charliepetty Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 What brand of replacement pantograph is recommended ?? Judith Edge kits make a EM1 Pantograph kit or the Somerfeldt ones are acceptable and work! DC Kits sell them from the Website Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl. H. Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 They never had a grey roof! The actual shade used for the roof was a pale yellow, primrose IIRC. Although when weathered and faded, it took on more of a grey hue. Carl. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderer08 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The real Class 76s do not have holes either side of the lights, the fixing/location holes for the tail/headcode discs are in the angle /footplate strip above the bufferbeam. Has anyone decided not to buy a 76 due to the blue model being ruined by have holes in the front end for the marker light disc's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Has anyone decided not to buy a 76 due to the blue model being ruined by have holes in the front end for the marker light disc's? No, I didn't buy one because I think the price is ridiculously steep. If it had been similar to Bachmann's 85, which sells for around £87 I'd have bought 3. But for £165 I'm saving the money for a Dapol O gauge 08! I wonder how well these are selling considering the price? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted July 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2012 Ditto Spot on gronk. Cut the price = more sales. Just ordered 2xdapol 08s, cash could have gone on a 76 or two, Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
59205 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 No, I didn't buy one because I think the price is ridiculously steep. If it had been similar to Bachmann's 85, which sells for around £87 I'd have bought 3. But for £165 I'm saving the money for a Dapol O gauge 08! I wonder how well these are selling considering the price? Agreed. I saw the price and thought it was a mis-print. Sadly not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 058 Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Ive just added it up, and ive spent just over £1500 on these so far! I guess it comes down to how badly you want them and how much you want to model the MSW route they ran on. In addition to that ive also spent a small fortune, and alot of time scratch building OHLE too. For me, the price is high, no doubt about it, but its the best way to do what I want to do! All the alternatives just dont even come close to olivias version. At the end of the day the em1/em2 are a very unusual, high risk model to produce. They had a very restricted area of operation, not that many livery variations, and are electrics so most probably will sell more as a novelty or display model than selling on mass to people interested in modelling the woodhead route. That sort of justifies the price in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Ditto Spot on gronk. Cut the price = more sales. Heaven forbid that the shop recoups its costs on a product... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Heaven forbid that the shop recoups its costs on a product... Of course it's in everyone's interest that every limited edition covers it's costs and delivers a profit, HOWEVER,(generally) if a product is overpriced and poor value, regardless of whether it's a model train or a tin of beans, it will sell badly and if the price isn't adjusted it deserves to fail. This is capitalism or if you prefer, the free market. The price of the 76 is too high compared to it's equivalents and unless there are some special unknown factors that result in a higher price the extra £40 is purely excess profit. Limited edition Heljan class 76 £165 Limited edition Dapol 10000 £124 Limited edition Heljan 28 £125 Perhaps it's the high quality pantographs that account for the extra £40!! Whilst production items can be cheaper through economies of scale perhaps, production class 85 around £87 production Heljan class 86 around £90 Do you think that the 76 is a better model that the prototype Deltic?, it should be if judged on cost. What I was saying was simply that for me the price represents poor value for money and a disincentive for me and perhaps many others to buy one. A more realistically priced loco is more likely to sell quicker, justifying additional production runs and ultimately more profit for both Olivia's and Heljan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 They had a very restricted area of operation, not that many livery variations, and are electrics so most probably will sell more as a novelty or display model than selling on mass to people interested in modelling the woodhead route. That sort of justifies the price in my opinion. Did you think that the class 14, class 28 and Lion etc were mainstream models? All of them have very restricted areas of operation and few liveries. The MSW route does have a certain popularity that would have grown (IMO) if there had been reasonably priced models available. 15 years ago how many people modelled SR EMU's for instance? Now they are quite common. You yourself for example have bought 9 or 10 76's (judging from the amount you state you've spent) I can't imagine anyone bought more than one kestrel or Lion. Many more people would buy 3 or 4 class 76's if the price were right I'd wager! If I sound annoyed about this it's because I am! I very much wanted to buy a fleet of 76's and was initially very excited when I heard of Olivia's project, but on general principle I won't be buying any because I don't believe Olivia's can justify the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 You yourself for example have bought 9 or 10 76's (judging from the amount you state you've spent) ... I don't believe Olivia's can justify the price. QED Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 Heaven forbid that the shop recoups its costs on a product... Heaven forbid that the shop recoups its costs on a product... Basic rules of economics Mr Frobisher. If Olivia's fail to shift their limited edition stock then they will not recoup their outlay. At current pricing then of course they have calculated they will recoup their costs and make a profit. But only if they shift what they have, which is certainly not guaranteed. That was the point I was trying to make. I'm assuming based on Jim S-Ws thread most class 85 purchases were not necessarily to people who wanted WCML based layouts. I'm assuming that class 76 and 77 sales will not be uniquely to people that are modelling the Woodhead route, a few are including 40 058 and I completely understand this. I loved the old EM1s and EM2s, but with the current pricing and issues with the models I won't spend. It's a personal viewpoint, but not an isolated one. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 Basic rules of economics Mr Frobisher. If Olivia's fail to shift their limited edition stock then they will not recoup their outlay. At current pricing then of course they have calculated they will recoup their costs and make a profit. But only if they shift what they have, which is certainly not guaranteed. That was the point I was trying to make. I'm assuming based on Jim S-Ws thread most class 85 purchases were not necessarily to people who wanted WCML based layouts. I'm assuming that class 76 and 77 sales will not be uniquely to people that are modelling the Woodhead route, a few are including 40 058 and I completely understand this. I loved the old EM1s and EM2s, but with the current pricing and issues with the models I won't spend. It's a personal viewpoint, but not an isolated one. Neil I was another potential EM1 buyer - they always had a special attraction and were something different. But two things put me off - the first was that the commissioner appeared to lack sufficient faith in his product to the extent that he wanted someone else (the end consumer) to bankroll at least part of the production cost, and the second was the emerging high price when compared with similar commissioned model developments. All in all this suggested to me that the lack of faith might well be accompanied by a lack of conviction. The critically important conviction that is needed with commissioned models in order to achieve as correct a model as possible out of the chain of Europe based 'manufacturer' and Chinese actual manufacturer with the latter needing to be led by a carefully written spec, be provided with accurate drawings and photographs and then be kept on course to produce what was originally asked for - all of that needs close and careful 'management attention' from the commissioner. And I think there's a lot of truth in the old adage about someone putting their money where their mouth is - we all tend, I think, to be a lot more careful with our own money than with someone else's. If you aren't carrying the risk you might not be so careful to ensure that you get the product absolutely right (=reputation and sales) or that it is 'market priced' - i.e. priced at a level the market sees as delivering value for money (=sales). What the commissioner has to do is balance a whole set of factors and get the right prices for buying-in and selling on set against time invested (usually not charged by most commissioners I suspect), quantities ordered, and rate of return at xx% quantity sold ... and so on. Other commissioners seem to have demonstrated that they can do this and have produced models of what were small classes of limited geographical spread that appear to have sold in sufficient numbers to encourage them to progress further commissions; all were, I think, prepared to finance the risk because - presumably - they were wholly committed to getting things right and making a profit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 QED Clever. The idea that one person buying so many justifies the high price is nonsense. He obviously feels the price is worth paying,but as I originally asked how many others are buying at this price?, compared with how many would buy at a reduced and more sensible one? I would venture that many more people have opted out because of the price than have opted in. The 76 was near the top of the wishlist MREmag poll for several years as was blue pullman. Therefore Olivia's didn't take a big risk in picking the 76, they cherry picked the top polled D&E models and priced it to make a killing if they sold them all and more annoyingly tried to pass on initial costs by charging a big deposit. Assuming the development cost were no greater for the 76's than for the COBo's, then why do Olivia's feel they justify taking a higher profit than Hatton's, and why should we as consumers vindicate their avarice by buying an overpriced model which isn't exactly perfect either? I don't expect retailers to act like some benevolent charity for railway modellers, but at the same time I'm not prepared to buy from someone who I feel is trying to take liberties with the customers. My next layout may well have 25kv electrics, though I would have much preferred to have gone 1500V. But please Olivia. don't bother commissioning a class 83 for £165! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 The 76 was near the top of the wishlist MREmag poll for several years as was blue pullman. Therefore Olivia's didn't take a big risk in picking the 76, they cherry picked the top polled D&E models and priced it to make a killing if they sold them all and more annoyingly tried to pass on initial costs by charging a big deposit. How's that not "high risk"? How do you know they were going to "make a killing"? As you pointed out they charged a big deposit which would rather point the other direction. Olivia's were almost certainly not the retailer best placed to take this kind of risk and guarentee the higher volumes required to get the models out at a more market friendly price. Assuming the development cost were no greater for the 76's than for the COBo's, then why do Olivia's feel they justify taking a higher profit than Hatton's, and why should we as consumers vindicate their avarice by buying an overpriced model which isn't exactly perfect either? That's a hell of an assumption, and I'd say almost certainly wrong. The C0-B0 is an order of magnitude "simpler" to tool up. Pretty much slab sided, lacking lots of external dodads and, what, 2 variants (produced) whereas the 76 is the posterboy for rivets and they've gone for every single variation possible. Tooling costs will be higher, assembly costs will be higher. Olivia's batches may be smaller than Hatton's as well. At the end of the day Olivia's can probably fully justify their sale price. You and others however cannot justify buying them at that price. But clearly some can. So don't assume overcharging and price gouging from "Apples and Oranges" arguments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I choose to make comment on this forum about the Quality of the sound files of certain sounds he was using and was told by the proprietor that I was Banned from his shop.. This was his loss in the long run as I was considering the purchese of a couple of class 76's. However after seeing the rather strange contract that were posted on their website I not to bother. I wanted a model loco not a bathroom suite!! I just hope that the contract aint to time bound and one day Heljan will produce them at a realistic price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40 058 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Did you think that the class 14, class 28 and Lion etc were mainstream models? All of them have very restricted areas of operation and few liveries. The MSW route does have a certain popularity that would have grown (IMO) if there had been reasonably priced models available. 15 years ago how many people modelled SR EMU's for instance? Now they are quite common. You yourself for example have bought 9 or 10 76's (judging from the amount you state you've spent) I can't imagine anyone bought more than one kestrel or Lion. Many more people would buy 3 or 4 class 76's if the price were right I'd wager! If I sound annoyed about this it's because I am! I very much wanted to buy a fleet of 76's and was initially very excited when I heard of Olivia's project, but on general principle I won't be buying any because I don't believe Olivia's can justify the price. I do sympathise with you totally, its very annoying when you want to do something but, ultimately are prevented because of the cost. It is however true of everything, I would like a new ferrari or a huge house in the country but I cant afford one so I cant have one! I either have to accept this fact or (as I have done to get my 76s) cut back on something else and save up. I saved for these from when they first announced them so I made sure I could get them. I say this with the greatest of respect and I dont mean to tell you what to do or start an arguement by the way! I dont think there was an issue with the producer having no confidance in their product either, they wouldnt have made it if they didnt. Im sure everyone is aware how much it costs to commission a model. The Hattons 28 for example, was commissioned by a large store that does very well and the model was fairly simple to make. Olivias is a far smaller set up than Hattons and decided to go for a very complex prototype with alot of details, extra parts, pantos (whatever your take is on them) etc, so it stands to reason that it will cost more to make. I understand and accept they needed a bit of financial help to get the project going. Again, I wanted to have these badly enough that it was a price worth paying. The bottom line is that Olivias are a buissiness and have to make a profit or they will swiftly go bust, hence the price! I do however agee, that I am probably in a very very small minority in being able to/want to buy so many. I would be suprised if there are many people who have as many as I do. I get the feeling that most people bought one, maybe two just so they have one to look at and run occasionaly. (Just as I did with the 85, 28, kestral, falcon etc etc). I have no doubt that if the price was less more people would buy them and more people would consider modelling the MSW route, and overhead electrics in general. Dont get me wrong, I would love to have these models and pay less for them but thats not a choice thats available. Im not rich and I dont have a highly paid job either but, to me its a price well worth paying (Although I still dont think its that unreasonable either!) If it means I can finally, after years of waiting and wanting to make a model of it. The last time someone made an rtr 76/77 was a good 50 odd years ago! I for one am not willing to wait that long, or even half as long for someone else to decide they will have a go at them. In my opinion if you are adamant that you wont pay the asking price for these then unfortunatly all you can do is go down a differant route with what you model, scratch or kit build, or simply go without! I considered all this and decided to go for it anyway. I suppose you could contact them and at least ask what they may be willing to do to get the price down. Maybe they have some old display models, damaged ones(im sure they did have some arrive that were damaged from transit), old prototypes or something they may be willing to shift on cheap(er). It costs nothing to ask!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 How's that not "high risk"? How do you know they were going to "make a killing"? As you pointed out they charged a big deposit which would rather point the other direction. Olivia's were almost certainly not the retailer best placed to take this kind of risk and guarentee the higher volumes required to get the models out at a more market friendly price. That's a hell of an assumption, and I'd say almost certainly wrong. The C0-B0 is an order of magnitude "simpler" to tool up. Pretty much slab sided, lacking lots of external dodads and, what, 2 variants (produced) whereas the 76 is the posterboy for rivets and they've gone for every single variation possible. Tooling costs will be higher, assembly costs will be higher. Olivia's batches may be smaller than Hatton's as well. At the end of the day Olivia's can probably fully justify their sale price. You and others however cannot justify buying them at that price. But clearly some can. So don't assume overcharging and price gouging from "Apples and Oranges" arguments. in answer to some of your points: How is it not high risk - simple you've got market research from surveys conducted yearly where your potential customer base say what they want and how many they'd be prepared to buy. I'd say that cuts down risk somewhat. A big deposit indicates it's high risk? - no it indicates they aren't prepared to stand by there product and meet it's development costs themselves. If you had a Ford Mondeo would you be happy to pay Ford a deposit for your next car before it entered production and before you'd seen one because Ford wanted you to cover some of their R and D costs? Development costs higher on a 76 than a COBO? Maybe so how about the LMS twins? is this more of an appropriate comparison? Dont forget that you can measure up, scan, photograph and prod if necessary a preserved 76, the LMS twins were scrapped 50 years ago. What's more they had detail differences, limited geographic and time line appeal, not to mention are physically bigger models with additional axles and etched numbers. They're still £40 cheaper though, As for this business of every single variation possible, apart from livery and MU cables were are all these variations you allude to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 Whatever the excuses reasons for the high price of the 76 all I can say is thank goodness Bachmann are doing the Blue Pullman.. I don't think I could have afforded one by OT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I say this with the greatest of respect and I dont mean to tell you what to do or start an arguement by the way! Don't worry I'm not looking for arguments and won't take offence! If you are happy with the loco and the price then by all means buy as many as you like and enjoy them! :-) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Whatever the excuses reasons for the high price of the 76 all I can say is thank goodness Bachmann are doing the Blue Pullman.. I don't think I could have afforded one by OT I think there's going to be a lot of people thinking just that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 in answer to some of your points: How is it not high risk - simple you've got market research from surveys conducted yearly where your potential customer base say what they want and how many they'd be prepared to buy. I'd say that cuts down risk somewhat. No especially. It means there's a potential market there based on market research, however the RMWeb MREmag (genuine brainfart typo there) surveys were fatally flawed for years... A big deposit indicates it's high risk? - no it indicates they aren't prepared to stand by there product and meet it's development costs themselves. If that doesn't indicate a high risk factor for the project to you, then I'll just stand here shaking my head. If you had a Ford Mondeo would you be happy to pay Ford a deposit for your next car before it entered production and before you'd seen one because Ford wanted you to cover some of their R and D costs? Sorry, apple and oranges again... And things like this are more common than you know. Development costs higher on a 76 than a COBO? Maybe so how about the LMS twins? is this more of an appropriate comparison? Dont forget that you can measure up, scan, photograph and prod if necessary a preserved 76, the LMS twins were scrapped 50 years ago. What's more they had detail differences, limited geographic and time line appeal, not to mention are physically bigger models with additional axles and etched numbers. They're still £40 cheaper though, Presence of a real life prototype could ironically push up your costs (that laser scanning isn't a freebie you know). I'd still say that the LMS Twins probably have less involved with their tooling than the 76. i don't doubt that Dapol could have produced the 76 for Hatton's at a cheaper price point than Heljan did the 76 for Olivia's, but there's a whole different set of parameters that are being played about with here. As for this business of every single variation possible, apart from livery and MU cables were are all these variations you allude to? i seem to recall there's some variation on brake equipment which mixes that up a little bit further, but the main one is Tommy over and above the two obvious variations. The 28 has two variants being produced, full stop (and i seem to recall that this requires a permenant modification to the tooling rather than Olivia's 76 which gives them the ability to keep making all variants. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 1 - however the RMWeb surveys were fatally flawed for years... 2 - i don't doubt that Dapol could have produced the 76 for Hatton's at a cheaper price point than Heljan did the 76 for Olivia's, but there's a whole different set of parameters that are being played about with here. Point 1 - What are you talking about? RMweb has only jointly promoted a wishlist poll this year (after the 76 was announced). Point 2 - Now you're making assumptions about costs; I actually doubt that Dapol's production costs would be anything lower than Heljan's (based on knowledge of materials used). Anyway; can you please stop blending apples and oranges to make tomato juice? I'm another person who has chosen not to purchase an item I view as being less perfect than it should be for the price it is being retailed at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Frobisher, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. For me they're overpriced. I won't be buying any and I believe I won't be alone in that. I also believe that if we as a group of consumers go along blindly with pricing such as this we'd all better get good at scratch building again, because it'll be too bloody expensive to buy many models anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Think about it. A co-bo is bigger (tools are costed on size and it's far from proportional) a class 76 needs one bogie designing, the co bo needs 2, adding rivets to a mould is little more than CNC drilling a load of holes in the tool. Sorry but a class 76 is going to cost way way less than a co-bo without any doubt at all. The size difference itself would make it so let alone the need for 2 different bogies and all the associated design of the gearing. Sorry Frobisher but if you think the 76 should cost anything like a co-bo to tool you are miles off. As for some of your other points, do you know for a fact that the real loco was scanned? If it was how is it SO wrong? I don't think it's fair you pick on gronk for assuming something then tell him 'this is more common than you know'. How on earth do you know what he does and doesn't know? I'm sorry but reading these last few pages you have really come across as a know it all who knows nothing. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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