spikey Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 18 minutes ago, Legend said: ... The whole thing is a mess ... Whjich one's a mess? This tiers lark, or the present state of play? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 Anyone remember Gerald Ratner's prawn sandwich? Mike. 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, spikey said: Whjich one's a mess? This tiers lark, or the present state of play? Not enough capacity to make the promised range or quantities is the core mess Trying to resolve it by rationing after product launch next mess Losing a major retailer last year , now severely restricting a second this year(hacking off their end customers) another mess Yep Id pretty much say the whole thing Edited May 25, 2021 by Legend 7 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribird Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Question then, what happens if an online retailor sells all of the Hornby products, with some competitors, but no physical store? Would they be a tier 2 or 3? This is a question, and no dig to anyone or any company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted May 25, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ribird said: Question then, what happens if an online retailor sells all of the Hornby products, with some competitors, but no physical store? Would they be a tier 2 or 3? This is a question, and no dig to anyone or any company. I think online only retail is Tier 3 automatically. They would also struggle to stock some competitors products as both Bachmann and Peco also insist on a physical store. 1 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribird Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: I think online only retail is Tier 3 automatically. They would also struggle to stock some competitors products as both Bachmann and Peco also insist on a physical store. Thanks! Will have to make a inquiry then to my retailer where my pre-orders have been placed.... He is really good too. His system is great and very good price for shipping overseas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 Personally unaffected. IF I were to order new Hornby products I would only go through one retailer. He knows who that is and I'm pretty sure he would be tier 1 anyway 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) I read Tier 3 as 'retailers who also may produce items which are in competition'.... The key word for me was ALSO, as in they don't have a tidy, well laid-out and established, organised facility permitting a pleasant visitor experience. The implication being they have to fail the bricks and mortar part before conflict of interest / competition comes into consideration - or it was just poorly worded! Based on the announcement alone, both Hattons and Rails should still be Tier 1 dealers IMHO. Al. Edited May 25, 2021 by atom3624 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Anyone remember Gerald Ratner's prawn sandwich? Mike. He was spouting nonsense the other day as well. Relevant as he was saying that shops are finished and we should buy everything online and turn the shops into houses.... Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Simon Lee Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said: I think all other arguments Hornby have in Tier 1&2 are additional, because the possible conflict whith their own production plans are their main arguments for this new rules, so 1&2 are mostly rubish to say so. Rails has banned before, because they made models that conflicted Hornby's, now it is Hattons who conflicted Hornby's, who's next Kernow? They have two bricks and mortar shops, but also a new wharehouse and release their own developed models, so conflict Hornby's. I like to go to an brick and mortar shop, but living in the Netherlands with several other british railway modellers, it would mean we have to take a plane and other transport to reach british modelrailwaystores, if we are alloud to do in future, and maybe if B.J. have new rules to enter the UK an visa as well. So visit a bricks and mortar shop is not in the planning. Maybe if i would have an private jet it would have been easier, but i don't. So Hattons , Rails and Kernow is for the most of us the main suppliers. Many of the brick and mortar shops did'nt even shipped to outside the UK, and after Brexit more have ceased this option because all of the custom rules. So mainly, customers outside the UK don't need a brick and mortar shop, not saying they have to dissapear , but just to show there are others who cannot visit one and for them an brick and mortar is not necessary. So this argument of Hornby new tiers is unrealistic. But if they excluded Hattons for new releases and only they get the crumbs, maybe Hattons will develope more new models on their own, with a result a greater competion whit Hornby, eventually Hornby shoots hisself in their toe. Look at Hattons genesis coaches and compare with Hornby, and take your own conclussions, I made mine and Hattons in favour. Or you could try www.modelbahnunion.com Not far from the border and the have comprehensive stocks of Hornby, Bachmann and now Heljan 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) Utimately the proof will be in the pudding or eating or whatever the metaphor is! "we believe will result in a much smoother and less frustrating distribution of our products" Let's see as the 2021 range comes out. Having pre-orders cancelled is frustrating, so one assumes that for 2022 we will be pre-order easily and confident that there will be no cancellations. The immediate question is whether there is more fallout and further cancellations for 2020/2021 ranges. Hopefully not. Edited May 25, 2021 by ruggedpeak 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Legend said: Not enough capacity to make the promised range or quantities is the core mess Trying to resolve it by rationing after product launch next mess OK, so if you ran Hornby and you had to accept that the demand for some of your products exceeds the available production capacity, how would you try to keep everybody happy? ETA - That's not a rhetorical question, btw. I'm genuinely interested to find out if something's obvious to you that isn't to me. Edited May 25, 2021 by spikey 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, spamcan61 said: Personally I'm far more interested in how friendly / knowledgeable / helpful a retailer is than whether the shop meets Hornby's apparently arbitrary tidiness standard. < rolls eyes > 7 hours ago, 3rd Rail Exile said: I'm sure that a lot of RMWeb members enjoy rummaging around in that sort of shop, but what proportion of Hornby's target market do we actually constitute? I suspect that they assume (rightly or wrongly) that we know what we want to buy from their range and will find a way to buy it. It's the "I'm not sure what I actually want" sector that will appreciate well laid-out shops and helpful staff and (presumably) result in increased sales. 6 hours ago, zigzag said: Give me an Aladins cave type shop over a chrome, glass and spotlights shop everyday of the week The Aladdin's Cave shops are great for a rummage but have never in my experience been the go-to place for brand new current items. Certainly my Mrs has a very different view of some of the emporiums I have visited than I have - she would not use them or find them welcoming. So for Hornby's purposes their Tier 1 category makes sense. 5 hours ago, Harlequin said: Hornby are very nicely clearing a space in the market for competitors to step in... If you want to sell exclusively online, if some of your products are deemed to compete with Hornby, if you don't want to sell Airfix and other non-railway gubbins, if you can't afford snazzy retail premises, if you don't want to be under the control of the authoritarian regime, whose products do you sell? You need a new supplier. This could be the catalyst that forces people like Rails, Hattons and Dapol to form an even closer alliance and really take Hornby on at manufacturing. No need to hold back any more. Remember 1976 when Airfix, Mainline and Lima entered the UK market. That did provide Hornby with a real threat and forced them to up their game, but 45 years on it hasn't finished them off. 4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: It would seem that Hornby have never heard of Accurascale/SLW/Revolution etc. Whilst Hornby are floundering trying to find a direction to head in, they are leaving nice gaps for others, and the others don't impose restrictions on their outlets, which is great for modellers. For £150+ superdetail models for the dedicated enthusiast maybe - but none of these show any desire to cover the majority of Hornby's customer base. They are in a different business. Edited May 25, 2021 by andyman7 Spelling 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AY Mod Posted May 25, 2021 Moderators Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, spikey said: OK, so if you ran Hornby and you had to accept that the demand for some of your products exceeds the available production capacity, how would you try to keep everybody happy? It's Day 5,915 in the Armchair Consultants Room in the RMweb House and still no-one has precisely worked out the best way to get inebriated in a brewery. 2 2 2 23 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said: Utimately the proof will be in the pudding or eating or whatever the metaphor is! "we believe will result in a much smoother and less frustrating distribution of our products" Let's see as the 2021 range comes out. Having pre-orders cancelled is frustrating, so one assumes that for 2022 we will be pre-order easily and confident that there will be no cancellations. The immediate question is whether there is more fallout and further cancellations for 2020/2021 ranges, or hopefully that it is now. If, as implied in their statement, Hornby decline future advance orders from the likes of Hatton's, or the unchosen ones decide there's no point in placing orders with Hornby that won't be honoured, things may well become more rather than less "interesting" in 2022.... I still think Hornby's eventual aim is 100% direct trading, but they need to keep "enough" retailers sweet for long enough to build up, or buy-in the necessary expertise to make it work. John Edited May 25, 2021 by Dunsignalling 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, zigzag said: Give me an Aladins cave type shop over a chrome, glass and spotlights shop everyday of the week The trouble with Aladdin’s caves is that they attract too many Aladdin types... chrome and spotlights are usually combined with secure displays. 3 3 1 1 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, spikey said: OK, so if you ran Hornby and you had to accept that the demand for some of your products exceeds the available production capacity, how would you try to keep everybody happy? ETA - That's not a rhetorical question, btw. I'm genuinely interested to find out if something's obvious to you that isn't to me. But I wouldn't have got there in the first place Firstly I'd have made sure that I had production capacity to support my product launch . If I couldn't then I'd have had to have scaled back that launch . Now knowing what capacity I had I'd offer it to retailers . Knowing that the big boys could swamp me with demand , meaning no one else gets anything , if Hattons took say 30% of my trade last year I'd award them 30% of what I'm offering this year . I wouldn't sell all my capacity , maybe 80% leaving some contingency . Retailers would know at point of range release how much they could order , I would confirm their orders , they could go onto offer that to their customers . Its really what everyone else does . Not difficult . 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: If, as implied in their statement, Hornby decline future advance orders from the likes of Hatton's, or the latter decides there's no point in placing orders with Hornby that won't be honoured, things may well become more rather than less "interesting" in 2022.... I still think Hornby's eventual aim is 100% direct trading, but they need to keep "enough" retailers sweet for long enough to build up, or buy-in the necessary expertise to make it work. John They'll be gone by Christmas if they follow that route. So where are they getting a few thousand trained warehouse pickers to work in their distribution centre demanding £25 an hour at London and South East rates... Even Amazon is struggling to recruit them since all the cheap foreign workers went back to eastern Europe. Jason 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Even Amazon is struggling to recruit them since all the cheap foreign workers went back to eastern Europe. Never mind trains - who's picking the sprouts this year? 5 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 19 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: He was spouting nonsense the other day as well. Relevant as he was saying that shops are finished and we should buy everything online and turn the shops into houses.... Jason It's clear that some kinds of shops are finished, or at least that there is now room for far fewer of them. Plans for dividing the ground floors of former department stores into smaller retail and/or catering outlets, whilst redeveloping the higher ones into apartments are already being prepared. Mr. Ratner may have been taking things further than they will ever get, but his analysis of the direction of travel was spot-on. John 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Oldddudders said: Never mind trains - who's picking the sprouts this year? We can import those from Brussels? 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: Never mind trains - who's picking the sprouts this year? I like sprouts, but there will be plenty who hope "nobody". 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted May 25, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted May 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, Legend said: But I wouldn't have got there in the first place Firstly I'd have made sure that I had production capacity to support my product launch . If I couldn't then I'd have had to have scaled back that launch . Now knowing what capacity I had I'd offer it to retailers . Knowing that the big boys could swamp me with demand , meaning no one else gets anything , if Hattons took say 30% of my trade last year I'd award them 30% of what I'm offering this year . I wouldn't sell all my capacity , maybe 80% leaving some contingency . Retailers would know at point of range release how much they could order , I would confirm their orders , they could go onto offer that to their customers . Its really what everyone else does . Not difficult . Since those decisions were made at least 2 years ago, I'm curious to know how you would have predicted the effects of Covid. I understand that demand for some products has gone through the roof thanks to lockdown. 2 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nick C Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: Since those decisions were made at least 2 years ago, I'm curious to know how you would have predicted the effects of Covid. I understand that demand for some products has gone through the roof thanks to lockdown. Not only that, but production capacity has plummeted as factories were repurposed to produce PPE... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted May 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2021 Well, that all escalated rather quickly No 'tears' from us... 1 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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