Cavalex - all new Class 56 in OO

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

Personally I’m not fussed about the working fans, however headlights, markers and taillights are essential as these are needed for 99.9% of all operations. Cab lights are a nice to have but not a huge problem if they can’t be made to work. However, the only way I could get the basic lighting to work was with ESU, nothing else could get tail lights working. That’s where I have an issue, if I could get Zimo to work the lighting (even as simple as it all working directionally like the Hornby example) then I’d be happy enough and wouldn’t need to take to here and list the problems I’m having. Maybe one post just to help others be informed of the situation but that’s it. so if you guys have a way of getting that set up, or some other way of having tail lights working on other decoders please do let me know. 
 

i’d also like to make very clear that the physical detail on the model is some of if not the best on any ready to run loco currently available for the uk market, There’s no doubt or question in that. So much so that if I was a DC modeller id be more than happy with my pair and would recommend it to every man and his dog. It’s purely the DCC set up I’ve got an issue with, especially when models from other manufacturers can take any decoder and have all the lights work provided there’s enough functions on the decoder (granted these use plux22, instead of 21mtc, but the expectation remains the same)

 

as above, if you can specify the exact set up of the dip-switches that allowed you to get tail lights working on non-esu or basic decoders (and if you can specify the decoder used too) then it would be greatly appreciated. At the end of the day I just want head/marker and tail lights that work on a decoder of my choosing. I don’t think that’s a big ask from a model nearing £200.

[RBE]

1 hour ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

If that is the case, then why during Model Rail Scotland was I informed by your own team that esu is required to access all function outputs. Before I’d even finished fully explaining the issue I was having. It either is, or it isn’t. Even if it’s just recommended, why isn’t it advertised prior to purchase of the model. 
 

as for other decoders, as far as I’m aware only esu and Zimo make decoders that can access upto AUX10. And your model will only work properly work with one. As I’ve documented decently well on this thread, the decoder itself is confirmed to be working in other models and can operate F0f/r, Aux1, Aux2 & Aux10 without issue. However your model won’t respond when the decoder try’s to activate Aux3, Aux4, Aux5, Aux6, or Aux7, despite these working fine in other models.

 

Its all well and good saying other decoders can be programmed to work just like an esu chip, however if there isn’t another decoder that can access all the functions then that point is completely irrelevant.

 

It makes no sense for a manufacturer to recommend a specific decoder set up, but only have this set up available either by special request to a retailer or to have to program it yourself. You’ve purchased and blown sound decoders for sound fitted models, you could do the same with standard DCC ones too. You’ve already gone out of the way to provide the EM and P4 wheels sets which are a much more involved process. Expecting your retailers to provide pre-setup decoders just because they already have the basics for it is not ok. Why should they have to go to the extra hassle of blowing decoders for your model when you don’t even provide them yourself.

 

All your function mapping is doing is reducing the amount of steps needed by the user to get the same result of prototypical lighting. All the lights are on different outputs and as such, can be activated in any way the user wishes (provided their decoder can operate all the functions). Without mapping, if a user wants depot lights, they can turn all the lights off except the two tail light outputs. If they want tail lights on when moving, then that can pick which end they are needed and just turn on them plus the headlights and markers etc. Dapol locos have worked like this for a little while now and can access pretty much all lighting combinations too (I believe only the cab light is determined by a switch inside the model) yes your pre-mapped decoder makes this a simpler process, but the same result is possible without any mapping.

 

What decoder were you using and how were the dip-switches set, as I was only able to get the dip-switches to act as a manual override for either the functions being activated by the decoder, or completely off. 
 

there is not a decoder straight out of the box that operates all functions. Even the recommended esu chip would not activate certain functions until programmed. Having to specially request decoders from a retailer is not ‘out of the box’ either.

 

many people will have tried to get other decoders to work as they already have these decoders around, and if they have enough functions then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t work and yet they still don’t. Why is it seen as a bad thing for others to want different decoders to work when you don’t even provide one set for your model.
 

at the end of the day, you’ve brought a model to the market which requires a specific pre-programmed decoder. However you have not provided this decoder yourselves, and are instead expecting your retailers to fill in the gap instead. If you can not provide the decoders yourself like you have for the P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets, then you can not expect your customers to go out of their way to obtain them either. 

With all due respect, you are being confrontational for the sake of it. Whilst in order for the functions to have good QOL we recommend a pre-programmed ESU Lokpilot, but you can certainly access them via other decoders. However the circuit board and project was designed by ESU and we have recommended that decoder because we know 100% how it will behave. We have no obligation to test every decoder combination on the market and cannot be expected to so, if you choose to go against the recommendation then that is a personal choice along with any issues that you have in implementing that choice. The circuit board as I have said is not wired in any kind of strange way, it is to standard 21 pin protocols.

 

In order to satisfy these query's (This statement in particular 'there is not a decoder straight out of the box that operates all functions. Even the recommended esu chip would not activate certain functions until programmed. Having to specially request decoders from a retailer is not ‘out of the box’ either.') I have just been out and tested a class 56 with a Bachmann 4 function 21pin (21MTC) EZ Command decoder, pretty standard fare. Straight out of the box it controlled all of the lighting functions no problem. Set the dip switches to none ESU configuration and I got:

 

F0 Directional Headlight

F1 #1 end marker lights

F2 #2 end marker lights

F5 #1 Fan

F6 #2 Fan

F7 #1 end tail lights

F8 #2 end tail lights

 

All working fine straight out of the box. I admit I didn't test the cab lights as I forgot about them in all fairness, my bad. Possibly F3 & F4 but didn't check.

 

If that decoder can do it then I don't see why other more high end decoders can't.

 

As for supplying the decoders to retailers, again I'm sorry but you do not understand the business. For us to procure decoders for factory fitted sound is completely different to supplying aftermarket decoders. The purchasing requirements for ESU differs considerably with regard to factory bulk sales verses boxed retail units. It makes far more sense for the retailers who deal with these on a daily basis to provide the decoders, you are of the assumption that we are simply wiping our hands of the issue and hoping that the retailers will pick up the slack. This is not the case. We have a small retailer network which are part of the Cavalex support structure and as such are approached and willing to take on the blowing and supply of the decoders (if they have the means) where necessary. Us procuring decoders and supplying them to retailers is just an extra step in the process that isn't required.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27 by RBE

[dj_crisp]

38 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

If that is the case, then why during Model Rail Scotland was I informed by your own team that esu is required to access all function outputs. Before I’d even finished fully explaining the issue I was having. It either is, or it isn’t. Even if it’s just recommended, why isn’t it advertised prior to purchase of the model. 
 

as for other decoders, as far as I’m aware only esu and Zimo make decoders that can access upto AUX10. And your model will only work properly work with one. As I’ve documented decently well on this thread, the decoder itself is confirmed to be working in other models and can operate F0f/r, Aux1, Aux2 & Aux10 without issue. However your model won’t respond when the decoder try’s to activate Aux3, Aux4, Aux5, Aux6, or Aux7, despite these working fine in other models.

 

Its all well and good saying other decoders can be programmed to work just like an esu chip, however if there isn’t another decoder that can access all the functions then that point is completely irrelevant.

 

It makes no sense for a manufacturer to recommend a specific decoder set up, but only have this set up available either by special request to a retailer or to have to program it yourself. You’ve purchased and blown sound decoders for sound fitted models, you could do the same with standard DCC ones too. You’ve already gone out of the way to provide the EM and P4 wheels sets which are a much more involved process. Expecting your retailers to provide pre-setup decoders just because they already have the basics for it is not ok. Why should they have to go to the extra hassle of blowing decoders for your model when you don’t even provide them yourself.

 

All your function mapping is doing is reducing the amount of steps needed by the user to get the same result of prototypical lighting. All the lights are on different outputs and as such, can be activated in any way the user wishes (provided their decoder can operate all the functions). Without mapping, if a user wants depot lights, they can turn all the lights off except the two tail light outputs. If they want tail lights on when moving, then that can pick which end they are needed and just turn on them plus the headlights and markers etc. Dapol locos have worked like this for a little while now and can access pretty much all lighting combinations too (I believe only the cab light is determined by a switch inside the model) yes your pre-mapped decoder makes this a simpler process, but the same result is possible without any mapping.

 

What decoder were you using and how were the dip-switches set, as I was only able to get the dip-switches to act as a manual override for either the functions being activated by the decoder, or completely off. 
 

there is not a decoder straight out of the box that operates all functions. Even the recommended esu chip would not activate certain functions until programmed. Having to specially request decoders from a retailer is not ‘out of the box’ either.

 

many people will have tried to get other decoders to work as they already have these decoders around, and if they have enough functions then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t work and yet they still don’t. Why is it seen as a bad thing for others to want different decoders to work when you don’t even provide one set for your model.
 

at the end of the day, you’ve brought a model to the market which requires a specific pre-programmed decoder. However you have not provided this decoder yourselves, and are instead expecting your retailers to fill in the gap instead. If you can not provide the decoders yourself like you have for the P4 and EM Gauge wheel sets, then you can not expect your customers to go out of their way to obtain them either. 

 

Reading this I've sort of lost track of what the issue you have as it's not clear to me. I find lokpilots really easy to programme/map and I have them setup the way I want across the fleet so the functions operate the same. I much rather the standard off the shelf lokpilot doesnt have much mapped!! Purchasing an ESU decoder seems a no brainer to me.

 

I now dont bother buying a decoder under 10 functions so until the rest of the market catches up then its a simple esu or zimo purchase. I'm sure they will and I'm pleased cavalex and other manufactuers start improving lighting as tbh its been pretty rubbish for a long time. 

 

Infact my Hornby 60/67 homebrew lighting projects could really do with 11 function outputs so maybe we'll all be complaining 10 functions aren't enough soon 😀

 

 

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

8 minutes ago, RBE said:

In order to satisfy these query's (This statement in particular 'there is not a decoder straight out of the box that operates all functions. Even the recommended esu chip would not activate certain functions until programmed. Having to specially request decoders from a retailer is not ‘out of the box’ either.') I have just been out and tested a class 56 with a Bachmann 4 function 21pin EZ Command decoder, pretty standard fare. Straight out of the box it controlled all of the lighting functions no problem. Set the dip switches to none ESU configuration and I got:

 

F0 Directional Headlight

F1 #1 end marker lights

F2 #2 end marker lights

F5 #1 Fan

F6 #2 Fan

F7 #1 end tail lights

F8 #2 end tail lights

 

All working fine straight out of the box. I admit I didn't test the cab lights as I forgot about them in all fairness, my bad. Possibly F3 & F4 but didn't check.

 

If that decoder can do it then I don't see why other more high end decoders can't.

Is the decoder used here 36-557A? And if not what is the product code of it.

 

10 minutes ago, RBE said:

We have no obligation to test every decoder combination on the market and cannot be expected to so

No one is expecting you to test every single decoder available, however you should test a selection of the bigger brands available that customers are likely to use. E.G. esu, Zimo, Dapol, and other large brands with a big uk Presence. If you’re going to state your model uses a standard it should be tested with multiple different products from different manufacturers also using the same standard.

 

22 minutes ago, RBE said:

With all due respect, you are being confrontational for the sake of it.

All I’m trying to establish is why certain decoders don’t work when they do in other models. and if specific decoders are required or even recommended, why are people not informed before they buy the model. If it comes across as confrontational or aggressive,  that’s not the intention. It does not help having to ask the same question more than once however. Like I have said, I just want lights to work with Zimo. Every other model I’ve tried works fine. That still doesn’t explain why I was informed differently at model rail Scotland, where I was as polite as I could’ve been simply explaining my problem I was having.

[NHY 581]

Jumping back in here, I can see the points being raised by BBR as valid, tinged with frustration rather than confrontational. 

 

I have to say, despite assurances to the contrary, this does appear to be a bit of an off load to the retailer. 

 

Rob

 

 

[RBE]

3 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Is the decoder used here 36-557A? And if not what is the product code of it.

It's a 36-557  21MTC 1A decoder

 

3 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

No one is expecting you to test every single decoder available, however you should test a selection of the bigger brands available that customers are likely to use. E.G. esu, Zimo, Dapol, and other large brands with a big uk Presence. If you’re going to state your model uses a standard it should be tested with multiple different products from different manufacturers also using the same standard.

Again, no we don't have to, and shouldn't be expected to either. We are not electronics experts but ESU are and they have designed the circuit to the industry standard and as such have stated to us that it will work with any 21 pin decoder that uses that standard, we have no reason to doubt that statement. They have also stated that they recommend the ESU lokpilot decoder and we have passed that on to our customers. Aside from maybe having decoders in stock at home there is no reason that if buying a decoder especially for the loco that you wouldn't buy a pre-programmed ESU lokpilot as that works best with the model.

 

3 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

All I’m trying to establish is why certain decoders don’t work when they do in other models. and if specific decoders are required or even recommended, why are people not informed before they buy the model. If it comes across as confrontational or aggressive,  that’s not the intention. It does not help having to ask the same question more than once however. Like I have said, I just want lights to work with Zimo. Every other model I’ve tried works fine. That still doesn’t explain why I was informed differently at model rail Scotland, where I was as polite as I could’ve been simply explaining my problem I was having.

I don't know why you are having issues, as I said it worked for me just 30 mins ago with a basic Bachmann decoder. I wasn't there when you called to us at MRS as I was indisposed last weekend but as extensive testing with other decoders has not been conducted our answer to any issues will always be to use the recommended hardware.

[RBE]

3 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Jumping back in here, I can see the points being raised by BBR as valid, tinged with frustration rather than confrontational. 

 

I have to say, despite assurances to the contrary, this does appear to be a bit of an off load to the retailer. 

 

Rob

 

 

So you would have us, as Cavalex, buy retail boxed decoders from ESU pre-blown at that extra cost and then send them to our retailers to sell on, passing that cost onto consumers?

 

How is that any different to the retailers buying the decoders direct (more cheaply) and blowing them with whatever file they see fit when necessary? It also prevents a stock of pre blown decoders sitting on their shelves as they could also sell them blank or with the 56 file on depending on who is buying them.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

31 minutes ago, RBE said:

It's a 36-557  21MTC 1A decoder

I appreciate this might not be well known. But that’s still an ESU decoder, just with Bachmann branding. So still means an esu decoder is required from what has currently been established. 
 

31 minutes ago, RBE said:

Again, no we don't have to, and shouldn't be expected to either. We are not electronics experts but ESU are and they have designed the circuit to the industry standard and as such have stated to us that it will work with any 21 pin decoder that uses that standard, we have no reason to doubt that statement. They have also stated that they recommend the ESU lokpilot decoder and we have passed that on to our customers. Aside from maybe having decoders in stock at home there is no reason that if buying a decoder especially for the loco that you wouldn't buy a pre-programmed ESU lokpilot as that works best with the model.

It is not unreasonable for a customer to assume that a model that follows a standard, has already been tested with multiple different brands also following that standard. If you have not tested this with non-ESU decoders, you can not be 100% sure that your model follows the standard accordingly. 
 

31 minutes ago, RBE said:

I don't know why you are having issues, as I said it worked for me just 30 mins ago with a basic Bachmann decoder. I wasn't there when you called to us at MRS as I was indisposed last weekend but as extensive testing with other decoders has not been conducted our answer to any issues will always be to use the recommended hardware.

The issue is I can’t get basic lighting to work with a non-esu decoder that works perfectly fine in other models. If other models didn’t work I’d agree it’s down to the chip. But they do work and yours doesn’t, so it’s not the decoder at fault here. 
 

25 minutes ago, RBE said:

So you would have us, as Cavalex, buy retail boxed decoders from ESU pre-blown at that extra cost and then send them to our retailers to sell on, passing that cost onto consumers?

If you can buy the sound decoders at a bulk rate then why can’t you for the standard ones? You’re already committed to a second run so if there’s any sat around they can just be saved for that. If your going to recommend a specific set up, it’s down to you to make sure it’s obtainable with no extra steps compared to a normal decoder.

Edited February 27 by Bryn_Bach_Railway

[RBE]

2 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

I appreciate this might not be well known. But that’s still an ESU decoder, just with Bachmann branding. So still means an esu decoder is required from what has currently been established. 
 

It's what I had laid around, if that's the case then fine. However ESU have stated to us that there is no reason that other decoders shouldn't work.

 

2 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

It is not unreasonable for a customer to assume that a model that follows a standard, has already been tested with multiple different brands also following that standard. If you have not tested this with non-ESU decoders, you can not be 100% sure that your model follows the standard accordingly. 
 

It does follow a standard (see below, bottom right is our connections), however it is also not unreasonable to use the recommended decoder suggested by the manufacturer of the product, known to work without issue. Maybe these diagrams might help you get things going (not sure what Zimo decoder you are using but should be standard right?) The dip switches should all be set to the ON position to connect the reds to AUX 5 and 6 respectively. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

If you can buy the sound decoders at a bulk rate then why can’t you for the standard ones? You’re already committed to a second run so if there’s any sat around they can just be saved for that.

 

Again it works differently, the factory have a contract with ESU and are supplied direct for installation at source. Aftermarket products for consumer sales are handled differently by ESU and have to be procured as retail packs.

 

2 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

If your going to recommend a specific set up, it’s down to you to make sure it’s obtainable with no extra steps compared to a normal decoder.

They are obtainable through our retailers with no extra steps. However its not a 'normal' lighting configuration (which would be your basic white fronts red rears on directional) so you cannot expect to buy the decoders as a 'normal decoder'

[NBL]

1 hour ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

I appreciate this might not be well known. But that’s still an ESU decoder, just with Bachmann branding. So still means an esu decoder is required from what has currently been established. 
 

It is not unreasonable for a customer to assume that a model that follows a standard, has already been tested with multiple different brands also following that standard. If you have not tested this with non-ESU decoders, you can not be 100% sure that your model follows the standard accordingly. 
 

The issue is I can’t get basic lighting to work with a non-esu decoder that works perfectly fine in other models. If other models didn’t work I’d agree it’s down to the chip. But they do work and yours doesn’t, so it’s not the decoder at fault here. 
 

If you can buy the sound decoders at a bulk rate then why can’t you for the standard ones? You’re already committed to a second run so if there’s any sat around they can just be saved for that. If your going to recommend a specific set up, it’s down to you to make sure it’s obtainable with no extra steps compared to a normal decoder.

Stop f-ing moaning for Christ's sake, it's a toy train

[SRman]

1 hour ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

I appreciate this might not be well known. But that’s still an ESU decoder, just with Bachmann branding. So still means an esu decoder is required from what has currently been established. 

 

Not necessarily. Bachmann confused the issue by using two different brands with the same 36-557 catalogue code. If the decoder is green, it's a rebadged Soundtraxx, if it's blue, it's rebadged ESU. Personally, having used both, I prefer the ESU any time.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

41 minutes ago, RBE said:

It's what I had laid around, if that's the case then fine. However ESU have stated to us that there is no reason that other decoders shouldn't work.

 

It does follow a standard (see below, bottom right is our connections), however it is also not unreasonable to use the recommended decoder suggested by the manufacturer of the product, known to work without issue. Maybe these diagrams might help you get things going (not sure what Zimo decoder you are using but should be standard right?) The dip switches should all be set to the ON position to connect the reds to AUX 5 and 6 respectively. 

 

The Zimo decoder I’m using is a MN340C, with CV’s adjusted to enable AUX7/8/9/10. In other models, F0f/r and AUX 1-10 all work fine. In the 56, only F0f/r and AUX 1/2, and AUX 10 work, nothing else. Dip-switches were tried in both esu, and non-esu formations. With the only difference being F8/AUX8 (AUX11 on ESU) had to be turned in for lights to operate. the fact that some outputs work and some don’t in one model, but they all do in other models, certainly points to the issue being with the locos circuit, I don’t think there’s any other way to see that. If I had nothing above AUX 3 where it’s all logic level I’d point it at the decoder, but the fact AUX 10 works fine, and it’s just AUX 3-7 that won’t. Then it’s down to the model. I’ve even tested with a volt meter that the function outputs on the Zimo chip are activating for AUX 3-7, and they all are. However the model is not activating the appropriate lighting. I also tested 4 different MN340C decoders, all to the same result, so that rules out it being a one off with a dodgy decoder too. All of this I’ve stated before and asked if a specific voltage was required. Which went unanswered. 
 

Not listed on the diagram above, but when set outputs, switch input IN1 operates as logic level FO10/AUX10

 

41 minutes ago, RBE said:

Again it works differently, the factory have a contract with ESU and are supplied direct for installation at source. Aftermarket products for consumer sales are handled differently by ESU and have to be procured as retail packs.

 

Other manufacturers have managed to supply pre-programmed non-sound decoders for their products also using ESU chips.

 

41 minutes ago, RBE said:

They are obtainable through our retailers with no extra steps. However its not a 'normal' lighting configuration (which would be your basic white fronts red rears on directional) so you cannot expect to buy the decoders as a 'normal decoder'

Having to contact a retailer for a chip to be programmed specifically is an extra step. Multiple other manufacturers who are aware their models need specific sets ups to work correctly provide these decoders, pre-setup as additional products. Which can be purchased just like any other decoder without the need for the customer to contact the retailer so have that specific setup installed. 
 

41 minutes ago, RBE said:

it is also not unreasonable to use the recommended decoder suggested by the manufacturer of the product, known to work without issue.

If this was advertised clearly in the product description, and in the box of the model. I’d give in to your reasoning. Granted would not be happy but also would leave it at that. If you want people to you a specific decoder, it needs to be advertised prior to purchase. Personally if I’d known about it I would’ve heavily considered my purchase. Especially of the secound 56. Weather i would’ve decided against I don’t know. But it’s information that should’ve been listed in product descriptions and on the box.

Edited February 27 by Bryn_Bach_Railway

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

4 minutes ago, SRman said:

 

Not necessarily. Bachmann confused the issue by using two different brands with the same 36-557 catalogue code. If the decoder is green, it's a rebadged Soundtraxx, if it's blue, it's rebadged ESU. Personally, having used both, I prefer the ESU any time.

Ah right, thats not great on Bachmann’s part either but that’s not the point here. When looking around online I could only find reference to the ESU version. And that was also the only one I could find available for purchase at retailers. Hence my statement of it being an esu chip. If it is indeed a soundtraxx instead then to me that opens up a bigger question of why some do work and others done. Its one standard at the end of the day.

[NHY 581]

1 hour ago, RBE said:

So you would have us, as Cavalex, buy retail boxed decoders from ESU pre-blown at that extra cost and then send them to our retailers to sell on, passing that cost onto consumers?

 

 

No, I've not suggested buying at retail cost at any point. No need to manipulate my words. 

 

Rob. 

[RBE]

7 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

The Zimo decoder I’m using is a MN340C, with CV’s adjusted to enable AUX7/8/9/10. In other models, F0f/r and AUX 1-10 all work fine. In the 56, only F0f/r and AUX 1/2, and AUX 10 work, nothing else. Dip-switches were tried in both esu, and non-esu formations. With the only difference being F8/AUX8 (AUX11 on ESU) had to be turned in for lights to operate. the fact that some outputs work and some don’t in one model, but they all do in other models, certainly points to the issue being with the locos circuit, I don’t think there’s any other way to see that. If I had nothing above AUX 3 where it’s all logic level I’d point it at the decoder, but the fact AUX 10 works fine, and it’s just AUX 3-7 that won’t. Then it’s down to the model. I’ve even tested with a volt meter that the function outputs on the Zimo chip are activating for AUX 3-7, and they all are. However the model is not activating the appropriate lighting. I also tested 4 different MN340C decoders, all to the same result, so that rules out it being a one off with a dodgy decoder too. All of this I’ve stated before and asked if a specific voltage was required. Which went unanswered. 
 

Not listed on the diagram above, but when set outputs, switch input IN1 operates as F10/AUX10

Again there is nothing none standard in our circuitry, it meets NMRA standards. The simple solution here is to buy the correct decoder as specified and then everyone's time won't be wasted. 

 

7 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

Other manufacturers have managed to supply pre-programmed non-sound decoders for their products also using ESU chips.

Yes they have, I never said it wasn't possible and we could do it as well at a cost, I have said that given that we do not sell any products direct to customers currently then you need to buy our products through our retailers anyway so there is no difference to the end user. Again you are being difficult for the sake of it.

 

7 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

Having to contact a retailer for a chip to be programmed specifically is an extra step. Multiple other manufacturers who are aware their models need specific sets ups to work correctly provide these decoders, pre-setup as additional products. Which can be purchased just like any other decoder without the need for the customer to contact the retailer so have that specific setup installed. 

As I said you have to buy our products through the retailer anyway so no additional steps required. You just order a class 56 lokpilot and they deliver.

 

7 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

If this was advertised clearly in the product description, and in the box of the model. I’d give in to your reasoning. Granted would not be happy but also would leave it at that. If you want people to you a specific decoder, it needs to be advertised prior to purchase. Personally if I’d known about it I would’ve heavily considered my purchase. Especially of the secound 56. Weather i would’ve decided against I don’t know. But it’s information that should’ve been listed in product descriptions and on the box.

That is your prerogative of course however I personally would consider that cutting your nose off to spite your face. Missing out on a model because of the decoder that you have to use makes no sense at all to me. Just buy a lokpilot. 

[SRman]

18 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Ah right, thats not great on Bachmann’s part either but that’s not the point here. When looking around online I could only find reference to the ESU version. And that was also the only one I could find available for purchase at retailers. Hence my statement of it being an esu chip. If it is indeed a soundtraxx instead then to me that opens up a bigger question of why some do work and others done. Its one standard at the end of the day.

 

Again it's not quite that simple. There are at least a couple of standards (possibly more) for the 21-pin format. There are differing standards for which outputs are full-powered and which are logic functions (i.e. low-powered). that has caused a few problems with different decoders in other models too - see the Heljan 10800 topic*. Zimo's 21-pin decoders (MX634 and MX638, plus the newer versions) allow one to switch between the two standards by putting values into CV8 to act as a switch between them.

* Edit: also look at the Revolution Trains Caroline problems with decoders. And have a look at this: https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/dcc-welcome-page/dcc-decoders/decoder-plugssockets/21-pin-plug-issues 

 

 

Edited February 27 by SRman
Additional info

[RBE]

5 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

No, I've not suggested buying at retail cost at any point. No need to manipulate my words. 

 

Rob. 

I didn't say we buy at retail cost, I said that we would have to buy retail units which cost more from ESU than bulk items. My point being that we are adding a step where we buy decoders and send them on to retailers that can simply buy them themselves cutting out the middle man.

Edited February 27 by RBE

[E100]

It's simple a case of two options to me.

1. If you want you can put in pretty much any DCC decoder and it will do all the basic functions.
2. If you want to unlock all the advanced lighting features you buy an ESU lokpilot decoder from a retailer (such as roads and rails for example but pretty much any ESU retailer would do I'm sure) who can blow the decoder (likely for free) with the file from the ESU website which is freely available or use your lokprogrammer or find a nice person who has one at your club or on here / a friend etc.

I don't think that's unreasonable to me based on the size of outfit Cavalex are and the functionality we are asking these decoders to do and this is really maxing out the capabilities of the highest specification on the market.

 

All that being said I would welcome a single DCC standard for the 21pin interface that would ensure that these issues don't occur but that isn't the world we live in yet.

[Moley48]

Well done Cavalex on your first loco! 

 

I grabbed the rail tour pack and both locos are amazing.

 

Cant wait to bring the grids alive when my Sound decoder arrives from Roads and rails in about an hours time!  

 

 

[NHY 581]

17 minutes ago, RBE said:

I didn't say we buy at retail cost, I said that we would have to buy retail units which cost more from ESU than bulk items. My point being that we are adding a step where we buy decoders and send them on to retailers that can simply buy them themselves cutting out the middle man.

 Understood.  

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

50 minutes ago, RBE said:

Again there is nothing none standard in our circuitry, it meets NMRA standards. The simple solution here is to buy the correct decoder as specified and then everyone's time won't be wasted. 

Can you explain then why a decoder that follows the standard, does not work. Again, the decoder in question works fine in other models that also follow NRMA standards.

 

50 minutes ago, RBE said:

Yes they have, I never said it wasn't possible and we could do it as well at a cost, I have said that given that we do not sell any products direct to customers currently then you need to buy our products through our retailers anyway so there is no difference to the end user. Again you are being difficult for the sake of it.

 

As I said you have to buy our products through the retailer anyway so no additional steps required. You just order a class 56 lokpilot and they deliver.

From what I can see, there is not an option with your retailers to order a chip already programmed. You still have to contact the retailer to have it set up. Thats an additional step needed that really shouldn’t be. Being autistic I can’t deal with phone calls to people/company’s I do not know, so that only leaves email for most shops. Which is what 
 

50 minutes ago, RBE said:

That is your prerogative of course however I personally would consider that cutting your nose off to spite your face. Missing out on a model because of the decoder that you have to use makes no sense at all to me. Just buy a lokpilot. 

If your response to any decoder trouble is ‘just buy a lokpilot’ why can’t you just advertise this before hand anyways. Quite frankly it’s not about missing out on a model from my point of view, as I’d have a class 56 either way. I went for yours due to the extra lighting as I was under the impression any decoder with enough functions would work. Not knowing it was only accessible via ESU. Had I known this, I would’ve considered the Hornby version and upgraded / re-wired the lights myself. Like I said I don’t know which I would’ve picked. But the information should’ve been available before purchase. As great as the details are on your model, it was not a deciding factor for me. I view my models from a. Distance when they’re running, and as such you don’t see all the tiny details the majority of the time. You have done an incredible job with the detail however. I chose to use Zimo in all my models as I know exactly how the decoders perform. And I understand exactly how to change all the functions to my liking. Only exception to that rule is sound fitted stock, as that is expected to perform different anyway. Esu decoders are programmed a different way, and perform differently to Zimo. It’s also a case of if any decoder breaks for any reason, I always have Zimo in stock to swap in. I don’t with Esu, and at the end of the day wanting everything to run off one decoder is not a big ask. It’s actually fairly standard advice given to people before they start DCC. 

 

45 minutes ago, E100 said:

1. If you want you can put in pretty much any DCC decoder and it will do all the basic functions.
2. If you want to unlock all the advanced lighting features you buy an ESU lokpilot decoder from a retailer (such as roads and rails for example but pretty much any ESU retailer would do I'm sure) who can blow the decoder (likely for free) with the file from the ESU website which is freely available or use your lokprogrammer or find a nice person who has one at your club or on here / a friend etc.

If I could get basic lighting to work I’d be happy, but tail lights are certainly basic lighting. And they don’t want to work. Specific decoders should not be needed for something as simple as tail lights.

 

Other products that require a specific decoder for full functionality state so either in the product description or on the box. That should be the case here too. 

 

45 minutes ago, E100 said:

All that being said I would welcome a single DCC standard for the 21pin interface that would ensure that these issues don't occur but that isn't the world we live in yet.

The irony here is it does exist, PLUX22 has 21 pins, and it’s just one standard. However as had been covered in other threads, it appears ESU do not like to use it. 
 

at the end of the day. If it was specified prior to purchase that specific decoders were required for full functionality either as a note on the box, or in the product description online. Then there would’ve been no issue here. Customers should not be purchasing a model that follows a standard, only to be told it needs a certain set up decoder after purchase. If that’s the case advertise it before hand. All that was needed was a simple sentence on the box or in the description such as;

 

“while this model follows the NMRA 21mtc standard, we recommend a pre-programmed esu 59629 (or whatever the decoder is) decoder for full functionality. Other decoders may work however may not operate all advertised functions. To obtain the specified decoder please contact your retailer”

If your recommending the decoder anyway if baffles me that this wasn’t on the box and in the product descriptions by default.

[RBE]

3 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Can you explain then why a decoder that follows the standard, does not work. Again, the decoder in question works fine in other models that also follow NRMA standards.

 

From what I can see, there is not an option with your retailers to order a chip already programmed. You still have to contact the retailer to have it set up. Thats an additional step needed that really shouldn’t be. Being autistic I can’t deal with phone calls to people/company’s I do not know, so that only leaves email for most shops. Which is what 
 

If your response to any decoder trouble is ‘just buy a lokpilot’ why can’t you just advertise this before hand anyways. Quite frankly it’s not about missing out on a model from my point of view, as I’d have a class 56 either way. I went for yours due to the extra lighting as I was under the impression any decoder with enough functions would work. Not knowing it was only accessible via ESU. Had I known this, I would’ve considered the Hornby version and upgraded / re-wired the lights myself. Like I said I don’t know which I would’ve picked. But the information should’ve been available before purchase. As great as the details are on your model, it was not a deciding factor for me. I view my models from a. Distance when they’re running, and as such you don’t see all the tiny details the majority of the time. You have done an incredible job with the detail however. I chose to use Zimo in all my models as I know exactly how the decoders perform. And I understand exactly how to change all the functions to my liking. Only exception to that rule is sound fitted stock, as that is expected to perform different anyway. Esu decoders are programmed a different way, and perform differently to Zimo. It’s also a case of if any decoder breaks for any reason, I always have Zimo in stock to swap in. I don’t with Esu, and at the end of the day wanting everything to run off one decoder is not a big ask. It’s actually fairly standard advice given to people before they start DCC. 

 

If I could get basic lighting to work I’d be happy, but tail lights are certainly basic lighting. And they don’t want to work. Specific decoders should not be needed for something as simple as tail lights.

 

Other products that require a specific decoder for full functionality state so either in the product description or on the box. That should be the case here too. 

 

The irony here is it does exist, PLUX22 has 21 pins, and it’s just one standard. However as had been covered in other threads, it appears ESU do not like to use it. 
 

at the end of the day. If it was specified prior to purchase that specific decoders were required for full functionality either as a note on the box, or in the product description online. Then there would’ve been no issue here. Customers should not be purchasing a model that follows a standard, only to be told it needs a certain set up decoder after purchase. If that’s the case advertise it before hand. All that was needed was a simple sentence on the box or in the description such as;

 

“while this model follows the NMRA 21mtc standard, we recommend a pre-programmed esu 59629 (or whatever the decoder is) decoder for full functionality. Other decoders may work however may not operate all advertised functions. To obtain the specified decoder please contact your retailer”

If your recommending the decoder anyway if baffles me that this wasn’t on the box and in the product descriptions by default.

I've contacted ESU, lets leave it at that.

[rob D2]

Enough BBR, this isn’t your private thread.

If you want to carry on, please direct message them or something 

Edited February 27 by rob D2

[franciswilliamwebb]

My favourite page on RMweb: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/ignore/ 🙄

[Pete the Elaner]

5 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

Customers should not be purchasing a model that follows a standard, only to be told it needs a certain set up decoder after purchase. If that’s the case advertise it before hand. All that was needed was a simple sentence on the box or in the description such as;

 

 

The functionality we are now accustomed to goes way beyond NMRA standards, which are what define DCC as we know it. Beyond this, designers have different methods of achieving the same result/functions & these may not be compatible with each other.