New tooling - BR Standard 2MT 2-6-0 2MT 78xxx

[GreatWesternFan220]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Have you checked your spam folder - sometimes they treat anything from a source which has multiple addressees on its email lists as spam.

Yes and I've also been frequently checking the website as well. Still saying "Due into stock December 2023".

[philsandy]

9 hours ago, GreatWesternFan220 said:

I, too, am still waiting for my preorder from Hattons to be processed. I noticed other retailers had been receiving their quantities of the model throughout that week as well and have been keeping a close eye on my inbox in anticipation for the "Order Processed" email however I'm not in too much of a rush for it to arrive across the pond; It'll get here when it gets here I suppose (It's going in the trunk anyways). I had just assumed it was the typical holiday rush which caused Hattons to fall behind the other retailers in terms of receiving 78000 and the new batch of A4s (Dublo and Main range) although we are in the last day(s) of 2023 and still no word from them regarding 78000 (and the A4s too). Could be wrong of course but that's just my theory.

 

Spoke to Hattons yesterday, they are expecting them  in the New Year.

Seems odd that some "smaller" retailers have already received them before one of the biggest retailers in the UK.

[Butler Henderson]

12 hours ago, philsandy said:

 

Spoke to Hattons yesterday, they are expecting them  in the New Year.

Seems odd that some "smaller" retailers have already received them before one of the biggest retailers in the UK.

Its happened before. Possibly a case of ticking off the most orders possible.

[VIA185]

20 hours ago, philsandy said:

 

Spoke to Hattons yesterday, they are expecting them  in the New Year.

Seems odd that some "smaller" retailers have already received them before one of the biggest retailers in the UK.

Consignment enough to fulfil several small orders but not big enough to fulfil one large order, perhaps? (CJL)

[timbo2857]

On 30/12/2023 at 21:01, philsandy said:

 

Spoke to Hattons yesterday, they are expecting them  in the New Year.

Seems odd that some "smaller" retailers have already received them before one of the biggest retailers in the UK.

It seems from recent experiences Hattons have become one of the last retailers to receive new items for some reason.

Edited January 4 by timbo2857

[timbo2857]

No sorry Hornby I can’t justify £200 for what is a small tender loco. I will stick with my two Bachmann Ivatts, they run perfectly well, and still stand up to today’s standards.  OK Hornby has a cast body, and perhaps slightly better detailing in pipework (though the standard 2mt had more to be fair), but the shiny wheel rims remind me of Dapols offerings, and there is too much brass and copper bling, which even on preserved locos would be considerably toned down. Instead of including  a snowplough, they could have gone down Accurascales route and provided a proper front bogie attachment detail to disguise that NEM coupling  hole, and you still have to fit those fiddly brake rodding like you had to 20 years ago. Perhaps I’m being picky but at this price I’m entitled to be.

Edited January 4 by timbo2857

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, timbo2857 said:

No sorry Hornby I can’t justify £200 for what is a small tender loco. I will stick with my two Bachmann Ivatts, they run perfectly well, and still stand up to today’s standards.  OK Hornby has a cast body, and perhaps slightly better detailing in pipework (though the standard 2mt had more to be fair), but the shiny wheel rims remind me of Dapols offerings, and there is too much brass and copper bling, which even on preserved locos would be considerably toned down. Instead of including  a snowplough, they could have gone down Accurascales route and provided a proper front bogie attachment detail to disguise that NEM coupling  hole, and you still have to fit those fiddly brake rodding like you had to 20 years ago. Perhaps I’m being picky but at this price I’m entitled to be.

I said similar earlier on but then succumbed to a collectors club model which with a voucher i bought for £165.  And I have to say having an example in my possession it really is a superb model.  It’s silky smooth, it’s very finely rendered and it’s powerful. Whilst they are of course different prototypes the model is an advance on the Bachmann Ivatt (of which I have 2) specifically with:-

• Better attempt to portray the inner frames between the running plates (Bachmann don’t attempt this at all)
• Better hidden loco to tender plug 
• Tender pick ups
• Provision for sound fitting
• Close Loco to tender coupling possible without modification 

Also whilst expensive it can be had for significantly less than £200 - last time I looked TMC had examples from the first batch for £175.  

[K Hatton]

1 hour ago, timbo2857 said:

No sorry Hornby I can’t justify £200 for what is a small tender loco. 

Fair comment however it is possible to find one for less elsewhere. Also agree on the front bogie attachment (my new Empire of India A4 has something similar fitted and the front coupling has irons moulded onto it - see attached picture):

 

 

Also having looked at the other main manufacturers prices £200+ seems to be where tender engined locomotives are currently settled (based on prices for their standard 4mt, 5mt, LMS 4p, GCR D11 and secr D class all being in the same ball park) 

Edited January 4 by K Hatton

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, timbo2857 said:

No sorry Hornby I can’t justify £200 for what is a small tender loco. I will stick with my two Bachmann Ivatts, they run perfectly well, and still stand up to today’s standards.  OK Hornby has a cast body, and perhaps slightly better detailing in pipework (though the standard 2mt had more to be fair), but the shiny wheel rims remind me of Dapols offerings, and there is too much brass and copper bling, which even on preserved locos would be considerably toned down. Instead of including  a snowplough, they could have gone down Accurascales route and provided a proper front bogie attachment detail to disguise that NEM coupling  hole, and you still have to fit those fiddly brake rodding like you had to 20 years ago. Perhaps I’m being picky but at this price I’m entitled to be.

 

And how much do you think those Ivatts would cost if they make anymore?

 

Clue. This is the price of the Ivatt 2-6-2T which by your definition is only a small tank engine.

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/lms-ivatt-2mt-tank-41227-br-lined-black-(british-railways)/31-443

 

Don't look at how much Bachmann are charging for DMUs and EMUs as you might have a seizure!

 

 

Jason

[Hilux5972]

9 hours ago, K Hatton said:

Also agree on the front bogie attachment (my new Empire of India A4 has something similar fitted and the front coupling has irons moulded onto it - see attached picture):

 

That must be a fairly recent change Hornby made to the A4. All of mine I had bought in the past had no option of front coupling on the bogie. Nice to see that’s changed. Gives the option for preserved reverse running. 

[jjnewitt]

10 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I said similar earlier on but then succumbed to a collectors club model which with a voucher i bought for £165.  And I have to say having an example in my possession it really is a superb model.  It’s silky smooth, it’s very finely rendered and it’s powerful. Whilst they are of course different prototypes the model is an advance on the Bachmann Ivatt (of which I have 2) specifically with:-

• Better attempt to portray the inner frames between the running plates (Bachmann don’t attempt this at all)
• Better hidden loco to tender plug 
• Tender pick ups
• Provision for sound fitting
• Close Loco to tender coupling possible without modification 

Also whilst expensive it can be had for significantly less than £200 - last time I looked TMC had examples from the first batch for £175.  

 

It's not all an advance though. There's the awful horizontal join in the boiler that's completely put me off buying one. A cutout for a motor block isn't great (especially when it could conceivably go in the tender via a cardan shaft with the enclosed nature of the 2MT cabs) but is less obtrusive than the horizontal join all the way along. It doesn't work for me at all.

 

Justin

[philsandy]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

And how much do you think those Ivatts would cost if they make anymore?

 

Clue. This is the price of the Ivatt 2-6-2T which by your definition is only a small tank engine.

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/lms-ivatt-2mt-tank-41227-br-lined-black-(british-railways)/31-443

 

Don't look at how much Bachmann are charging for DMUs and EMUs as you might have a seizure!

 

 

Jason

 

Just read the review of the Bachmann 4-CEP EMU.  Very nice looking model, you'll get 5p change from £550!

 

[timbo2857]

15 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

And how much do you think those Ivatts would cost if they make anymore?

 

Clue. This is the price of the Ivatt 2-6-2T which by your definition is only a small tank engine.

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/lms-ivatt-2mt-tank-41227-br-lined-black-(british-railways)/31-443

 

Don't look at how much Bachmann are charging for DMUs and EMUs as you might have a seizure!

 

 

Jason

The prices that Bachmann are charging for older tooling models are ridiculous. Though you could probably pick up a very decent second hand Ivatt for less than £100.  In comparison You can get an Accurascale Manor from Bure Valley Models for £135 that’s what I call value. I haven’t bought a new model from Bachmann in a while now for that very reason, and Hornby, up until very recently have fell behind in the quality of new models. 

Edited January 5 by timbo2857

[timbo2857]

4 hours ago, philsandy said:

 

Just read the review of the Bachmann 4-CEP EMU.  Very nice looking model, you'll get 5p change from £550!

 

A good job I don’t need one then...I moaned about the price of the Class 117 when it first came out, even though I eventually bought one, but that’s ridiculous.

[timbo2857]

16 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I said similar earlier on but then succumbed to a collectors club model which with a voucher i bought for £165.  And I have to say having an example in my possession it really is a superb model.  It’s silky smooth, it’s very finely rendered and it’s powerful. Whilst they are of course different prototypes the model is an advance on the Bachmann Ivatt (of which I have 2) specifically with:-

• Better attempt to portray the inner frames between the running plates (Bachmann don’t attempt this at all)
• Better hidden loco to tender plug 
• Tender pick ups
• Provision for sound fitting
• Close Loco to tender coupling possible without modification 

Also whilst expensive it can be had for significantly less than £200 - last time I looked TMC had examples from the first batch for £175.  

That was the only downer for me was the loco to tender connection on the Ivatt, but these were easily disguised with some black paint.

[Bulleidboy100]

47 minutes ago, timbo2857 said:

A good job I don’t need one then...I moaned about the price of the Class 117 when it first came out, even though I eventually bought one, but that’s ridiculous.

I bought the Bachmann 31-425A Class 411 CEP 4 Car EMU – BR Green for £64.95 in early 2013, new from one of the large outlets. So even in ten years, that's quite an increase - even if you do get 5p change from £550!

Sorry, that was going off at a tangent, I do have the Hornby Standard Class 2 MT bought at announcement price - so to me - a good deal.

Edited January 5 by Bulleidboy100

[Ian Hargrave]

7 hours ago, jjnewitt said:

 

It's not all an advance though. There's the awful horizontal join in the boiler that's completely put me off buying one. A cutout for a motor block isn't great (especially when it could conceivably go in the tender via a cardan shaft with the enclosed nature of the 2MT cabs) but is less obtrusive than the horizontal join all the way along. It doesn't work for me at all.

 

Justin

Now that is an interesting hypothesis.I assume you are using Roco’sHO models as an example ? Though I’m afraid advocating tender drive on this forum is akin to heresy,especially with the accompanying traction tyres which one assumes would be necessary for the 78XXX  ?  I’ve been having long hard looks under bright lighting at that “awful horizontal join “ today but I regret to say that IMHO that is somewhat of an exaggeration and in no way offends.But of course that is a value judgment as must yours be. Bear in mind that this is a quite small model that requires gimlet eyes to locate details. The problem I have with this model is the drawbar connection which I personally failed to shorten due to ( a ) eyesight ( b ) arthritic fingers & ( c ) non magnetic,poorly designed screws.I’m not in any case certain that it would in any case have been a practical setting on my tracks. 

    
     That said,I think this is a cracking little beast that both looks the part and performs well. Too expensive ? Can this argument prevail in the current climate and state of the economy ?  The price is what it is. You don’t wish to pay ?Walk away.  

 

[Butler Henderson]

More of a issue IMO is the lack of a boiler cladding joint on top

Edited January 5 by Butler Henderson

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, timbo2857 said:

The prices that Bachmann are charging for older tooling models are ridiculous. Though you could probably pick up a very decent second hand Ivatt for less than £100.  In comparison You can get an Accurascale Manor from Bure Valley Models for £135 that’s what I call value. I haven’t bought a new model from Bachmann in a while now for that very reason, and Hornby, up until very recently have fell behind in the quality of new models. 

 

But you are using sale prices as examples.  The Hornby ones are brand new!

 

How much do you think the Hornby model will be selling for in a few months time.....

 

 

Rather than give them a bit of credit and say they've just made one of the best RTR models ever made, some just want to moan and complain about Hornby.....

 

Shiny wheels like Lima? Where? Mine don't have them!

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

52 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

More of a issue IMO is the lack of a boiler cladding joint on top

 

Yet when they model that someone will complain that it's where the mould lines are.....

 

 

Jason

[jjnewitt]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Now that is an interesting hypothesis.I assume you are using Roco’sHO models as an example ? Though I’m afraid advocating tender drive on this forum is akin to heresy,especially with the accompanying traction tyres which one assumes would be necessary for the 78XXX  ?  I’ve been having long hard looks under bright lighting at that “awful horizontal join “ today but I regret to say that IMHO that is somewhat of an exaggeration and in no way offends.But of course that is a value judgment as must yours be. Bear in mind that this is a quite small model that requires gimlet eyes to locate details. The problem I have with this model is the drawbar connection which I personally failed to shorten due to ( a ) eyesight ( b ) arthritic fingers & ( c ) non magnetic,poorly designed screws.I’m not in any case certain that it would in any case have been a practical setting on my tracks. 

    
     That said,I think this is a cracking little beast that both looks the part and performs well. Too expensive ? Can this argument prevail in the current climate and state of the economy ?  The price is what it is. You don’t wish to pay ?Walk away.  

 

 

Each to their own. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me and I don't recall having seen joins like that on the prototype (another heretical term no doubt). I have a lot of time for Hornby and their steam locos. In terms of looks I think they generally make the finest models. Their greens can be a bit odd and they don't get everything right and but no one does, despite what Accurascale will try and tell you. I'll pass on this one though. 

 

It's a fairly simple arrangement; motor in the tender, gearbox in the firebox and a cardan shaft in between. Not uncommon in the finescale world (yet another heresy) where people make chassis for their locos. The RTR boys have had plenty of experience of this arrangement in their diesels. It strikes me that the 2MTs are the perfect locos to do this with. The enclosed cab will hide pretty much everything. The boiler can be stuffed full of ballast so it'll haul more and there would be no need for the unprototypical join in the boiler.

 

Justin

[MikeParkin65]

Both excellent models of their prototype.  I do think the Hornby 2mt demonstrates the ever higher standards expected by the market in the 16 years since Bachmann launched their Ivatt 2mt. According to my records I paid £63.99 for 46443 from The Signal Box at Warley in 2011. 

[Daddyman]

7 minutes ago, jjnewitt said:

 

Each to their own. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me and I don't recall having seen joins like that on the prototype (another heretical term no doubt). I have a lot of time for Hornby and their steam locos. In terms of looks I think they generally make the finest models. Their greens can be a bit odd and they don't get everything right and but no one does, despite what Accurascale will try and tell you. I'll pass on this one though. 

 

It's a fairly simple arrangement; motor in the tender, gearbox in the firebox and a cardan shaft in between. Not uncommon in the finescale world (yet another heresy) where people make chassis for their locos. The RTR boys have had plenty of experience of this arrangement in their diesels. It strikes me that the 2MTs are the perfect locos to do this with. The enclosed cab will hide pretty much everything. The boiler can be stuffed full of ballast so it'll haul more and there would be no need for the unprototypical join in the boiler.

 

Justin

Not even that is necessary, Justin: Bachmann felt no need to split the chassis and boiler in the way Hornby have chosen to do, resulting in the gash (which has also stopped me buying it). Hornby's motivation seems to be the desire to get more weight in, probably having been pestered by people who want Class 2 locos to haul express-length trains. The haulage on Bachmann's was well within prototypical without the need for all this diecast junk that Hornby have gone in for.  

 

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

15 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

Not even that is necessary, Justin: Bachmann felt no need to split the chassis and boiler in the way Hornby have chosen to do, resulting in the gash (which has also stopped me buying it). Hornby's motivation seems to be the desire to get more weight in, probably having been pestered by people who want Class 2 locos to haul express-length trains. The haulage on Bachmann's was well within prototypical without the need for all this diecast junk that Hornby have gone in for.  

 

 

 

Though Bachmann have found it necessary to stick the gearbox above the middle driver thus requiring a solid block where there is daylight on the prototype.  And no attempt to suggest the frames which are very visible on the prototype.  And undersized drivers.  
 

We see what we want to with models and, if we are ‘half full’ rather than ‘half empty’ accept the compromises necessary to bring models to market at reasonable cost.  

[Wheatley]

The issue with the boiler joint is not so much that it's there, but that it's out by about 0.5mm. That isn't much but it's enough to create a stepped joint and catch the light. Zoom in on Mike's photo above and you'll see. 

 

Personally I'm ignoring it (thejoin not the loco) - it knocks the DJH kit into a cocked hat. The other perceived faults I can fix with a paintbrush.