Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[Compound2632]

See also: 

 

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I would be interested but isn't it a bit weird there's no pseudo-original condition, only the early and later preservation?

 

Isn't that simply because original condition would require significantly different tooling - no haystack firebox, for example?

Edited September 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[Bucoops]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Isn't that simply because original condition would require significantly different tooling - no haystack firebox, for example?

 

That, and nobody is quite sure what it actually looked like in detail?

[Edge]

10 hours ago, BlueLightning said:

 

Not trying to put you off before anyone says anything, but Rapido are releasing it in the later condition, and doing it accurately (at least from what we have seen so far). The tender frames on the Hornby model are incorrect for the 1980s, so it does have some early features

Appreciate that - bit late for me to change my mind anyway, but I’m satisfied with what I see on the Hornby model :)

 

as alluded to on here, the detail is fine for my personal tastes and whilst I agree the Rapido model looks fantastic, I’ve also been after the L&MR rolling stock too

[Edge]

Whoops, double post for some reason 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Edge

[JSpencer]

On 29/09/2022 at 18:57, AY Mod said:

For those wishing to make an informed purchase.

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0sU5BYZKdfkQfySzScj1C2TG8CmYHMax4RY46mChfadhzRJX9BL4BDWsNbLftwkQNl&id=528285292&eav=AfbG-otjPKyBmDcvjAHM7RFXbRYEx8V8xs-TkfGH9eDzPVtebLFjdUVmH933RR-bPho&m_entstream_source=feed_mobile&paipv=0

 

Interesting.

 

I can see it now: "At Hornby, our lion covers all eras, whether you do the Liverpool & Manchester, the 1930s, or any era through to the 1980s, there will be a part to please everyone...".

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by JSpencer

[Johan DC]

They'll announce an A4 in InterCity livery next. Something for everyone...

[amwells]

24 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

They'll announce an A4 in InterCity livery next. Something for everyone...

At the risk of appearing like a ‘fanboy’, but really just for balance… do you mean like this 😂

 

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/apt-e-train-pack-intercity-swallow-livery/

[CF MRC]

I am amazed at the constant comments against Hornby with regard to details on this model. There are many good points about it such as the metal finish firebox and metal tie rods. Other extra bits that may be historically inaccurate  for the 1930 condition can easily be rectified with a scalpel, whilst a little bit of paint and weathering could really transform it’s appearance. The open final gear has been the norm for decades in model railways - only a big deal if you run on carpets.

Have we become incapable of actually doing some modelling if needed?

 

Tim
 

 

[Johan DC]

34 minutes ago, amwells said:

At the risk of appearing like a ‘fanboy’, but really just for balance… do you mean like this 😂

 

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/apt-e-train-pack-intercity-swallow-livery/

Or the Platinum/Jubilee HST, coming out these days... Not for me, but O understand the appeal! And the wider the range, the better for the Hobby.

[Coach bogie]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The interesting thing about this model - completely irrespective of any views about its origin or anything else - is that for me it somehow doesn't quite capture the fascination and majesty of the way the coupling rods are seen to move on an outside framed 4 coupled engine.  

 

I'm not sure why that is?  

Many, many years ago, my father built several k’s for ourselves and friends. The throw of the rods always looked odd at first. One friend insisted on using Romford cranks which definitely looked worse.

Light bulb lit up and we both realised that the throw of the K’s crank was longer than a Romford crank.

Having access to both full size (maternal Grandmother still lived in Liverpool, Paternal Grandmother lived in Swindon), using the best dress makers ribbon tape measure ‘borrowed’ from said Grandmothers, we measured both up during visits. Measurement have long been lost over 40 years but Lion’s throw was greater than Truro’s. Combined with the lighter/thinner cranks and rods of Lion, we concluded this is why Truro’s/Dukedogs movement appeared more elegant, than Lion which looked like it was catapulting the rods………in our opinion.

 

PS the K’s wheels and rods were retro fitted to our friends loco.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited October 1, 2022 by Coach bogie

[I.C.L. 11]

On 29/09/2022 at 21:25, Hroth said:

Perhaps someone could pop into The Museum of Liverpool and take a snap of the real thing?

Prototype photos - many detail close-ups and a few general views on flickr courtesy of the esteemed Jan Ford.

Album link - https://www.flickr.com/photos/janfordsworld/albums/72157626333680696

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by I.C.L. 11

[I.C.L. 11]

7 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

powered by a petrol engine in the tender

Lion had just been restored to steam for that event; no petrol engine needed! You are thinking of Locomotion during the Stockton & Darlington centenary cavalcade.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, CF MRC said:

I am amazed at the constant comments against Hornby with regard to details on this model. There are many good points about it such as the metal finish firebox and metal tie rods. Other extra bits that may be historically inaccurate  for the 1930 condition can easily be rectified with a scalpel, whilst a little bit of paint and weathering could really transform it’s appearance. The open final gear has been the norm for decades in model railways - only a big deal if you run on carpets.

Have we become incapable of actually doing some modelling if needed?

 

Tim
 

 

 

I wonder if distaste at some of Hornby's business practices is leaking into the appraisal of this model. I would guess that many who have a keen eye for those areas where the model falls short will have the skills to remedy them; perhaps they await the greater promise of the Rapido example?

[Hroth]

4 hours ago, I.C.L. 11 said:

Prototype photos - many detail close-ups and a few general views on flickr courtesy of the esteemed Jan Ford.

Album link - https://www.flickr.com/photos/janfordsworld/albums/72157626333680696

 

 

Nice pic, that's at the MOSI in Manchester, the blue carriages and the tender in the background belong to their working replica of Planet.

 

You have to remember that the tender to Lion is conjectural, it was built by the LMS when Lion went to Crewe for overhaul prior to the 1930 celebrations.

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Hroth
Added info about Lions tender

[Corbs]

In a similar way to how 'Allo 'Allo is an accurate portrayal of the 1980s view of the 1940s, Lion is an accurate portrayal of the 1920s view of the 1830s.... 😉

[Hroth]

Actually, its sobering to think that Lions conjectural tender is close to 100 years old, as are the remaining 1st and second class carriage reconstructions...

 

Older than some of the relics rescued from the Barry scrapyard!

 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Actually, its sobering to think that Lions conjectural tender is close to 100 years old, as are the remaining 1st and second class carriage reconstructions...

 

Back in 1930 there would have been some old hands who had started at Crewe in the 1870s and hence been trained by old hands who had worked on these 1830s engines themselves. 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I suspect that's a major factor: it's not conforming to your preconceptions. 

 

How does it feel from this bit of film, from the 1930 centenary, which seems to show a reasonable turn of speed:

 

Not too bad in the full broadside shot but not so good in the three-quarter angle shots.  And it's not so much a pre-conception as the  comparison between model and watching real outside frame engines at work.  I had al ook at some Rapido video yesterday evening and from some angles, especially broadside, it looked far better for some reason.  I suspect that speed has something to do with the impression, or rather lack of impression, created by the cranks in the Hornby video as they are as much a part of the overall impression as the coupling rods.

 

Incidentally I just typed the comment about the cranks before I read 'Coach Bogie's comments about the cranks and I think he's probably hit the nail on the head.  I suspect the Rapido one looks 'better' because it was not running as fast and it is unpainted hence the cranks don't stand out so much from the rest of the loco.  Be interesting to see what it will be like once painted

[Dana Ashdown]

On 30/09/2022 at 06:47, Obsidian Quarry said:

Or in the case of the Hornby "L&MR" goods wagons mostly fictional.

They may not be entirely fictional, as Rocket had to be provided with a tender made from an existing wagon. And the goods wagons are just reworking of the Rocket tender.

 

That said, I think the goods wagons are too expensive. One day I'll trying making one myself, after which I might have a change of heart on Hornby's price.

[JSpencer]

21 hours ago, CF MRC said:

I am amazed at the constant comments against Hornby with regard to details on this model. There are many good points about it such as the metal finish firebox and metal tie rods. Other extra bits that may be historically inaccurate  for the 1930 condition can easily be rectified with a scalpel, whilst a little bit of paint and weathering could really transform it’s appearance. The open final gear has been the norm for decades in model railways - only a big deal if you run on carpets.

Have we become incapable of actually doing some modelling if needed?

 

Tim
 

 

 

I tend to agree, however I do feel that either the manufacturer goes the route of tooling things up for several era's - which can make the end model expensive - or they model it based on the prototype as it was on a certain date (and we then take a scalpel to modify to another date IF we are that worried about accuracy).

 

Where they went wrong (I feel), was that they produced a model which is a hybrid of several eras (rather like the Fell on the KR section of the forum).

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by JSpencer

[Steamport Southport]

12 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Nice pic, that's at the MOSI in Manchester, the blue carriages and the tender in the background belong to their working replica of Planet.

 

You have to remember that the tender to Lion is conjectural, it was built by the LMS when Lion went to Crewe for overhaul prior to the 1930 celebrations.

 

 

The tender is a Furness Railway Sharp Stewart one and dates from the 1860s.

 

 

 

Jason

[Hal Nail]

On 30/09/2022 at 23:19, CF MRC said:

Have we become incapable of actually doing some modelling if needed?

I would think categorically yes. Certainly 7mm has gone that way in a very short time with the rise of r-t-r. 

 

I saw a post on detailing a loco the other day which amounted to taking a sharpie to the wheel rims. From the write up you would think it was the work of Beeson.

[jjb1970]

If people want to just run models out of the box I see nothing wrong with that. I also have no issue with collectors as without them I suspect the manufacturers would sell quite a bit less and everyone would lose. It's worth considering that some of those who just run their rolling stock are keen layout builders and scenic modellers, or enjoy working with DCC and sound to maximize the potential of those aspects of model railways. Still others upgrade and convert RTR whilst also noting inaccuracies. We could go on and on. If people build kits or scratch build locomotives or convert RTR models then great but ultimately it's a hobby and any choice that gives any individual pleasure and satisfaction is right for that person. The aspect of modelling that seems to have died off to an extent is the operator layout. When I was growing up it was quite common to see complex layouts with minimal scenery and just running RTR out of the box but operated like a full size railway.

[Ribird]

On 30/09/2022 at 01:47, BlueLightning said:

 

 

Like that? 😛

 

Gary

Whoops, I'm sorry. I guess I missed that. Thanks for not chewing me out for missing it!