Hroth Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Rainhill Rocket doesn't have anything at the "front" end to couple or buffer to, so one leg of the race must have been run in reverse, propelling the load. Rocket was modified soon after to lower the cylinders and provide buffering at the front end, looking more like Northumbrian as can be seen in its "as preserved" condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephenson's_Rocket In the recreation of the Rainhill Trials the replica Rocket can be seen running in reverse, rather than being turned. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppercap Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 On 11/01/2020 at 18:40, papagolfjuliet said: On which point, does anybody know what became of the working Rocket replica built in the US in 1923 for the Buster Keaton film 'Our Hospitality'? I wouldn't go as far as say it was a 'working' replica, in that it clearly wasn't a proper working 'steam locomotive', despite 'steam' and smoke issuing from appropriate places. There doesn't appear to be any valve mechanisms, which can clearly be seen on the genuinely working Rocket replicas. Quite what actually moved Buster Keaton's Rocket along is not obvious though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2020 11 hours ago, Coppercap said: Quite what actually moved Buster Keaton's Rocket along is not obvious though. Nor is it clear how the train stayed on that "interesting" standard of track laying. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 11 hours ago, Coppercap said: I wouldn't go as far as say it was a 'working' replica, in that it clearly wasn't a proper working 'steam locomotive', despite 'steam' and smoke issuing from appropriate places. There doesn't appear to be any valve mechanisms, which can clearly be seen on the genuinely working Rocket replicas. Quite what actually moved Buster Keaton's Rocket along is not obvious though. Possibly a "tender drive" mechanism. I believe in the "LNER Centenary" celebrations of 1925 the replica of Locomotion had a petrol engine driving the tender and a sort of kettle arrangement in the "boiler" to provide steam and smoke effects. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 11 hours ago, Coppercap said: I wouldn't go as far as say it was a 'working' replica, in that it clearly wasn't a proper working 'steam locomotive', despite 'steam' and smoke issuing from appropriate places. There doesn't appear to be any valve mechanisms, which can clearly be seen on the genuinely working Rocket replicas. Quite what actually moved Buster Keaton's Rocket along is not obvious though. Given it is a prop for a film, I would agree that it must be some form of light weight model. Note you see them pushing the loco on the coaches at the start of the film. Which would not be so easy with the real Rocket that weighed something like 4 tons. I know Buster Keaton took a lot of risks but here you have actors doing stunts between the loco and tender and other dangerous things. A 4 tonne loco would kill you out right if you misjudged the moment. I suspect the rails actually go down hill slightly and the loco simple rolls down it which could explain why you see people pushing it to join the train (up hill) at the start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) I'm pretty sure Buster Keaton's Rocket was a lightweight petrol-engined replica. It certainly looks light when you watch it bouncing around on the track. It can't have been a tender drive, because the first time you see it moving (around 14:21 in the version on YouTube) the loco pulls away from the tender slightly, it's clearly not a fixed coupling. But, also, the close-up of the engineer shows him pulling on a lever that's nothing like a steam regulator, but does look very similar to a typical floor-mounted gearstick on a 1920s car. So I suspect that it was built around a modified car mechanism. https://youtu.be/cRNObtP_Fgo?t=861 That would, in any case, be consistent with Keaton's other movies. He used modified cars a lot, so it wouldn't have been much of a departure for his set builders to put one on rails. And as for staying on the track, they just edited out the times it didn't and took as many goes as necessary to get a take that worked! On the subject of Buster Keaton and trains (and modified cars), here's a scene from one of his classic shorts featuring both: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J21F4fbQrE Edited January 13, 2020 by MarkSG 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2020 Great bit of film there. Possibly also suitable for the level crossing thread. lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Hroth said: Possibly a "tender drive" mechanism. I believe in the "LNER Centenary" celebrations of 1925 the replica of Locomotion had a petrol engine driving the tender and a sort of kettle arrangement in the "boiler" to provide steam and smoke effects. The original Locomotion No.1 appeared in the 1925 cavalcade. The replica wasnt built until 1975. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppercap Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, MarkSG said: I'm pretty sure Buster Keaton's Rocket was a lightweight petrol-engined replica. It certainly looks light when you watch it bouncing around on the track. It can't have been a tender drive, because the first time you see it moving (around 14:21 in the version on YouTube) the loco pulls away from the tender slightly, it's clearly not a fixed coupling. But, also, the close-up of the engineer shows him pulling on a lever that's nothing like a steam regulator, but does look very similar to a typical floor-mounted gearstick on a 1920s car. So I suspect that it was built around a modified car mechanism. https://youtu.be/cRNObtP_Fgo?t=861 That would, in any case, be consistent with Keaton's other movies. He used modified cars a lot, so it wouldn't have been much of a departure for his set builders to put one on rails. And as for staying on the track, they just edited out the times it didn't and took as many goes as necessary to get a take that worked! On the subject of Buster Keaton and trains (and modified cars), here's a scene from one of his classic shorts featuring both: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J21F4fbQrE On closer inspection of various shots in both 'Our Hospitality' and 'The Iron Mule', it looks like there is a belt drive to the loco's trailing wheels, so the lever may possibly be a clutch lever of sorts, and as the train appears to have almost a fixed speed once moving, it suggests there is a hidden engine in the 'boiler' or 'firebox' running at a fixed speed. Edited January 13, 2020 by Coppercap 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 The dog running behind it doesn't look like a real dog either. Goes to show how clever they were at the time with very little technological expertise and probably quite a small budget compared with the blockbusters. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppercap Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 18 hours ago, birdseyecircus said: Does anyone know if Rocket type locos ever ran tender first or were they turned on some early turntable design? Just curious. Paul Seems they were turned on turntables, though this is, I believe, an engine shed. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Small turntables similar to wagon turntables were very common on the L&M. Besides it went from one place to another through what was mostly countryside at the time. I seriously doubt they travelled thirty odd miles going backwards. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I think Sans Pareil with a set of 3 blue open coaches would make a great follow on set next year. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2020 This page shows Liverpool Road Station with the painting and plan showing numerous turntables where locos could be turned, no doubt like the image above by splitting the loco and tender. A lot of manual handling for that and the wagons on the turntables. Liverpool Road Station Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 33 minutes ago, JSpencer said: I think Sans Pareil with a set of 3 blue open coaches would make a great follow on set next year. This may be sacrilege to some, but I usually think of Sans Pareil as 86214, so the 3 'opens' would be Mk2F TSOs. On a more topical note, what track would have been used then? I guess this would have to be scratchbuilt because bullhead would have been way off in the future? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2020 In 2001 I visited the B&O museum in Baltimore, inside the roundhouse was a full size Rocket. Was this a UK version visiting or their own Replica ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 13, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2020 36 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: This page shows Liverpool Road Station with the painting and plan showing numerous turntables where locos could be turned, no doubt like the image above by splitting the loco and tender. A lot of manual handling for that and the wagons on the turntables. Liverpool Road Station Quite cheap labour back then though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 25 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said: This may be sacrilege to some, but I usually think of Sans Pareil as 86214, so the 3 'opens' would be Mk2F TSOs. On a more topical note, what track would have been used then? I guess this would have to be scratchbuilt because bullhead would have been way off in the future? Hi Pete, Rails were usually three feet long wrought iron forgings with a fish belly profile to them with the head being of similar shape to the top of a bullhead rail. These rails were mounted in cast iron chairs, upon square stone blocks using wedged keys to secure them. Ballasting was usually to the top of the rail head or to just under the head of the rail so track work in that case wouldn't be too much of a problem, stub points might be a different matter ! Some early standard gauge railways were built using the Brunel / GWR baulk road system also. An interesting book to look up is, Early Railways, A Guide For The Modeller, by Peter Chatham and Stephen Weston. Gibbo. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, adb968008 said: In 2001 I visited the B&O museum in Baltimore, inside the roundhouse was a full size Rocket. Was this a UK version visiting or their own Replica ? There are two north American based replicas - Wiki says one is currently at the Henry Ford Museum, the other at Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, boxbrownie said: Quite cheap labour back then though Either that or a huge amount of overpaid office jobs had yet to be created ?!?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 14, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2020 In the Bailey & Glithero book it cites the reasons for Rockets design as a 2-2-0 due to weight reduction and difficulties with friction in contemporary 0-4-0 designs because of difficulty getting the tight tolerances required. Rocket didn’t acquire a front coupling & buffing gear until early 1831 during rebuilding from an accident in Olive Mount Cutting. This coincided with lowering the cylinders to increase stability. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 With all the excitement about Hornby's new rocket I decided to take my 1982 version out of my display cabinet and try to resuscitate it. It is not as robust as my Tri-ang Princess or my Hornby Dublo Barnstaple so it has not stood the test of time very well. The clip retaining the chimney stay has broken and on full power the wheels would only turn with a helping hand. It was difficult to dismantle for servicing but after clearing the carbon from the commutator and a light oiling it is running under its own steam on a short piece of track. I hope to give it a run at the model railway club on Thursday. I was hoping to upgrade it to a new Rocket but if mine still runs I will carry on running it until the new one becomes available. It will be interesting to compare the two models. 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I had that set, but unfortunately lost it when I moved in 2013, along with APT as well. Darn. The paint finish did look a lot better than the earlier plastic finish of the 1960s examples even if they were basically the same models. I picked up a fourth coach and renamed it 'TRAVELLER' in near matching red letters (Tangley Transfers?). I note they didn't get a join across the barrel end, possibly the only obvious advantage of the new version. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2020 The timber for Rockets wheels was supplied by, Cuthbert Burnup What an appropriate surname! 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 I attempted to run my 1982 version of the Rocket at the Wimborne club night. It struggled with three coaches because the rear axle of the Rocket was so stiff that the wheels did not revolve. A couple of others have had problems with the Rocket due to the motor burning out. I expect a lot of people who want to buy the 2020 version are hoping to replace their older versions. Let us hope that the new version runs better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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