Erixtar1992 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) How can people STILL not grasp the decoder thing?!?! Stop eating crayons and think about it. There is indeed a standard set of functions on most decoders. This is VERY BASIC. This will ‘usually’ work the front&rear lighting directionally, then Aux1 on F1 and upwards. If you put one of these in a high end model, such as the Cavalex 56, it will run, but you wont have access to all of the features. If you put this in a more basic model (Hornby 56) it will also run, with the directional lighting likely working in the very basic way from 10 years ago... If you want modern day locos to be able to turn the tail lights off for pulling a train, turn the main headlamp off for working within a yard, turn one cab light on at a time as the driver doesnt have 60ft long arms (unless he is Mr Tickles) and have fans that can spool up seperately to everything and each other rather than a rubber band, then you will need a loco with all of this circuitry built in. Not every manufacturers locos will have the same features, so its not something you can easily standardise anyway. To operate a loco with all this stuff, youll need to have a decoder that is set up for it too. If you went and bought a blank ESU Loksound decoder it would be the same thing, it would also only have the test sound file loaded with a basic diesel sound and a squeaky horn. Suprise suprise it needs to be ‘Re-blown’ to have a class 56 sound project on, aswell as the correct function mapping. Same with a Lokpilot (non sound) decoder, it also needs to have the function mapping set up for a 56. In the same way. Some retailers will have the correct setup for a Cavalex 56, which they will have to load onto each decoder they sell, aslong as the customer states its for a 56. EXACT same story as other manufacturers locos that are up to modern day levels of features. If i went and bought a Bachmann Deluxe 47, it also wouldnt work properly with a decoder on basic settings. ESU is the recommended decoder for these, as it is what Cavalex have set the loco up for. You could probably set up a Zimo decoder to work in it quite happily too, if you altered the function mapping. Most other brands of decoders dont let you alter the function mapping however, hence you wont get everything to work. Edited February 27 by Erixtar1992 4 9 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 97406 Posted February 27 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27 When I got my first DCC ready 56, I installed a boggo LaisDCC decoder as a temporary measure to get it running. I then waited for my second loco to arrive with sound to decide on whether to install and configure the Lokpilot decoder, wait for a configured decoder from Cavalex, or go for a sound upgrade. The fact that half the functions didn’t work with the LaisDCC was not an issue. No doubt I could have tweaked its configuration if need be, but the intention was always to get one designed for the purpose after buying recent locos from Bachmann and Accuascale. Unless you’re really into DCC programming (and it’s something I’d like to do when time allows), I’m happy to get the proper one from the manufacturer or a third party supplier. I don’t see a problem here. 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn_Bach_Railway Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said: How can people STILL not grasp the decoder thing?!?! Stop eating crayons and think about it. There is indeed a standard set of functions on most decoders. This is VERY BASIC. This will ‘usually’ work the front&rear lighting directionally, then Aux1 on F1 and upwards. If you put one of these in a high end model, such as the Cavalex 56, it will run, but you wont have access to all of the features. If you put this in a more basic model (Hornby 56) it will also run, with the directional lighting likely working in the very basic way from 10 years ago... If you want modern day locos to be able to turn the tail lights off for pulling a train, turn the main headlamp off for working within a yard, turn one cab light on at a time as the driver doesnt have 60ft long arms (unless he is Mr Tickles) and have fans that can spool up seperately to everything and each other rather than a rubber band, then you will need a loco with all of this circuitry built in. Not every manufacturers locos will have the same features, so its not something you can easily standardise anyway. To operate a loco with all this stuff, youll need to have a decoder that is set up for it too. If you went and bought a blank ESU Loksound decoder it would be the same thing, it would also only have the test sound file loaded with a basic diesel sound and a squeaky horn. Suprise suprise it needs to be ‘Re-blown’ to have a class 56 sound project on, aswell as the correct function mapping. Same with a Lokpilot (non sound) decoder, it also needs to have the function mapping set up for a 56. In the same way. Some retailers will have the correct setup for a Cavalex 56, which they will have to load onto each decoder they sell, aslong as the customer states its for a 56. EXACT same story as other manufacturers locos that are up to modern day levels of features. If i went and bought a Bachmann Deluxe 47, it also wouldnt work properly with a decoder on basic settings. ESU is the recommended decoder for these, as it is what Cavalex have set the loco up for. You could probably set up a Zimo decoder to work in it quite happily too, if you altered the function mapping. Most other brands of decoders dont let you alter the function mapping however, hence you wont get everything to work. It’s not mapping the functions that’s the issue. It’s getting certain lights to simply turn on that is. I can customise the function mapping however I want once I’ve got the decoder working. But I’m not able to get essential things like tail lights working currently. stuff like turning tails lights off can be done on any model as long as your decoder can do Swiss mapping. (Incorrect statement) anyways RBE has contacted ESU. I’ll wait for him to respond with their comments Edited February 27 by Bryn_Bach_Railway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erixtar1992 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) Im just talking in general after reading countless pages of decoder decoder decoder on here haha. i dont know why people try shoving a random £10 one in then go on about it not working, unless like above its just basically in there to test the model out before upgrading ect They cant be turned off on older models where the tails are wired in with the headlights Edited February 27 by Erixtar1992 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said: Im just talking in general after reading countless pages of decoder decoder decoder on here haha. i dont know why people try shoving a random £10 one in then go on about it not working, unless like above its just basically in there to test the model out before upgrading ect They cant be turned off on older models where the tails are wired in with the headlights The issue Eric is that the Zimo decoder that he wants to use isn't cheap but also fails to power the tail lights for some reason, even though the outputs match the ESU. Ironically the cheap Bachmann 36-557 decoder works just fine. As I said, just get the Lokpilot or a Bachmann if you want, you'll get the functions you want and it will run the loco just fine as its circuitry is designed by ESU. For me it's a no brainer but BBR wants to use Zimo exclusively. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn_Bach_Railway Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said: Im just talking in general after reading countless pages of decoder decoder decoder on here haha. i dont know why people try shoving a random £10 one in then go on about it not working, unless like above its just basically in there to test the model out before upgrading ect They cant be turned off on older models where the tails are wired in with the headlights When using cheap decoders I would agree, but using other high end decoders at similar price points should not lead issues. as for the tail lights your right there. Didn’t proof read what I said before driving off for lunch 🤦🏼♂️ and re-reading it, I was clearly thinking about a different situation and crossed wires. I’ll admit that was an incorrect statement and I’ll edit the post accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekdoestrains Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) The ESU vs non ESU argument isn't going to change. It’s done - time to move on! If anyone wants to get their ESU decoder blown and doesn’t have a lokprogrammer, feel free to use one of the many companies out there to reblow it for them, or if you can’t pay (the small amount I expect they’d actually want to cover their time), send it here if it stops you crying about it and I’ll put the ESU file on it just to stop having to scroll between useful content (such as the motor tower issue) and the never ending argument about who’s right! The future is people wanting more and more from models, that may be (in some people’s opinions) going too far at the detriment to others, but they’ll be a lot of people who are happy to not have to butcher wiring on their brand new locos to get the lighting configured to be accurate… I don’t disagree perhaps Cavalex could have sorted out standard DCC chips pre programmed for suppliers, but I know a few shops who wouldn’t want to have the chips hanging about long after the locos have sold, so wouldn’t have ordered them anyway! So you can’t win whatever you do? Would it be better just to not release locos? Can’t upset anyone if you don’t do anything… Edited February 27 by derekdoestrains Update 6 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dj_crisp Posted February 27 Popular Post Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said: When using cheap decoders I would agree, but using other high end decoders at similar price points should not lead issues. as for the tail lights your right there. Didn’t proof read what I said before driving off for lunch 🤦🏼♂️ and re-reading it, I was clearly thinking about a different situation and crossed wires. I’ll admit that was an incorrect statement and I’ll edit the post accordingly. Can you contact ESU yourself about why they've adopted a slightly different approach to Zimo. I'd rather the cavalex crew got on with their next projects! 18 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn_Bach_Railway Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 32 minutes ago, dj_crisp said: Can you contact ESU yourself about why they've adopted a slightly different approach to Zimo. I'd rather the cavalex crew got on with their next projects! I have a problem with a Cavalex product, as such I am contacting Cavalex. If they deem it appropriate to contact ESU then that’s what they’ll do, but that’s down to them. You wouldn’t contact Samsung about an iPhone screen issue just because they made the screen. You would contact apple who made the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekdoestrains Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Bryn_Bach_Railway said: I have a problem with a Cavalex product, as such I am contacting Cavalex. If they deem it appropriate to contact ESU then that’s what they’ll do, but that’s down to them. You wouldn’t contact Samsung about an iPhone screen issue just because they made the screen. You would contact apple who made the product. Then contact them… not the rest of the world 🤷♂️ this has been done to death here and done to death on another manufactures page (as funnily enough they used ESU Electronics!)… if your that unhappy send it back? 5 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 27 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27 53 minutes ago, 97406 said: When I got my first DCC ready 56, I installed a boggo LaisDCC decoder as a temporary measure to get it running. I then waited for my second loco to arrive with sound to decide on whether to install and configure the Lokpilot decoder, wait for a configured decoder from Cavalex, or go for a sound upgrade. The fact that half the functions didn’t work with the LaisDCC was not an issue. No doubt I could have tweaked its configuration if need be, but the intention was always to get one designed for the purpose after buying recent locos from Bachmann and Accuascale. Unless you’re really into DCC programming (and it’s something I’d like to do when time allows), I’m happy to get the proper one from the manufacturer or a third party supplier. I don’t see a problem here. That was pretty much my intention originally, all be it that I was planning to keep it running on the cheaper decoder while a couple of other locos that were further ahead in the list got sound. Now I am planning to get the sound upgrade kit once it comes out to get the loco running. Of course if I do somewhat regret not just buying a sound loco in the first place given that would no doubt have been a cheaper way to have done it, but by the time I ordered there were none left of the loco I needed with sound. Will learn from my mistake with the 60! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 16 minutes ago, The Fatadder said: That was pretty much my intention originally, all be it that I was planning to keep it running on the cheaper decoder while a couple of other locos that were further ahead in the list got sound. Now I am planning to get the sound upgrade kit once it comes out to get the loco running. Of course if I do somewhat regret not just buying a sound loco in the first place given that would no doubt have been a cheaper way to have done it, but by the time I ordered there were none left of the loco I needed with sound. Will learn from my mistake with the 60! The upgrade kit is looking to be around £120 so still saving around £20 on buying the parts separately, plus you get the correct plugs on the speaker etc as standard. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERandBR Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 45 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said: I have a problem with a Cavalex product, as such I am contacting Cavalex. If they deem it appropriate to contact ESU then that’s what they’ll do, but that’s down to them. You wouldn’t contact Samsung about an iPhone screen issue just because they made the screen. You would contact apple who made the product. You're not contacting Cavalex though are you, you're complaining to the rest of the world. Contact them directly and I'm sure they will provide you with as much support as they can. Nobody else here can assist you as much as Cavalex themselves can. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AY Mod Posted February 27 Author Moderators Popular Post Share Posted February 27 49 minutes ago, Bryn_Bach_Railway said: I have a problem with a Cavalex product, as such I am contacting Cavalex. You're still at it! I'm removing access to the topic so you'll have to use the proper channel rather than abusing this one. 12 2 10 1 22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br60066 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 41 minutes ago, RBE said: The upgrade kit is looking to be around £120 so still saving around £20 on buying the parts separately, plus you get the correct plugs on the speaker etc as standard. Do we have a rough ETA on the upgrade kit? It’s hard to find the speaker you guys use likely because it’s so good and everyone’s upgrading! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 17 minutes ago, Br60066 said: Do we have a rough ETA on the upgrade kit? It’s hard to find the speaker you guys use likely because it’s so good and everyone’s upgrading! We are looking at around a months time. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold zr2498 Posted February 27 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, RBE said: We are looking at around a months time. Dash - I should have waitied and saved £40 on two 56s. BUT that is an extra month of enjoying the sound 🙂 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 The benefits of buying DCC fitted from the outset beautifully demonstrated. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XChris Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 5 hours ago, rob D2 said: Enough BBR, this isn’t your private thread. If you want to carry on, please direct message them or something Well said!! And well done to @AY Mod! That’s the 2nd/3rd thread I’ve seen them derail with an endless DCC, anti ESU rant! Do it privately and be polite! I feel bad for the folks at Cavalex who’ve had to deal with him! 4 9 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 97406 Posted February 27 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, Br60066 said: Do we have a rough ETA on the upgrade kit? It’s hard to find the speaker you guys use likely because it’s so good and everyone’s upgrading! It’s the 50344 like the one on here https://modelmarket.co.uk/collections/dcc-speakers The only thing I haven’t got is the clips but I’m quite happy to use black tack. ETA The plug’s larger than the socket but I got away with filing it down til it fitted so didn’t need to solder the wires in place. Edited February 27 by 97406 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JN Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 25/02/2024 at 14:01, AY Mod said: In what way are statements of fact insulting? I will give you an opinion ('A bit of a sad reflection') of a possible fact ('effectively killing the idea off for good'), but 'A bit of a sad reflection of the how little some were prepared to do even 12-15 years ago effectively killing the idea off for good' is not a factual statement. Also, pre-liveried items have been available since model railways began. Am I telling you that your preference is 'A bit of a sad reflection' of something? No. I did not realise I was objectively ruining the hobby for you or for anyone. Sorry if I am, but I do not believe I am doing so. Would you prefer me to stop? Presumably so if me buying models the way models are produced is factually 'A bit of a sad reflection' of something. Perhaps people have other priorities outside the hobby or different priorities within the hobby (I am collecting route information then I can drive the train according to that) or have wider tolerances generally. Some people build kits or modify or scratch build an item rather than buying (fairly) generic ready-to-run models. That is all fine. Some people do not have the skill, space or time to do the same as you or James Makin. Seemed to me you were lamenting this for whatever reason. I do not have the skill or space to do everything, but last I checked I am allowed to buy an off-the-shelf model which coincides with the particular theme I am going for. You seem to be complaining off-the-shelf models which may or may not need further modification are available to the experienced an inexperienced modeller given 'A bit of a sad reflection of the how little some were prepared to do even 12-15 years ago effectively killing the idea off for good'. You replied claiming this as 'a fact' not as an opinion. I am struggling with getting the nameplate straight even with the jig. I am also struggling with the double arrows and the piping. That is even having done Airfix kits. I have noticed I have probably clipped off the left-hand guard/step at the number two end when I rested the locomotive on one end, so I could hopefully attach the piping more easily. I probably bent the aerial with my sleeve when reaching over. I will just have to learn. The last time I tried putting on numbers etc, well, that did not go well. Putting the big numbers on was fine, but I made a mess of the TOPS panel. I also made a botch of making wagons despite having made Airfix kits. This is aside from the electronics of a locomotive. If I can buy unique numbers on the model already I will do that. I would be prepared to tolerate replicating wagon numbers as a way to compromise on not making a botch of renumbering - the whole do not let the best become an enemy of the good. Models are a simulacrum for me. I can cope with a train just looking similar to the train I am trying to represent rather than I need the model train to be a perfect scaled down version of (for example) 6D43. I as with everyone else buy the best I can afford. I am not sorry for buying an item. I asked for advice in this thread and only one person responded. I have followed his advice and ordered the blacktack. Did you respond? Does not matter as someone else gave advice and no-one has infinite time to help everyone. I looked at James Makin's thread for advice on attaching nameplates etc. I watched an Everard Jn (and a few others) video of him attaching a nameplate. I bought cocktail sticks and some PVA glue as well as varnish. I will try the blacktack before trying the varnish. I just hope I can make a really thin strip of 'tack, so the nameplate and arrows do not look silly and (in scale) hyper-elevated. I do not see how any of this reduces your enjoyment of modelling railways. Not as much of an achievement as scratch building and painting and creating your own transfers? I agree with that, but some people just want something to do rather than doing the hobby to win competitions. I am fine with that and the latter is more where I am at. The BR Blue Doncaster layouts and other layouts are quality layouts despite not every item having been built from scratch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted February 27 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27 TL;DR Numbered and named locos sold out way before unnumbered ones = fact which proves my statement. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 49 minutes ago, JN said: I will give you an opinion ('A bit of a sad reflection') of a possible fact ('effectively killing the idea off for good'), but 'A bit of a sad reflection of the how little some were prepared to do even 12-15 years ago effectively killing the idea off for good' is not a factual statement. Also, pre-liveried items have been available since model railways began. Am I telling you that your preference is 'A bit of a sad reflection' of something? No. I did not realise I was objectively ruining the hobby for you or for anyone. Sorry if I am, but I do not believe I am doing so. Would you prefer me to stop? Presumably so if me buying models the way models are produced is factually 'A bit of a sad reflection' of something. Perhaps people have other priorities outside the hobby or different priorities within the hobby (I am collecting route information then I can drive the train according to that) or have wider tolerances generally. Some people build kits or modify or scratch build an item rather than buying (fairly) generic ready-to-run models. That is all fine. Some people do not have the skill, space or time to do the same as you or James Makin. Seemed to me you were lamenting this for whatever reason. I do not have the skill or space to do everything, but last I checked I am allowed to buy an off-the-shelf model which coincides with the particular theme I am going for. You seem to be complaining off-the-shelf models which may or may not need further modification are available to the experienced an inexperienced modeller given 'A bit of a sad reflection of the how little some were prepared to do even 12-15 years ago effectively killing the idea off for good'. You replied claiming this as 'a fact' not as an opinion. I am struggling with getting the nameplate straight even with the jig. I am also struggling with the double arrows and the piping. That is even having done Airfix kits. I have noticed I have probably clipped off the left-hand guard/step at the number two end when I rested the locomotive on one end, so I could hopefully attach the piping more easily. I probably bent the aerial with my sleeve when reaching over. I will just have to learn. The last time I tried putting on numbers etc, well, that did not go well. Putting the big numbers on was fine, but I made a mess of the TOPS panel. I also made a botch of making wagons despite having made Airfix kits. This is aside from the electronics of a locomotive. If I can buy unique numbers on the model already I will do that. I would be prepared to tolerate replicating wagon numbers as a way to compromise on not making a botch of renumbering - the whole do not let the best become an enemy of the good. Models are a simulacrum for me. I can cope with a train just looking similar to the train I am trying to represent rather than I need the model train to be a perfect scaled down version of (for example) 6D43. I as with everyone else buy the best I can afford. I am not sorry for buying an item. I asked for advice in this thread and only one person responded. I have followed his advice and ordered the blacktack. Did you respond? Does not matter as someone else gave advice and no-one has infinite time to help everyone. I looked at James Makin's thread for advice on attaching nameplates etc. I watched an Everard Jn (and a few others) video of him attaching a nameplate. I bought cocktail sticks and some PVA glue as well as varnish. I will try the blacktack before trying the varnish. I just hope I can make a really thin strip of 'tack, so the nameplate and arrows do not look silly and (in scale) hyper-elevated. I do not see how any of this reduces your enjoyment of modelling railways. Not as much of an achievement as scratch building and painting and creating your own transfers? I agree with that, but some people just want something to do rather than doing the hobby to win competitions. I am fine with that and the latter is more where I am at. The BR Blue Doncaster layouts and other layouts are quality layouts despite not every item having been built from scratch. I am not sure what you are saying here? That you want the nameplates and pipework pre fixed? I am always happy to give advice regarding fitting nameplates and pipework etc. I must admit I never saw any of your posts asking for help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I think cavalex are to be commended for name plate guides, I’ve not seen that before . JN, I use tamiya low tack masking tape as a guide on cab sides . I then use 2 tiny dots of “ glue and glaze “ ( cos it dries clear if I really cock it up ) and place said item on top. Can also use tiny drops of varnish - always applied minutely with end of a cocktail stick 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 7 hours ago, rob D2 said: I think cavalex are to be commended for name plate guides, I’ve not seen that before . JN, I use tamiya low tack masking tape as a guide on cab sides . I then use 2 tiny dots of “ glue and glaze “ ( cos it dries clear if I really cock it up ) and place said item on top. Can also use tiny drops of varnish - always applied minutely with end of a cocktail stick I've not tried glue and glaze so will give it a go next time. Otherwise I do the same. JN my biggest tip is less is more. I.e. apply small amounts. I use matt varnish and if any seeps through have a small brush with thinners to hand to run over the seepage which with a dry brush can be soaked up. It's a useful technique to learn for any type of painting with enamels.... I guess I mess up on everything I do just that I'm learning how to correct stuff 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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