frobisher Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Point 1 - What are you talking about? RMweb has only jointly promoted a wishlist poll this year (after the 76 was announced). My profuse apologies for that - I meant MREmag and typed RMweb instead (probably because it rolls off the tongue better). I'm really sorry for any confusion and/or offense that may have caused. I said "were" funnily enough because last year's was a distinct improvement over previous form. Point 2 - Now you're making assumptions about costs; I actually doubt that Dapol's production costs would be anything lower than Heljan's (based on knowledge of materials used). That wasn't actually what I said. I said that if Dapol had produced the 76 for Hattons, the price would likely be lower than what we got with Heljan and Olivia's working together. Hatton's has more experience of such commissions, plus have the necessary market share/presence to be able to make larger runs (and hence bring costs down). If Olivia's had gone to Dapol I suspect that it would have cost even more and Heljan were probably Olivia's cheapest option. I'm another person who has chosen not to purchase an item I view as being less perfect than it should be for the price it is being retailed at. And that's the call you should be making. There are undoubtedly reasons why it's the price it is but it puts it to a point where it's a no purchase to you (and others) - but not all. What I'd taken previous umbrage at is the assumption that the retailer must be price gouging because it was more than people were willing to pay. Sometimes things just cost more than we're willing to pay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Think about it. A co-bo is bigger (tools are costed on size and it's far from proportional) a class 76 needs one bogie designing, the co bo needs 2, adding rivets to a mould is little more than CNC drilling a load of holes in the tool. Sorry but a class 76 is going to cost way way less than a co-bo without any doubt at all. The size difference itself would make it so let alone the need for 2 different bogies and all the associated design of the gearing. Sorry Frobisher but if you think the 76 should cost anything like a co-bo to tool you are miles off. Tooling costs are not just cutting metal (albeit a very significant cost). You just need to look at DapolDave's post to see how the CAD work evolves before you get near that stage. The CAD modelling effort on the 76 would be considerably higher (there's a lot more going on with that body shape than the C0-B0's - at least so say the 3D modellers I employ...), and the manufacturing cost is undoubtedly higher due to the arrray of fiddly bits that need to fitted at factory compared to the 28. As regards gearing - I'd be very suprised if Heljan don't have that templated to hell and back. It's a known problem, and they've done 2 and 3 axle bogies before. Matching gear ratios up correctly is not rocket science. As for some of your other points, do you know for a fact that the real loco was scanned? If it was how is it SO wrong? Never claimed it was scanned (I honestly don't know, but it's not Heljan's "form" to date), just that scanning adds extra costs. I don't think it's fair you pick on gronk for assuming something then tell him 'this is more common than you know'. How on earth do you know what he does and doesn't know? I'm sorry but reading these last few pages you have really come across as a know it all who knows nothing. Perhaps it's the industry I'm in, but I'm acutely aware of services such as Kickstarter that effectively work in this manner (almost the entirety of the risk is placed on the donators though in that instance...). But hey, what do I know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Presence of a real life prototype could ironically push up your costs (that laser scanning isn't a freebie you know). I'd still say that the LMS Twins probably have less involved with their tooling than the 76. Was that not a claim that the 76 was laser scanned? If not why did you raise laser scanning as a justification for the price point? I dont know what you know and never claimed i did. I merely said how you are coming across. If you do know what you are talking about you are certainly not convincing me that is the case. You seem pretty quick to dismiss the opinions of others though, that was my point. Lets face it rivets or not (the 153 has more AND is a lot bigger and a lot more complex (underframe) so perhaps thats a better comparrison) theres little point trying to justify the price of the 76 but i think you know that and are just argueing for the sake of it. (but again thats just how it comes across) Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Gents, please. We none of us knows what the others of us know, and there are far too many variables and procedural unknowns afloat on this issue for any of us to be definitive without input from the horses' mouth and nag's head respectively. That's project commissioner and commissionee - attribute each as your situations suggest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 We none of us knows what the others of us know, Perfectly true but there may be times where I can't say outright what I do know to qualify a statement. However if I were to say that the cost to the retailer* probably wasn't too far from the deposits requested¬ and that Dapol's cost to A.N.Other for A.Different-Loco would have been based on longer-life tooling* and retailed at a price lower¬ than the 'high' retail price under discussion it's possible to deduce that different margins and anticipated rate of sales are in operation. *Based on knowledge of some broad spectrum pricing ¬ Based on public domain info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 We none of us knows what the others of us know, Exactly my point Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I'm claiming the one on the left, it matches my eyes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 The one on the right has the finest looking pantograph! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Hi Alastair I dont but i know a few people who know them very well and i trust thier opinion. Having said that looking a pics of the model and the real locos even to me they look quite different. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Was that not a claim that the 76 was laser scanned? If not why did you raise laser scanning as a justification for the price point? I dont know what you know and never claimed i did. I merely said how you are coming across. If you do know what you are talking about you are certainly not convincing me that is the case. You seem pretty quick to dismiss the opinions of others though, that was my point. Lets face it rivets or not (the 153 has more AND is a lot bigger and a lot more complex (underframe) so perhaps thats a better comparrison) theres little point trying to justify the price of the 76 but i think you know that and are just argueing for the sake of it. (but again thats just how it comes across) Cheers Jim Measured by hand at the NRM, with No access to the roof I was told. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Measured by hand at the NRM, with No access to the roof I was told. That might explain things a little. Don't suppose you know what they used to measure it with? a 12" long piece of elastic maybe?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Limited edition Heljan class 76 £165 Limited edition Dapol 10000 £124 Limited edition Heljan 28 £125 That price is absolutely eye watering. The Beattie Well Tanks I would argue are one of the most involved and complicated (in a design sense) RTR models on the market, with an RRP just over half that of the Class 76. In fact, thinking about it, every single recent steam locomotive limited edition, bar the much larger Beyer Garratt from Hattons (RRP of £199, coincidentally from Heljan) comes under £150 (looking at the Midland Compound, Truro, Butler-Henderson, Beattie Well Tank, forthcoming IoW O2 and similar) and they are surely much more complicated machines to measure up, tool up and have more moving parts. So how can Heljan/Olivias justify £160 for a box shaped Bo-Bo not much bigger (if at all)...? Apologies if I speak out of line, but I cannot fathom that asking price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Apologies if I speak out of line, but I cannot fathom that asking price. It's probably not a desirable price point, but sale price is the end point of a series of variables; If your Orange costs £5K to tool up, and £1 to make each in a batch of 5,000, then to break even on your first batch of 5,000 you need to sell at £2 each. You may then have further fixed costs on top of that (staff, rent etc), If your Electric Lemon costs £5K to tool up, but your fruit stall doesn't get as many visitors as the Orange vendors, then 2,500 as a first batch may be a better bet. Say that's £2 a unit to make due to incurring the same setup time as a 5,000 batch though less materials. This then makes your break even cost on your first batch £3 each. And then you have the Obviously numbers pulled out of the air. But might give an idea for how some of the disparity comes from. If the end result is that you have a product that's priced too high for the market then "oops". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Im not sure people really need the primary school maths lesson TBH. If you have actual figures then knock yourself out but at the end of the day you are still trying to talk with great authority about absolutely nothing. I can give you a figure from several years ago from the guys at Heljan. They use soft tools. Their standard runs are about 1000 units before a new tool is required. All those variations of class 47s they did were not tool inserts, they were brand new tools. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Dear Frobisher/Mr Sinclair What is it with you and fruit? the other day we had apples and oranges now oranges and lemons! Are you by any chance a green grocer in your spare time? ! But joking aside, I can't understand why you are so completely opposed to the idea that maybe, just maybe Olivia's are actually overcharging with the intention of making a nice fat profit. Of course there maybe some hidden costs that mean they only make two shillings and sixpence on each one, but neither of us know if they make £100 or 100 pence on each one. ...........................or do you???? All we as consumers can do is make a value for money vs desirability judgement and buy or not buy accordingly. When a product is so much dearer than it's competition without some tangible features that justify the differential it's natural for some people (of which as you know I am one) to say that's inexplicably too expensive and walk away. We can all do the maths about 10000 grapefruit vs 568 kiwi fruit, (did you like my fruit reference?) but as some of the numbers are missing from the equation we can only make decisions on the figures that are presented to us. If you do know the figures, please, if you are able, fill us in and we might not be so antagonistic regarding the price. If you don't can you not just accept that we might, might be being charged too much? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 What is it with you and fruit? the other day we had apples and oranges now oranges and lemons! Are you by any chance a green grocer in your spare time? ! That was a deliberate attempt to make light of what went before... Jeez, hard crowd. But joking aside, I can't understand why you are so completely opposed to the idea that maybe, just maybe Olivia's are actually overcharging with the intention of making a nice fat profit. Of course there maybe some hidden costs that mean they only make two shillings and sixpence on each one, but neither of us know if they make £100 or 100 pence on each one. ...........................or do you???? And why are you just as adamant that they must be overcharging? At the end of the day, Olivia's haven't got them priced according to market expectations judging by a lot of people's reactions. If you do know the figures, please, if you are able, fill us in and we might not be so antagonistic regarding the price. If you don't can you not just accept that we might, might be being charged too much? See above... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Im not sure people really need the primary school maths lesson TBH. If you have actual figures then knock yourself out but at the end of the day you are still trying to talk with great authority about absolutely nothing. I can give you a figure from several years ago from the guys at Heljan. They use soft tools. Their standard runs are about 1000 units before a new tool is required. All those variations of class 47s they did were not tool inserts, they were brand new tools. Go on then, chapter and verse... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 What do you mean? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Maybe they are over charging, maybe they're not. But if we are talking market expectations, then frankly the class 85 electric from Bachmann is the new benchmark both in price and quality. I can't see many people taking up a £160 price tag, unseen, for any model in this particular niche of the market. Yes, I'm aware pre-orders are open and being filled for the Hattons Beyer-Garratt but then that particular monster is priced appropriate to its physical size and volume, and tooling, so it seems, at a sliver under £200. For £40 less you get a locomotive not even half the length of the Beyer Garratt. So to me, the sticking point isn't the consumer or unrealistic expectations. It seems to be an unrealistic price point for a model which is neither as complicated as those at the top end of the market, nor using as much raw material as the most expensive either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2012 Maybe they are over charging, maybe they're not. But if we are talking market expectations, then frankly the class 85 electric from Bachmann is the new benchmark both in price and quality. I can't see many people taking up a £160 price tag, unseen, for any model in this particular niche of the market. Yes, I'm aware pre-orders are open and being filled for the Hattons Beyer-Garratt but then that particular monster is priced appropriate to its physical size and volume, and tooling, so it seems, at a sliver under £200. For £40 less you get a locomotive not even half the length of the Beyer Garratt. So to me, the sticking point isn't the consumer or unrealistic expectations. It seems to be an unrealistic price point for a model which is neither as complicated as those at the top end of the market, nor using as much raw material as the most expensive either. Exactly so Simon - price levels have moved up and commissioned model prices tend to be higher anyway as the investment is spread over a smaller number of models but this one is noticeably that bit higher. Couple to that the peculiar idea - to the British r-t-r market - of seeking a deposit long before you could see what you would be getting and it is not unnatural that many potential customers wonder what is happening and start to draw their own conclusions, be they accurate or not. Clearly a commissioned model is unlikely to be price compatible with one aimed at the mass market so I think comparison with a Bachmann AL5/Class 85 is not the right one although I think it not unreasonable to compare it with, for example, Kernow's D6XX 'Warship' (also commissioned by a retailer but with no advance deposit). If a retailer can commission on that basis without seeking some customer funding of development one is bound to be rather wary of another who seeks our cash upfront to do exactly the same thing; if the bank won't support their business plan with a loan why should I? However I do think this debate has now become more more circular than the average roundy layout and perhaps it is time to draw it to a conclusion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod4 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 However I do think this debate has now become more more circular than the average roundy layout and perhaps it is time to draw it to a conclusion? Mike I am sure that you are correct and I suggest that this thread moves on from pricing back to discussing the models themselves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2012 If your Orange costs ... If your Electric Lemon costs Frobisher is simply saying what we all know... The OT 76 is a lemon! Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Measured by hand at the NRM, with No access to the roof I was told. The Co Bo was measured the same way, and again they had no access to the roof. I think its generally accepted that the Co Bo is pretty much spot on? Looks right to me anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderer08 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I think this has got away from my original question, has anyone else decided not to buy a 76, due to IMHO it being spoilt by having holes in the front end for the marker light disc's to be fitted? I model the BR blue era and as the marker light disc's had been dispensed with by this time, the model is left with large unsightly holes spoiling the front end! I will not spend money on a model with such unnessessary faults! Does anyone else feel the same? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I think this has got away from my original question, has anyone else decided not to buy a 76, due to IMHO it being spoilt by having holes in the front end for the marker light disc's to be fitted? I model the BR blue era and as the marker light disc's had been dispensed with by this time, the model is left with large unsightly holes spoiling the front end! I will not spend money on a model with such unnessessary faults! Does anyone else feel the same? In a way yes. If the model was say in a price I'd consider one, around £100 mark I would be put off by horrible holes, but I wouldn't part with £165 anyway even if it was a perfect model. I just dont see them been worth it. I know alot of people feel the same reading various forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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