KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[jjb1970]

As an act of goodwill I will draft something for KR which they are free to cut and paste into an e-mail to their customers:

 

We'd like to thank all those who have pre-ordered our model of the Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon', which is now almost ready for production. When we launched this model we said it would have working valve gear, unfortunately we have had to alter the specification to only partly working valve gear. We know this will disappoint our customers, and we are just as disappointed as you are, however despite the best efforts of our designers and the factory which is manufacturing the model we have been unable to find a solution which is suitable for a mass produced model, or that can be produced for a price which we would feel comfortable with. We want our models to be used on layouts, which means they need to be reliable and suitable for normal handling without breaking. Our factory would be able to make such valve gear at a high cost or if we were to make the gear much heavier, but we know our customers want a finely detailed model. Given all options, we have reluctantly concluded that the best way forward is to have a partly working valve gear, this will allow us to offer a finely detailed model which will our customers will be able to operate on their layouts at a price we are comfortable with. We know this is not what we offered customers, therefore any of you wishing to cancel pre-orders may do so and receive a full refund. Hopefully you will stay with us as this is going to be a fantastic model but we understand that it was our error in offering something which we have been unable to deliver.

 

There you go. I'm not in customer service or communications, if I can knock out something surely a model manufacturer can do it.

[Colin_McLeod]

5 hours ago, Amaziii said:

This one?
 

 

 

A nice clear video like this one from KR Models would have saved several pages of detective work on this thread.

 

Can we have such a video of Bellerophon Keith and Michael Revell?

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Amaziii said:

This one?

 

That's superb modelling but not the one I was thinking of, which had the complete loco with servo-operated reverser.

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Amaziii said:

That would genuinely push new models to a higher standard, and it could very well be possible with the right engineering. I love this idea, and I'm already dreaming about the day it will be a reality 🤤

The interesting development which it would facilitate is to get towards really accurate steam sound because at the moment the big issue (for me) with it is that the cut-off remains fixed so at higher speeds teh exhaust note is wrong.  Quite a technical challenge but it has (perhaps only in some respects?) been done already in Gauge 1 bya German company so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

[No Decorum]

39 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The interesting development which it would facilitate is to get towards really accurate steam sound because at the moment the big issue (for me) with it is that the cut-off remains fixed so at higher speeds teh exhaust note is wrong.  Quite a technical challenge but it has (perhaps only in some respects?) been done already in Gauge 1 bya German company so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

In the sound project for the Victory Class, F5 alters the sound to 60% cut off, which is probably quite reasonable for a shunter. I don’t think I’ve come across a feature like that before; a coasting setting has been the nearest. I agree, though, that an express loco would require more steps. How many is difficult to say as winding up is almost continuous. Tornado’s exhaust is said to be disconcertingly soft at high speed when the loco is well linked up.

 

It’s curious when I reflect about it all. I’m as keen as anybody to see wotking valve gear, yet it’s a model’s wheels and motion which drive the piston rod, which is exactly the opposite of how the real thing works.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 minute ago, No Decorum said:

 

 

It’s curious when I reflect about it all. I’m as keen as anybody to see wotking valve gear, yet it’s a model’s wheels and motion which drive the piston rod, which is exactly the opposite of how the real thing works.

 

Apparently not the case with the Shay however, which KR also claims has working external valve gear. 

 

The motor drives the cylinder assembly somehow and the bogies are driven off that by the drive shafts, rather than the other way round which is how other Shay models like the MDC Roundhouse one do it.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Apparently not the case with the Shay however, which KR also claims has working external valve gear. 

 

The motor drives the cylinder assembly somehow and the bogies are driven off that by the drive shafts, rather than the other way round which is how other Shay models like the MDC Roundhouse one do it.

The Bachmann Spectrum  HO 2 truck Shay definitely has the visible part of the valve gear working.  The  eccentric rods driving the valves work and the visible part of the valves also move - visible at 2.01 in the video linked below. 

 

 

[Halvarras]

I think I've cracked it - valve gear manufactured in titanium and a £500 RRP...........hmmm, that doesn't look so clever now I've put it in writing. I'd better delete this post.......avoid the 'Submit Reply' button.......d'oh!!

[friscopete]

I had a SpectrumH0  shay and after new NWSL gears it ran perfectly  .It ran  perfectly OK with the rear truck with side shaft  gears  removed as they were the cracked gears  the rest were OK but I changed them all out .Dont follow the NWSL instructions there is a much easier way of doing it .Of course I sold it  and now just have a MDC terror which does run well after some NWSL gears and a lot of fiddling .A bit more design thought and it would have been a fine model .The KR shay looks great but I prefer older style  shays .Its a bit modern for me .Paragon are bringing out a 4 truck which I wount be able to afford any way .

Edited June 3, 2023 by friscopete

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

I think I've cracked it - valve gear manufactured in titanium and a £500 RRP...........hmmm, that doesn't look so clever now I've put it in writing. I'd better delete this post.......avoid the 'Submit Reply' button.......d'oh!!

Why not?

Even better go for 3D printed titanium. It should be possible to make it to scale and make it work. It will need the tolerances opening up on the holes. but it should be possible to get it running without too much visible wobble. I don't think that ypur £500 will be enough though. 😀

Bernard

[Nile]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's superb modelling but not the one I was thinking of, which had the complete loco with servo-operated reverser.

Try this one:

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Nile said:

Try this one

 

That's the one. It all looks so straightforward you wonder why every 7 mm scale steam loco doesn't have a working reverser. 

[Schooner]

Argh, look what you've gone and done @Compound2632!

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Schooner
Unneccesary choice of words rectified

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Why not?

Even better go for 3D printed titanium. It should be possible to make it to scale and make it work. It will need the tolerances opening up on the holes. but it should be possible to get it running without too much visible wobble. I don't think that ypur £500 will be enough though. 😀

Bernard

 

Shows what I know about the capabilities of 3D printing - pretty much zilch. Still, hardly matters if the cost would be stratospheric (I thought I was overcooking it at £500 🥴!)

[Ribird]

Well I was one to comment on their Facebook post about their May newsletter asking about Leader, Big Bertha, and Bellerophon, in which they said to email them (instead of answering there). I emailed them (a copy and paste from Facebook), and they did respond, but in KR fashion, not to how we would have liked. For a timeline, I commented on the post when it was posted, and they replied a few hours later. Their email is as follows:

 

 

Hi R,

 

Thanks for the email.

 

What specifically did you need information on?  I am curious as you are not a customer.

 

Bellerophon has had some parts that have been improved.  The linkage has also been improved.  We also changed the motor for a better one.

 

What would you like to know about our Leader?

 

Kind Regards

 

Keith Revell

Managing Director

 

Their email reply was 7 mins later, as seen above. I emailed back an hour later “clarifying” all of my questions. 
 

Today, since I haven’t heard anything from them, I replied to my original comment showing their email. Almost immediately blocked. Not sure how their own email is grounds to be blocked by them? 

 

 

 

Edit:

-I’m “not a customer” as it seems like they deleted anyone from their emailing list of who complained on Facebook about the Torpedo wagon spam. 

-I have been told by a friend all of my comments/replies have been deleted from their page. I did email them today asking why I was blocked when it was their email I shared on their page, since they didn't want to. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Ribird

[Darius43]

All I can say is that KR Models had my support and good will in the early days but they have now lost both.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[DavidH]

9 hours ago, Ribird said:

Well I was one to comment on their Facebook post about their May newsletter asking about Leader, Big Bertha, and Bellerophon, in which they said to email them (instead of answering there). I emailed them (a copy and paste from Facebook), [...]

 

 

Whilst on the face of it, Keith's reply seems unnecessarily hostile (surely any sensible business sees a non-customer as a potential customer?), to best judge the tone of the response I would need to understand the tone of your contact with them.

[Ribird]

2 hours ago, DavidH said:

 

Whilst on the face of it, Keith's reply seems unnecessarily hostile (surely any sensible business sees a non-customer as a potential customer?), to best judge the tone of the response I would need to understand the tone of your contact with them.

As I said, it was a copy and paste from Facebook. I did add the beginning part, as I did receive emails from them and suddenly stopped. Here was my email: 

 

“Hi KR,

Here is a copy and paste from my Facebook comment on your recent newsletter update, which I never got. I must have been removed from your system for some reason without my knowledge.

“Tooling started for Big Bertha? Has any of the concerns from the original CADs been taken into account? 

Just curious, what has been updated with this new EP? Or just showing off one of the cab variations? Can there be a better video of the motion? Everyone that is out there is either broken or in dark shadows. 

Any updates on the changes needed for the Leader to be accurate?”

I have replied to your comment saying any answered questions should really be answered publicly. I’m not the only one wondering about all of these. 

Thanks,

R”

 

Again, I don’t know why his answer could not have been posted on Facebook for everyone to see. If you look at the Facebook post, there are others asking these same things, but they ignored those. 

[woodenhead]

So in KR Models eyes you are either a customer or the enemy?

 

Isn't part of selling the art of turning non customers into customers, not questioning their motives, blocking them and simply ignoring them?

[HExpressD]

I haven't ever purchased a KR Models, err, model however I have signed up for the Class 40 EOI, which came hand in hand with all their other ridiculous marketing fluff. If I were to email to ask a question about it, should I expect the same curt reply as to them I am not a customer either?

[zoomer1979]

I was a KR customer for the Fell and got told off for posting a "private email" (nothing marked as such in any way) on the Fell thread on here. Along the lines of "Just so you know" and "we don't appreciate" passive aggressive type wording.

I've had it with them, especially him!

Neil.

[DavidH]

20 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

I haven't ever purchased a KR Models, err, model however I have signed up for the Class 40 EOI, which came hand in hand with all their other ridiculous marketing fluff. If I were to email to ask a question about it, should I expect the same curt reply as to them I am not a customer either?

 

Slightly flippant suggestion .... but I'd study the posts on Facebook that get the friendliest KRM responses, and adopt the same tone in your email ;-)

[BVMR21]

Never particularly had an issue when emailing KR Models, they always seem to be quite polite when I have had a response from them.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, BVMR21 said:

Never particularly had an issue when emailing KR Models, they always seem to be quite polite when I have had a response from them.

 

I have found this a few times before. Firms that have had other people up in arms due to what they say is poor customer service and communication have been absolutely fine with me. I think it sometimes comes down to the tone that you adopt when you approach them.

 

Some people just don't enjoy engaging with those who make an approach in an antagonistic and adversarial way, especially when it is likely to be splashed all over the internet. There are rarely any winners in that scenario.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Except half the time KR block/ignore even those who aren't antagonistic and adversarial, just anyone who dares to even slightly (and often rightly) criticise their work.

A while back I had an email discourse with them about whether the Bertha models would have to two tender types. They confirmed yes and the whole back and forth was perfectly cordial.
Then the CADs for it came out and the issues were noted, so I responded back to the email with pictures of Bertha with the relevant parts highlighted to help them get the details right.
I could not have been more upbeat in that email, saying how much I was looking forward to the model, how good I thought the CADs looked, and hoping them the best for the project.
I got nothing back, and later found they had also blocked me on Facebook.
Petty nonsense like that doesn't faze me, and that alone wouldn't have stopped me ordering from them again. But any way you look at it that attitude is a terrible look for any company!

Edited June 5, 2023 by Obsidian Quarry