Hitachi trains grounded

[newbryford]

Hang off the posting for a few minutes guys.

 

I need to re-stock.....

 

 

 

[mdvle]

7 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Yes I'm sure this would be a problem in North America too - I was just curious about the extent to which drivers there need to be specifically trained on different types of locomotive.

 

Not sure, but at least in freight it is likely more of a "a loco is a loco is a loco", but when you are dealing with mile long or more freight trains running with 3+ locos the individual loco is less of an issue compared to a much shorter passenger unit with different performance characteristics.

 

7 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Maybe not now, but there was a time when passenger services did have a degree of flexibility that we don't in the UK, e.g. borrowing coaches from commuter operations and using them to strengthen Amtrak trains over national holidays. 

 

Hasn't happened in a long time.

 

7 minutes ago, Coryton said:

And this is over 20 years ago now, but I was on an Amtrak train that was severely delayed (spent most of the night stuck at some frozen points) and when we did get going the crew soon went out of hours. I was told that the replacement crew came from a freight railroad, and the conductor was therefore just dealing with the safety aspects and not checking tickets.

 

Does it happen?  Yes.  But, Amtrak etc. are still loco plus coaches with slower speeds, which is a different world to the high speed multiple units that the UK has.

 

I was on a GO train about 20 years ago (back when the freight companies provided the operating crews to GO) when CP brought down a freight engineer to do a quick familiarization trip - he struggled with the performance of the train, which was very different to what he was used to, making for a much slower trip given the problems of stopping accurately at the platforms.

 

Not a big issue on a slow speed service with little else in terms of rail traffic - or the very opposite of much of the UK.

 

(that was back when GO still ran cab cars with a little cubicle for the engineer - and when some engineers would leave the door open which allowed for observing them or in the above case for the regular engineer to be standing in the passenger area observing/advising the other engineer).

 

7 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

But as more passenger operations move to multiple units I'm sure like here flexibility is being lost.

 

Multiple units are essentially unheard of in North America.

 

Amtrak/VIA and most commuter agencies are all loco plus coaches.

 

Though that may be starting to change thanks to changes in government regulations, with CalTrain (San Francisco commuter) going to EMU's.

 

7 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Incidentally, I'd agree that that for most long distance services North America has freight railroads with the odd passenger train (or not), and that's to some extent the case for many local operations. But I wouldn't describe the North East corridor and commuter services along it like that.

 

The NEC is an exception, but it is a small part of the US - and isn't all that big in terms of service.

 

Amtrak has ordered from Alstom 28 trains for high speed service in the US.

 

There are 140 Class 80x units.

[newbryford]

If Northern had 80x's..........

This would be the solution.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hobby]

That would be an interesting ride at 125mph!

[Coryton]

13 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Multiple units are essentially unheard of in North America.

 

Mmmmm.

 

I wouldn't put it like that. I've certainly been on quite a few in the US (and not counting transit systems/light rail here).

 

Unless things have gone the other way since I was last in the area (admittedly some time ago), EMUs are very common in the New York area and around (LIRR, Metro-North, NJ Transit, SEPTA...)

 

A small part of the country, but must be a fairly large proportion of route miles.

 

Also some of the Chicago passenger routes.

 

Diesel multiple units essentially unheard of, yes. (I did go on a Budd railcar once).

 

But we're veering a little off topic here.

 

 

 

 

 

[billbedford]

https://www.facebook.com/thebashmash/photos/a.2690429281224046/2881804985419807/?__cft__[0]=AZXGh7LP7oCTyFN3Q9i_DDDpcdfOw98fSqHsZVpUreFz2TF2prrDN_Z9oJ_ediH-ss_vdgteQ5DVJYwufq_gUzsCxMDC4kDqBkMP2aBwESiOSZze-s-Tfmc-B8VeDdxObjXqs4MTqM8B5fsApyXX_B3_R1aNA2fj7AsxnFhPtfZQqpg_VzYPVyRvGks0JWwH3RYLwmXzlQKhEjWM1P2NyGan&__tn__=EH-y-R

[Hobby]

Perhaps he meant high speed long distance multiple units as seen in Europe rather than commuter or urban routes? 

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am not saying anything is wrong with the basis for the safety rules on the railway, but it is interesting to compare them with another area of life.

Imagine if you had to retake your driving test regularly to retain “competence”; if you had to have training before you could drive the new model of car you had just bought; if you needed a test that you knew the route you were going to take to get to work; that you had to be proved competent before you could change a wheel or the oil. Alright, I know that the results of an error with a train are potentially much greater than for a road vehicle incident.

 

 

Given the frankly abysmal standard of driving on the roads these days, being made to undertake some sort of refresher training every 10 years to keep a driving licence is well overdue.

 

The political ramifications at the ballot box mean its a non starter of course...

[Oldddudders]

While there is no mandatory re-test of a driver unless in very specific circs, the MOT is an annual event. That is intended to keep death off the roads to some extent. Here in France it starts at 4 years old, not 3, and is bi-enniel. 

[Coryton]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Given the frankly abysmal standard of driving on the roads these days, being made to undertake some sort of refresher training every 10 years to keep a driving licence is well overdue.

 

The political ramifications at the ballot box mean its a non starter of course...

 

Not even with the "if it saves the life of one child" card? No, probably not.

[melmerby]

There are high speed long distance MUs in USA

The Acelas which are now being replaced with new ones for Amtrak Electrified NE corridor, the Acelas are IIRC based on TGVs

 

Although not as fast

The Amtrak Cascades has Talgo multiple unit sets which are also being updated with new ones. (Bit like HSTs as they are essentially Loco+Coaches+Loco/driving trailer)

Not as common as Europe/UK but they exist.

 

Noticable is that Siemens is getting plenty of orders for passenger locos (locally assembled of course!)

Edited May 9, 2021 by melmerby

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, vlvstvir said:

Penzance just now - have been told this 802 isn’t going anywhere! Thank goodness for the old Castles! 

Where’s the “not to be moved board” ? 

[mdvle]

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

There are high speed long distance MUs in USA

 

Not using what most would consider the definition of multiple unit.

 

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The Acelas which are now being replaced with new ones for Amtrak Electrified NE corridor, the Acelas are IIRC based on TGVs

 

Sort of - it is an entirely new design due to the government regulation issues in North America, but as a loco + coaches + loco setup not really a multiple unit in the way that most consider a multiple unit - more of an HST design (as is the replacement Avelia Liberty currently under testing/being built)

 

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Although not as fast

The Amtrak Cascades has Talgo multiple unit sets which are also being updated with new ones. (Bit like HSTs as they are essentially Loco+Coaches+Loco/driving trailer)

Not as common as Europe/UK but they exist.

 

Again, the Talgo's aren't really multiple units - they are loco + coaches + cab car for push-pull service (of which there is a lot of in North America, most commuter stuff is push-pull).

 

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Noticable is that Siemens is getting plenty of orders for passenger locos (locally assembled of course!)

 

Siemens is doing far more than that - they are also dominating the passenger car market in North America.

 

They are providing loco+coaches+cab car for VIA and California, locos and coaches for a bunch of other States, and have just been selected by Amtrak to provide coaches for the first of Amtrak's new replacement program (in addition to a previous Amtrak order for locos).

[DK123GWR]

Just now, boxbrownie said:

Where’s the “not to be moved board” ? 

Wherever they usually are. It does say 'not to be moved' after all. 

[corneliuslundie]

This discussion of MUs in NA reminds me of the debate when the HSTs were new as to whether they were multiple units (with unit numbers) or locos plus carriages (with loco numbers). In best British fashion I seem to remember that we fudged it. I assume we would call a cabcar a driving trailer.

Jonathan

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Finally there should be a thunderbird fleet of warm stord 9 -car hst kept for emergency fleets across the network.

That philosophy went out with Beeching

[stewartingram]

Such a fast-moving topic with many posts....! 

Three comments on pasts post however:-

1. Back in the Noughties, when I commuted from KGX to HDN, I was frequently on the fast (almost non-stop) 6pm train, usually a 12 car 365x3 unit.; one day we had a 'failure' (before departure) on the front unit (I was in the 1st coach). Driver came on the PA and said we would be running slower, as there was a suspension fault. Normally we would be up to 100mph (and I have timed it at more...).  We were restricted to 60mph, and yes it was very bumpy - I believe the secondary air suspension had collapsed. But we were allowed to travel.

2 Bus drivers and route knowledge. One day I got on a bus at FPK, to travel to Waterloo (was it route 4?) Somewhere around Barbican/Museum of London he took a wrong turn, and ended up near Moorgate, a passenger interrupted him and told him we were going the wrong way. He turned round - doing an 11-point turn in the process! Not expected in London of all places.

3.Older stock stored & re-used. Back in steam days, there was a rake of coaches (from Cambridge) that was stored on a siding at Bartlow (junction on the Stour Valley where the Audley End branch veered off). They were stored there ALL YEAR, only being moved once a year for an excursion from CBG to the seaside. Apparently this was not unusual (or so I was told by one of the old hands from that era on the railway). And they had NO routine maintenance or cleaning before use, just the normal checks before moving them.

 

Stewart

Edited May 9, 2021 by stewartingram

[boxbrownie]

6 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

Wherever they usually are. It does say 'not to be moved' after all. 

Slip of the quote tag 

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I don't think even @big jim signs all routes. 

And Saltley depot isn't there any more. The Seagulls would take any train to anywhere as long as there was a beach.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

I wouldn't put it like that. I've certainly been on quite a few in the US (and not counting transit systems/light rail here).

 

Unless things have gone the other way since I was last in the area (admittedly some time ago), EMUs are very common in the New York area and around (LIRR, Metro-North, NJ Transit, SEPTA...)

 

All of those operations also have extensive non-EMU operations, but yes it is easy to forget those multiple unit operations exist given how geographically limited they are.

[Andrew Young]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Erm, I said several pages ago that XC were running specials, I assume you missed the posts. Our Bristol staff sign the route and Voyagers are also signed off over the route. So no real surprise. 

XC have tweeted the timetable, if you follow the link from the link. GWR can be thankful that XC are currently only running a 50ish percent service south west of Birmingham due to Covid and so have the spare crews. 
 

As for spare units, strange how there weren’t any spare when we were trying to get one for route knowledge retention... but nevertheless, good to see inter company cooperation. 
 

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

56 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

 

2 Bus drivers and route knowledge. One day I got on a bus at FPK, to travel to Waterloo (was it route 4?) Somewhere around Barbican/Museum of London he took a wrong turn, and ended up near Moorgate, a passenger interrupted him and told him we were going the wrong way. He turned round - doing an 11-point turn in the process! Not expected in London of all places.

 

These bendy-buses are amazing 

[Afroal05]

GWR are now down to 3 out of 93 units; 800006/009/014. They will be deployed on Reading - Newport services tomorrow. Any further 80X coming good will be deployed ad hoc, ideally restoring some kind of service on the Berks & Hants (where there are no planned long distance services tomorrow).

 

Additional 387s running Paddington - Didcot, guards are now being trained to run these to Swindon but this will not be before Tuesday and may slip to Wednesday at the earliest.

 

Turbos on the North Cots running Oxford - Worcester shuttles.

Turbo shuttle Swindon - Cheltenham.

 

XC are running Bristol - Swindon shuttles to connect that corridor up. There's not a perfect pattern to it, starts as nearly two hourly, then hourly during the middle of the day.

 

387s to Newbury and a turbo shuttle between Newbury - Bedwyn.

 

West of England operated by units/2+4s, same as today.

 

Scotrail - Last I heard they had stopped a single 385/0 and a 385/1 with similar cracking concerns. A wider fleet inspection now due (this information is probably 20hrs old now).

 

**************

 

As for the suggestion of 345s?

The whole railway industry is aware of the plight of TOCs with 80X stock and particularly that of  GWR. I am sure that conversations will have been had with MTR, or MTR have offered their assistance. As the current plans are workable with the number of 387s GWR have I am not sure how much use it would be covering GWR fast/semi fast services with 345s. Training up guards to work 387s to Swindon is a mammoth enough task without even thinking about where else you could feasibly run them to!

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, Hobby said:

Producing new diagrams for several hundred staff and trains isn't an overnight job. Who's to say they aren't already looking into that as one of many different scenarios they'll be looking at.

I'm long gone from the industry, leaving early partly because of the attitudes of people who were brought in to front line management without having any common sense let alone job-specific skills.

I had some experience of investigating equipment and infrastructure problems and putting plans into operation for keeping the service running under adverse conditions. It was not easy even in the days of the joined-up railway let alone with the present setup.

 

You are up against a culture which was typified by the last Management grades vacancy list I received before my job was sold to an outside organisation. There were 42 posts on it, three which required a knowledge of how a railway was put together and operated, the other 39 required a law degree or management accounting qualification.

 

A particular instance which comes top mind was when I was the Signalling Project Engineer for a major infrastructure job and overall manager in charge of the night shifts during the commissioning period. The work fringed with New Street PSB and we had the Stour Valley line blocked for three shifts with signalling for one junction disconnected at 0001 on Saturday. From 2200 on Friday things went to plan and after the 0800 shift was in place and working on Saturday I went home for a rest.

At about 1500 on Saturday afternoon I had a call to tell me that a fire at New Street Station had knocked out the power supply to the box and destroyed the cables taking the remote control of signalling across the whole area covered by it. I immediately called my boss and arranged to meet him at his house where I put him in the picture as far as I knew it and got his agreement that I could offer the use of any of our staff who were competent to help in restoration without having to go through any contractual hoops.

The next 40 hours involved management on the hoof with little sleep. Our work plan was rearranged, possession requirements revised and agreed, staffing changed and staff loaned to the repair effort. Operators had to rewrite the diversion timetables and revise replacement bus services. The normal rosters involved something like 80 units and several hundred staff. Railtrack had to round up as many staff as possible to flag signals and wind points.

Cutting the story short with a lot of co-operation between engineers, Railtrack operators and train operators we managed to run a skeleton service on all of the affected lines from 0600 on Monday. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, Reorte said:

Is it simply that the equipment changes too much over time and thus the inevitable mode of operation changes too much? How much is down to being familar with where a control is and how much with what it does and how, why, when and where it's needed?

I spent nearly 50 years involved in the signalling industry and was a regular visitor to signal boxes for about 10 years before that. I was brought up on lever frames then OCS and NX panels. Once I had updated on rules and regs I could pick up any particular box quite quickly. Although I know how VDU systems are put together I don't have any live experience of operating live systems in real time so would be useless on those without going through the whole learning process.