number of pre-grouping items :-) 

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Show me the preserved Johnson 0-4-4T!

 

They lasted into BR days though. I serious doubt they would have been made otherwise.

 

Same as for Brighton Atlantics, there's one at the Bluebell and it's virtually just a GNR C1 with a different cab and tender.

 

Guess which version of the C1 sold out first? Yes BR lined black. You can still get GNR ones.

 

 

 

Jason