Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[Helmdon]

10 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

If people want to just run models out of the box I see nothing wrong with that. I also have no issue with collectors as without them I suspect the manufacturers would sell quite a bit less and everyone would lose. It's worth considering that some of those who just run their rolling stock are keen layout builders and scenic modellers, or enjoy working with DCC and sound to maximize the potential of those aspects of model railways. Still others upgrade and convert RTR whilst also noting inaccuracies. We could go on and on. If people build kits or scratch build locomotives or convert RTR models then great but ultimately it's a hobby and any choice that gives any individual pleasure and satisfaction is right for that person. The aspect of modelling that seems to have died off to an extent is the operator layout. When I was growing up it was quite common to see complex layouts with minimal scenery and just running RTR out of the box but operated like a full size railway.

Funnily enough, that’s nearly me. I’m building what you might call a scenic operator railway. Actually, in 2 scales, I’m building two. 
 

I’m as interested as the next person in the history of locomotives and rolling stock but I most enjoy scenery building  and operating. Out of the box on the wheeled stuff suits me fine, though I have done the odd Nu Cast etc to fill the gaps in my loco fleet.

[jonnyuk]

like your layout, some nice idea's i may pinch for my new layout in the shed. Lion looks nice plodding along, looks more substantial than rocket

[Fair Oak Junction]

On 01/10/2022 at 15:36, Dana Ashdown said:

They may not be entirely fictional, as Rocket had to be provided with a tender made from an existing wagon. And the goods wagons are just reworking of the Rocket tender.

 

That said, I think the goods wagons are too expensive. One day I'll trying making one myself, after which I might have a change of heart on Hornby's price.

 

Well actually only the Hornby "L&MR" coal wagons are a re-use of the Rocket tender chassis tooling, the flat/sheep/horse wagons are all based on the coach chassis which is totally wrong for wagons of the time. In fact in one of the most perfect examples of Hornby "care and attention" they even still have the coach steps moulded on to them!

Steps, I might add, which aren't accurate for the coaches as they were in 1830s anyway.

Plus L&MR goods wagons of the 1830s were dumb buffered, or at a push leather horse hair buffered.

There is basically nothing accurate about these wagons. Hornby's definition of "Era 1" is a joke.

However if you ignore the nonsense wagons, they have at least created a decent range of 1930 L&M centenary stock which is still nice to have on the market.

 

Edit: Plus there actually pretty accurate drawings out there of the L&M coal wagons which shows they didn't look anything like Rocket's tender.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

they have at least created a decent range of 1930 L&M centenary stock which is still nice to have on the market.

 

Exactly this. If an "era" label must be used, it's "Era 3". They've done the Coronation Scot, so all that's wanted now is a George the Fifth with 57 ft toplights...

 

 

[Again!]

Edited October 3, 2022 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

 

Well actually only the Hornby "L&MR" coal wagons are a re-use of the Rocket tender chassis tooling, the flat/sheep/horse wagons are all based on the coach chassis which is totally wrong for wagons of the time. In fact in one of the most perfect examples of Hornby "care and attention" they even still have the coach steps moulded on to them!

Steps, I might add, which aren't accurate for the coaches as they were in 1830s anyway.

Plus L&MR goods wagons of the 1830s were dumb buffered, or at a push leather horse hair buffered.

There is basically nothing accurate about these wagons. Hornby's definition of "Era 1" is a joke.

However if you ignore the nonsense wagons, they have at least created a decent range of 1930 L&M centenary stock which is still nice to have on the market.

 

Edit: Plus there actually pretty accurate drawings out there of the L&M coal wagons which shows they didn't look like Rocket's tender chassis.

 

 The "flats" are Open Carriage Trucks., not wagons. The chassis having steps is correct according to contemporary accounts and paintings.

 

Many people travelled by using their own carriage in the early years of railways even well into the 20th Century.

 

 

http://www.edgehillstation.co.uk/uploads/sizer-cache/07d1f83026f797b1b2339e82c1baf1e9c6952783.jpg

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Fair Oak Junction]

Fair, I take that on board when it comes to the flats.

Although Hornby didn't exactly help by naming them flats and mentioning general merchandise wagons in the product blurb. Plus the steps are still wrong as they are based on the 1930s replica steps rather than the stirrup type fitted to the original L&M stock. And the sheep/horse wagons and coal wagons are also still wrong.

So I do still stand by my opinion on the goods stock.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Fair, I take that on board when it comes to the flats. Although Hornby didn't exactly make it clear by naming them flats. Plus the steps are still wrong as they are based on the 1930s replica steps rather than the stirrup type fitted to the original L&M stock. And the sheep/horse wagons and coal wagons are also still wrong.

So I do still stand by my opinion on the goods stock.

 

Don't but them then. Plenty will though. 

 

You could always build your own if the RTR ones aren't good enough. 

 

 

 

Jason

[Fair Oak Junction]

Honestly I don't care if people buy them or not and at no point have I said people shouldn't.

I'm just pointing out the problems with this supposedly "Era 1" range because I feel people should be able to make more informed choices.

Not to mention there are people who are very knowledgable about the L&M out there who could have been consulted, and a reasonably accurate range could have been made.

I'd be interested to see what the reaction on here would be if say Bachmann released a range of wagons that are 90% fictional. I bet so many people wouldn't leap to their defence.

But anyway this is rather off topic now so I'll leave it here.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Many people travelled by using their own carriage in the early years of railways even well into the 20th Century.

 

I don't think passengers travelled in their own carriage after the very early years. Taking one's carriage with one, and one's horses, was usual for the nobility for many years.

[Hroth]

On 02/10/2022 at 19:17, scumcat said:

Had a great run on my layout today. Posted a short video. The funniest thing is I feel I can start showing more of my layout. It’s coming along slowly. it’s taking ages but it’s all mine. Definitely rule 1 though I run whatever I feel like. It could start the debate of what’s a layout and what’s just a big train set😁

 

 

On 02/10/2022 at 19:46, jonnyuk said:

like your layout, some nice idea's i may pinch for my new layout in the shed. Lion looks nice plodding along, looks more substantial than rocket

 

Can't remember the chronology, but if you're running Lion, then Rocket should look more like the museum exhibit we have today. Passenger trains should be in the hands of at least Planets or possibly Patentees.

 

Looking at the chassis arrangement of Hornbys Lion, it shouldn't too difficult for them to produce a Patentee.

 

As all we currently have is Rocket and Lion they'll have to do!

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

Can't remember the chronology, but if you're running Lion, then Rocket should look more like the museum exhibit we have today.

 

This is irrelevant to the 1930s / 1980s / present day condition represented by the actual models, the one being a model based on a couple of reconstructions and the other being a model of a locomotive as somewhat inaccurately restored. To say nothing of the carriages...

[The Stationmaster]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This is irrelevant to the 1930s / 1980s / present day condition represented by the actual models, the one being a model based on a couple of reconstructions and the other being a model of a locomotive as somewhat inaccurately restored. To say nothing of the carriages...

I think as far as Hornby are concerned all of that is largely irrelevant because many (most?) of the people who buy these models won't have the first idea of what railways, and their equipment, were really like in Era 1.  They will sell because they are a bit different, because they are pretty, and because it says Hornby on the packaging, and in a few cases because they come with a different R number.  But in all of those cases it will of course depend on sufficient people still having the necessary disposable income to buy what are technically toys and are hardly essential to keeping warm and properly fed.

 

So for Hornby the economics are simple.  in order to produce a positive amount on the bottom line these various models  have to sell in sufficient numbers at the right prices to cover all their research & development costs, the production and distribution costs, a relevant share of overheads, and the cost of any finance used for those various elements.  if that happens they'll be happy, and if it doesn't happen there will presumably be, or ought to be, some serious questions for somebody to answer.  And they shouldn't overlook the fact that somewhere in there there will have been some related abortive expenditure as a result of their arrogantly treading on Studio Canal's toes.

[Coppercap]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't think passengers travelled in their own carriage after the very early years. Taking one's carriage with one, and one's horses, was usual for the nobility for many years.

Taking one's horseless carriage with one (or more usually, the whole family) was not unusual for the better-off lower classes until as recently as 1995...at least within the UK.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Coppercap

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Coppercap said:

Taking one's horseless carriage with one (or more usually, the whole family) was not unusual for the better-off lower classes until as recently as 1995...at least within the UK.

 

Still done, through the Chunnel.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think as far as Hornby are concerned

 

I don't doubt you are right but the RMWeb audience is more discerning, I should like to think, and capable of understanding the subtleties of what it is being offered. 

[Coppercap]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Still done, through the Chunnel.

By "within the UK", I meant journeys wholly within the UK. 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 03/10/2022 at 12:33, Obsidian Quarry said:

Plus there actually pretty accurate drawings out there of the L&M coal wagons which shows they didn't look anything like Rocket's tender.

Can you please post examples.

[The Stationmaster]

On 04/10/2022 at 10:48, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't doubt you are right but the RMWeb audience is more discerning, I should like to think, and capable of understanding the subtleties of what it is being offered. 

Couldn't agree more - but I wonder what percentage of Hornby's market they/we are for this model?   

[jonnyuk]

i don't want this to start yet another conversation about Sam's trains but i did watch his review last night so please lets not go there. I have to say seeing it up close, its a lovely loco and has a real charm about, nice detail, well built, smooth runner, good haulage capacity. 

 

Its not my think at all but i'm seriously considering it, more so than i did for the Rocket which i bought, played with for 2 days then put away and then sold as i found it boring with no sparkle.

 

Two for two i'd say for Hornby (9f), on a roll?

[Johan DC]

I saw it as well. After all his critisism (rightly so, but sometimes a bit obsesive Imho) around Titfieldgate I think he did a very balanced review. 

 

[PaulRhB]

On 03/10/2022 at 19:08, Obsidian Quarry said:

And the sheep/horse wagons and coal wagons are also still wrong.

Well it’s accepted the tenders were likely supplied by Thomas Clarke, (p21 The Engineering & History of Rocket), a maker of other L&M stock and the tender is based on the drawings of the two identical ones for Rocket & Sans Pareil shown in the 1829 poster for the trials. 
The contemporary engraving of Olive Mount cutting during construction, (p24 TE&HoR), with Rocket on a sightseeing train of the works with wagons identical in height to the tender might suggest that these were wagons used in the construction based on a similar design? So probably not coal wagons but spoil wagons and they no doubt found use after the opening too as it was very much make it up as you go in the whole operation. 
Allowing for the fact that Rocket appears in engravings between 1829 and 1836 with two different tender designs I think saying these wagons are wrong has little backup. It’s also recorded in Richard Gibbon’s book that Rocket gave rides in the test wagons up Whiston Incline during pauses in the trials. Now we have engravings of the ‘tenders’ and these were made locally for the trial so why wouldn’t you order a batch of wagons at the same time? In fact Gibbons book, Stephenson’s Rocket and the Rainhill Trials, uses a modern painting with such wagons on the cover with Rocket although they do accept the sloping firebox is wrong. 
I have quite a lot of books on the trials and L&M and can’t find anything definitive about the trials wagons design. Vehicles we do know existed appear in a variety of interpretations in different engravings and at least one contemporary engraving shows the tender with broadly similar wagons too so I don’t think they are that great a jump in logic although probably not coal wagons which are shown as chaldron types in most engravings. 

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Well it’s accepted the tenders were likely supplied by Thomas Clarke, (p21 The Engineering & History of Rocket), a maker of other L&M stock 

 

That should be Thomas Clarke Worsdell, the grandfather of T.W. and Wilson, successive locomotive superintendents of the North Eastern Railway. Some of the latter's locomotives were among the last steam locomotives at work on BR(NE) so the family's work can be said to have spanned pretty well the entire history of main line steam in Britain.

 

T.C. Worsdell was not simply a supplier of rolling stock to the L&M but was the company's Superintendent of Coaching, in charge of the Crown Street works as well as being responsible for rolling stock design, from 1828 until 1837. Indeed his son Nathaniel recorded being present at a meeting between Worsdell and George Stephenson in 1828, at which between them they drew up the design of the first railway carriage. Worsdell had previously had a business as a road coach builder in Liverpool.

 

Rocket's tender was built in the Crown Street works following a request from Robert Stephenson to Henry Booth, the company secretary, as Worsdell's men would, in Stephenson's opinion, make a neater job of it than would his own. Is it perhaps not improbable that they would have based the design around existing components?

 

It seems odd that a publication from so scholarly a body as the Science Museum should so mangle Worsdell's name.

 

[G. Hill, The Worsdells - a Quaker Engineering Dynasty (The Transport Publishing Co., 1991).] 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Compound2632

[PaulRhB]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Rocket's tender was built in the Crown Street works following a request from Robert Stephenson to Henry Booth, the company secretary, as Worsdell's men would, in Stephenson's opinion, make a neater job of it than would his own. Is it perhaps not improbable that they would have based the design around existing components?

Yes coming up with a unique design seems highly unlikely which is why I think they are misnamed rather than wrong especially when there are references and similar wagons in contemporary pictures 😉 

My own personal leaning is that they were the trials wagons used for spoil during construction. Considering the damage and consequent rebuilding of Rocket during that period I should think the wagons were modified and patched up too making a motley collection by the opening of the line and probable use for a variety of purposes in the early days while they figured out what they needed and made further contracts on lessons learnt. 

 

[Tony Cane]

Good history of lion and its restoration here

 

 

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

Good history of lion and its restoration here

 

From a source that can be trusted.