Accurascale's First Steam Locomotive; GWR Collett 78xx Manor Class!

[Cofga]

On 04/10/2023 at 12:08, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Have you checked in the tender as it sounds like its dead shorting through the tenders wheels,are they to ground or reversed in polarity?

I am just testing my new Anthony Manor (arrived last night) and it does the same thing. Lift the tender off the rails and it slows down. So there seems to be some interaction with the circuit board. I plan to eventually gut the tender and hardwire a decoder which will bypass the circuit board entirely—it will be interesting to see how this changes. Right now I have given it a few test runs straight out of the box and it is in the midst of a 1 hour break-in run. I measured track voltage and it appears the loco begins to move at about 1.7-1.8VDC—will that change without the circuit board? Will it run slower? I also wonder how slow speed ops would change if the DC pickups are connected directly to the motor, bypassing the circuit board? Of course you would lose the firebox flicker effect but maybe that is part of this interaction—Larry

Edited October 5, 2023 by Cofga

[IOW O2]

1 hour ago, Cofga said:

I am just testing my new Anthony Manor (arrived last night) and it does the same thing. Lift the tender off the rails and it slows down. So there seems to be some interaction with the circuit board. 

Hmm.

[New Haven Neil]

On 03/10/2023 at 23:55, 57xx said:

Using my ECM Compspeed (DC with PWM)

 

That's why it growls.  Horrid noisy controllers, although they used to give good slow speed control on more crude motors.  Time to trade up.

[57xx]

9 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

That's why it growls.  Horrid noisy controllers, although they used to give good slow speed control on more crude motors.  Time to trade up.

 

Yes and no, I do know that PWM can make for a noisier model . I pulled out a Hornby King, 28xx, Dapol Manor and Bachmann 4575 to compare and they were all significantly quieter. Most of the growl appears to be gearbox, you could hear it cogging at times. I'm preeeetty sure the controller was not the thing making it squeek either.

Edited October 5, 2023 by 57xx

[Harlequin]

I might be wrong about the blanking plate being electrically simple. I think I tested the wrong thing out of my big box of blanking plates. When I feel better I’ll find the correct one and try again.

 

[Izzy]

10 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

Yes and no, I do know that PWM can make for a noisier model . I pulled out a Hornby King, 28xx, Dapol Manor and Bachmann 4575 to compare and they were all significantly quieter. Most of the growl appears to be gearbox, you could hear it cogging at times. I'm preeeetty sure the controller was not the thing making it squeek either.

The smaller and more efficient a motor is (and some are now IMHO silly small) the more it will growl under DC PWM because it will have less capacity (mass) to absorb the low frequency high voltage pulses and the subsequent heat produced.

 

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I might be wrong about the blanking plate being electrically simple. I think I tested the wrong thing out of my big box of blanking plates. When I feel better I’ll find the correct one and try again.

 

Not sure if it makes any sense but I’m just wondering if somehow this is connected to the large size of the stay-alive fitted on the PCB. That the loco pickups alone can’t supply enough current to keep it topped up in addition to providing power to the motor. Unless of course it’s just the extra drag produced from physically holding the tender away from the rails?

 

Bob

[Cofga]

11 hours ago, Izzy said:

The smaller and more efficient a motor is (and some are now IMHO silly small) the more it will growl under DC PWM because it will have less capacity (mass) to absorb the low frequency high voltage pulses and the subsequent heat produced.

 

Not sure if it makes any sense but I’m just wondering if somehow this is connected to the large size of the stay-alive fitted on the PCB. That the loco pickups alone can’t supply enough current to keep it topped up in addition to providing power to the motor. Unless of course it’s just the extra drag produced from physically holding the tender away from the rails?

 

Bob

Not likely, as it does it on DC and DCC, even with no stay alive functionality. I tested Anthony (DCC ready) and it growls a lot in one direction at slow speed but is quiet in the other so I suspect the gearbox. Will it quiet down after some extended running? However I also have not completely discounted the motor and PWM interactions. Maybe some fiddling with the drive algorithm could quiet it more. 

[Harlequin]

45 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Not likely, as it does it on DC and DCC, even with no stay alive functionality. I tested Anthony (DCC ready) and it growls a lot in one direction at slow speed but is quiet in the other so I suspect the gearbox. Will it quiet down after some extended running? However I also have not completely discounted the motor and PWM interactions. Maybe some fiddling with the drive algorithm could quiet it more. 

Yes, I’ve been wondering about that. I have many locos that exhibit a similar growl during slow speed under DCC control, so under PWM control. If you think about it as the motor speeds up or slows down there will be times when the motor RPM is in phase with the PWM frequency and I wonder if that’s what causes the growl.

[Cofga]

57 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Yes, I’ve been wondering about that. I have many locos that exhibit a similar growl during slow speed under DCC control, so under PWM control. If you think about it as the motor speeds up or slows down there will be times when the motor RPM is in phase with the PWM frequency and I wonder if that’s what causes the growl.

I just heard from John at YouChoos and he says he has had no trouble getting the stay alive to work with his Zimo MS580 sound decoders. Has anyone here had any luck getting theirs to work with a decoder other than the factory equipped decoder? It definitely didn’t work with the DCCconcepts decoder I tried yesterday. I still have a SoundTraxx Tsunami2 Next18 sound decoder I can try tomorrow.

 

As for the growl it was a little louder using the DCCconcepts decoder than the factory one but that is with 2 different locos. Maybe tomorrow I will pop out the factory decoder and replace it first with the DCCconcepts one and then the SoundTraxx and see the difference. I love a good mystery and this qualifies!

[Harlequin]

5 minutes ago, Cofga said:

I just heard from John at YouChoos and he says he has had no trouble getting the stay alive to work with his Zimo MS580 sound decoders. Has anyone here had any luck getting theirs to work with a decoder other than the factory equipped decoder? It definitely didn’t work with the DCCconcepts decoder I tried yesterday. I still have a SoundTraxx Tsunami2 Next18 sound decoder I can try tomorrow.

Yes, Zimo MS450 but it’s hardwired, completely replacing the PCB.

 

5 minutes ago, Cofga said:

 

As for the growl it was a little louder using the DCCconcepts decoder than the factory one but that is with 2 different locos. Maybe tomorrow I will pop out the factory decoder and replace it first with the DCCconcepts one and then the SoundTraxx and see the difference. I love a good mystery and this qualifies!

Could be due to different PWM frequencies and/or algorithms. Zimos use higher frequencies than most others, I think.

[Cofga]

23 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Yes, Zimo MS450 but it’s hardwired, completely replacing the PCB.

 

Could be due to different PWM frequencies and/or algorithms. Zimos use higher frequencies than most others, I think.

Sorry, I meant getting the stay alive on the PCB to work with a decoder other than the factory installed one. 

[Harlequin]

34 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Sorry, I meant getting the stay alive on the PCB to work with a decoder other than the factory installed one. 

Sorry, I see. So many different things to test!

 

[GRUNFOS]

Blimey, have any arrived without problems, still waiting for mine hope it will be alright!

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, GRUNFOS said:

Blimey, have any arrived without problems, still waiting for mine hope it will be alright!

I hope it is. Mine arrived with the chimney detached and in the box and bent lamp irons; both easily corrected. The drain cocks were also broken and until spares arrive I don’t feel able to judge it properly. On the plus side, the finish is beautiful and the running (it’s a DCC sound version) is fine.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Some simple technique is being ignored here in the problem solving efforts.

 

Set your meter on low range Ohms, and measure from each wheel tyre with pick up to motor terminal. If there's more impedance from loco wheels to motor terminal than from tender wheels to motor terminal, there's the cause of 'slower with tender off power'. Stepping along the conduction path, tyre, pick up wiper, plug, socket to the common point on the board for both loco and tender pick ups should enable the root cause to be determined.

 

 

'Running in'. These aren't motor vehicles which have intensive QA programmes. If you have a continuous run facility, using the smallest radius curves route give the loco 10 hours at mid speed, equally forward and reverse, with the changes at half hour intervals.

 

This does two things.

 

Fully 'exercises' the mechanism on track, such that this is likely to be as quiet and smooth running as it ever will be. There are typically readily measurable gains in slow speed crawl capability, quietness and traction.

 

To date has been sufficient to find any 'infant mortality' in the mechanisms - mainly motors - over the past  20 years and 200 mechs (roughly half and half for friends and myself) no failures on any models which have passed this. I get this done within a week from purchase so any failures are on new purchases. Most of this on Bachmann, Hornby, Heljan products; other manufacturers, too recent and too few yet to comment.

 

I started this in response to the motor problem which led to a recall on Bach's first A1releases due to wire faults in the motor windings. My example - identified for recall but not returned - still runs as well as ever.

Edited October 7, 2023 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
typo

[Moley48]

2 hours ago, GRUNFOS said:

Blimey, have any arrived without problems, still waiting for mine hope it will be alright!

 

I would say our one is problem free. So you do stand a chance 🤞

[Gopher]

2 hours ago, GRUNFOS said:

Blimey, have any arrived without problems, still waiting for mine hope it will be alright!

Mine is fine - runs well, no broken bits, so hopefully yours will be the same

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, Moley48 said:

 

I would say our one is problem free. So you do stand a chance 🤞

Mines been in service for 3 week and still hunky dory. Weathered  and Coaled already so I'm confident! 

 I fitted my own non sound decoder. Tender Fiddle as all have said, otherwise fine.

Phil

[KeithAnthony]

Mines fine. I don't understand   pulling it apart trying to fix some obscure 'fault' - if it dosn't work send it back and help the manufacturer understand  any issues.

[Csalem]

There is always an element of people having problems more likely to post than people who don't. This true of any product or service. 

[geoffers]

FWIW - 

 

7812 "Erlestoke Manor" originally fitted with a Bachmann 36-567A Next18 decoder - worked well including stay-alive. Refitted with Accurascale's  ESU Manor sound decoder - stay-alive works, excellent sound (if a bit muted), and runs very smoothly.

 

7800 "Torquay Manor" ( non-sound) originally fitted with Zimo MN180 Next18 decoder, excellent performance but no stay-alive, then with Bachmann 36-567A, excellent performance but no stay-alive, and finallly with Accurascale's ESU LokPilot Next18 Manor decoder, excellent performance but no stay-alive. 

[Henry 84F]

My 7812 is maturing very nicely. Its slow speed is excellent on a Dapol Next18 decoder although I don't think I've seen any life from any stay-alive yet? The more I'm playing with it, the more I'm amazed with it. 

 

I've scrubbed off the OHLE warnings off 7812. Does anyone know if 7812 had an early crest whilst lined green akin to the incoming 7810 with lined fenders? If not, I'll keep it late 👍

 

Very much looking forward to Dinmore arriving in the next batch.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

I have found the DCC concepts rolling road is handy for checking wheel pick up as you can insulate differing rollers with tape over the track on differing wheels, would be easier than lifting the tender up.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

I have found the DCC concepts rolling road is handy for checking wheel pick up as you can insulate differing rollers with tape over the track on differing wheels, would be easier than lifting the tender up.

Its also good at detecting quartering issues, as the roller will start moving under the offending wheels, a badly fitted rotating axlebox on a Hattons 66 would give itself away here too.

[reddragon]

On 28/09/2023 at 11:51, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi @Stevielad,

 

I can confirm that they have left the factory and are in transit to us! FINALLY!!!!

 

We will have a clearer ETA tomorrow, but next week sometime is how it stands ATM.

 

Thank you all once again for your patience. We really appreciate it and have learned a lot on this one about going forwards.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

Fran,

 

It's been a while since your last update and seeing so many showing off their brilliant new Manors whilst I wait. You never gave an ETA or said if arrival had happened last week!