Bachmann announce NEW Class 47

[maico]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes indeed, you could use any of your fingers to poke them up/down, or even somebody else's fingers !

 

These spinning ventilation fans are digitally controlled too. Good luck getting your digits through the grill...

 

https://www.trix.de/en/products/details/article/22432/

Edited August 6, 2021 by maico

[atom3624]

3,800 hp diesel - quite nice!!

[No Decorum]

3 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

They could re release the older tooling, but it probably wouldn’t be budget. The last ones were £169.99 rrp before being removed from the website. Although they could’ve done what they did with the 45s, 66s and later 37s and reduce the price. I suspect the reason they haven’t offered the older ones is the same reason Hornby don’t do many railroad HSTs. I’m sure the majority wouldn’t care about the detail differences and just buy the cheaper one, if the vocal voices on Facebook and etc are to be believed. Hopefully with the new duff we see re-releases of the MK2F in blue and executive! With a decent number of TSOs! 

The removal of the last models from the website is the answer (“no”) to whether or not Bachmann will continue to produce the older model. Bachmann has said that the old ones removed from the website will be produced using the new tooling.

[Zunnan]

11 hours ago, maico said:

!

 

It's already been done! The driver pops up in the direction of travel and the pantographs can be raised digitally depending on direction too...

 

https://www.trix.de/produkte/details/article/22932

 

 

 

I'm not so keen personally, the driver just flips down to the side and looks like someone in the rear cab is suffering a medical emergency, and thats in the H0 cabs which have less glazing to look into. Just imagine this inside the cab of a Western! I agree its a nice idea in theory, but in person and up close it looks a bit more...concerning.

[The Black Hat]

17 hours ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

That seems to answer all  that moaning about "will they sell?, is there the market for this new model? Is it too expensive?"

Well, if its true that its already selling out, then the answers would seem to be 'yes','yes' and 'definately not' in that order.

Maybe Bachmann do actually know their market better than the experts on here.

Or could it be that in light of the perception of smaller batches being produced people are rushing to buy them, rather than see what stock arrives and whether there are more to be allocated to shops that have sold their initial pre-order batch. Similar things happened with the release of the 90s and 20s. 

[E100]

3 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

They could re release the older tooling, but it probably wouldn’t be budget. The last ones were £169.99 rrp before being removed from the website. Although they could’ve done what they did with the 45s, 66s and later 37s and reduce the price. I suspect the reason they haven’t offered the older ones is the same reason Hornby don’t do many railroad HSTs. I’m sure the majority wouldn’t care about the detail differences and just buy the cheaper one, if the vocal voices on Facebook and etc are to be believed. Hopefully with the new duff we see re-releases of the MK2F in blue and executive! With a decent number of TSOs! 

Hear hear on the complimentary TSO's in B&G

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, E100 said:

Hear hear on the complimentary TSO's in B&G

 

Wow!  Free carriages - now that's a bit of unexpected marketing!

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

The one note of caution is that as UK outline moves towards continential pricing is there a threat from the continental manufacturers starting to take an interest as the market valiues/margins moves into their range?

 

I think 2 factors will discourage them, though of course anything is possible:

1. Brexit - you now have the hassle of either setting up a UK operation or the hassle of shipping to what is now a foreign state.
2. the UK market is already very crowded with companies tooling new items, make any new entry risky due to the now constant threat of duplication.

[E100]

1 hour ago, 'CHARD said:

 

Wow!  Free carriages - now that's a bit of unexpected marketing!

Makes these 47's a true bargain haha. (I won't edit the first post for the comic effect)

[73080]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

With the possible exception of the original  batch, using material originally destined for 'Peaks'  the so called 'tinted windscreen' (which it isn't) was there from early on.  It shows up very obviously in my b&w pic, taken at Canton, of a brand new D1593 which can be found elsewhere on RMweb.  And to get the facts right the windscreen was not 'tinted' but had a film (according to one contemporaneous source it incorporated gold!) applied onto the glass, the glass itself was not tinted.   The extent to which it can be seen varied very much according to the angle of view and the  (natural) lighting of the subject.

 

I did take a photo of then  brand new D1502 at Newcastle but the angle and lack of natural light from the correct angle doesn't really give a clue either way about whether or not the film had been applied that early. But my photo of D1593 confirms that it was present on new build locos in June 1964 9and was probably there before that from what I can recall but can offer a confirmatory photo.

 

In discussing the Bachmann model, it is helpful to know if there was a film coating to the windscreens AND that film coating gave the appearance of a colour change or tint when viewing the windscreen AND what colour that might be.  For that reason, I have only been referencing colour photos.

 

Whilst you are factually correct that the windows were not tinted, I hope you will understand if some of us continue to use the term 'tint' or 'tinted' windscreens as shorthand for 'a film coating that gives the appearance of a colour tint at certain times and angles when viewing' the windscreen.

 

The Brush Type 4s (later class 47) were not released to traffic in number order.  The first Crewe built locos were not released to traffic until late January 1964.

 

The locos built by Brush that were released to traffic in 1962/63 were D1500 - D1549,  D1682 - D1697 and D1699 (D1698 was not released until 13 January 1964).  I can find no evidence from colour photos that any of these locomotives were ex-works with window glazing that produced a noticeable visual tint.

 

In contrast, D1724, which was released to traffic by Brush on 17 March 1964, had windscreens that produced a noticeably visual tint (as did D1730, 32 & 33 as stated in an earlier post).  Photos taken in 1965 of D1711, 20 & 22 also show a tinted effect to the windscreens.  D1711 was released to traffic on 20 January 1964.

 

It would appear that a change took place in the visual appearance of windscreens of locomotives released to traffic by Brush, probably during January 1964 and definitely by March 1964.

 

As for early Crewe built locomotives in ex-works condition, matters are less clear.

 

The colour photos that I have found of Crewe built locos in the D1550 - D1600 range in ex-works condition, show a total absence of a tinted appearance with any hint of pink or purple (like the Bachmann model).  Instead, the windscreens either appear to be neutral in colour or to have a dark blue tint.  This dark blue tint appears to be caused by shade and and angle of reflection, though I would not be surprised if there was also a film coating helping to cause it.

 

What I can be certain is this.  The slight dark blue tint on early Crewe built locos is distinctly different from the pink/purple tint found on later Brush built locos.  To confuse matters further, photos of some of these Crewe built locos in gfye livery in the late 1960s show a distinctly purple/pink hue to the windscreens. 

 

Perhaps the early Crewe built locos had windscreen coatings that did not initally cause a pink/purple tint, but with age or as grime accumulated such a tint became apparent.  Does anybody have expert knowlege on the subject ?

 

 

 

(Released to traffic dates taken from class47.co.uk website)

[gridwatcher]

22 hours ago, Krieghoff said:

Does anyone know where there are any Class 47 sound deluxe models left. Rails have all sold out and i cant locate any other suppliers who have them available to pre order. Thanks. 

Try Hattons 

[Chris56057]

Out of curiosity I've been looking on a well known auction site at some of the current 47's available and most are upwards of £120, some are near the £150 mark. When you factor in a DCC sound install, even if you do this yourself it makes the new models with sound quite good value. I'm referring to the non sound deluxe here, just sound fitted. 

 

Chris 

[andyman7]

30 minutes ago, Chris56057 said:

Out of curiosity I've been looking on a well known auction site at some of the current 47's available and most are upwards of £120, some are near the £150 mark. When you factor in a DCC sound install, even if you do this yourself it makes the new models with sound quite good value. I'm referring to the non sound deluxe here, just sound fitted. 

 

Chris 

Indeed, S/H values for modern China-made superdetail hold up very well. This is why I don't really have any time for anyone complaining about the price of the new Bachmann ones, because if you want a model of a Class 47, you really now have the ultimate choice with prices ranging from around £25 to £300+ taking you through old Hornby/Lima S/H, Hornby Railroad/Vitrains, original Heljan 47, numerous iterations of the Bachmann 47 right through to this new model. Attached is an image of a superdetailed 'old' Hornby model that's come my way through a job lot just so you can see what's still possible sub-£40.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by andyman7

[stovepipe]

 

32 minutes ago, Chris56057 said:

Out of curiosity I've been looking on a well known auction site at some of the current 47's available and most are upwards of £120, some are near the £150 mark. When you factor in a DCC sound install, even if you do this yourself it makes the new models with sound quite good value. I'm referring to the non sound deluxe here, just sound fitted. 

 

Chris 

Second-hand prices have gone daft over the last 18 months, buying new often seem better value at the moment - especially if you can find some old stock somewhere.

[Chris56057]

23 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Indeed, S/H values for modern China-made superdetail hold up very well. This is why I don't really have any time for anyone complaining about the price of the new Bachmann ones, because if you want a model of a Class 47, you really now have the ultimate choice with prices ranging from around £25 to £300+ taking you through old Hornby/Lima S/H, Hornby Railroad/Vitrains, original Heljan 47, numerous iterations of the Bachmann 47 right through to this new model. Attached is an image of a superdetailed 'old' Hornby model that's come my way through a job lot just so you can see what's still possible sub-£40.

 

Plenty of options available now, even some  of the old Lima stuff has some relevance if you re-motor it or stick it under a Vi-Trains or Hornby Railroad chassis with some further detailing work. 

I don't mind the Heljan model myself, although I understand its inaccuracies. 

 

This latest model from Bachmann is a winner though and I will be pre ordering a sound fitted version of 375 for sure. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Chris56057

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, Zunnan said:

 

I'm not so keen personally, the driver just flips down to the side and looks like someone in the rear cab is suffering a medical emergency…….

….…….I agree its a nice idea in theory, but in person and up close it looks a bit more...concerning.

That depends on how well it’s implemented.

It isn’t beyond the realms of possibility to have the driver disappear from view completely.

For example, for the driver and seat to flip over and be replaced by an empty drivers seat.

 

On DCC, you could remap the appropriate function to F 0

Then when you want the driver in the driving cab to disappear, you just select F 0.

 

 

.

[scottrains29]

8 hours ago, Zunnan said:

the driver just flips down to the side and looks like someone in the rear cab is suffering a medical emergency

That's the consequence of Bachmann not providing an opening cab door for him to get out!

[adb968008]

20 hours ago, Zunnan said:

 

I'm not so keen personally, the driver just flips down to the side and looks like someone in the rear cab is suffering a medical emergency, and thats in the H0 cabs which have less glazing to look into. Just imagine this inside the cab of a Western! I agree its a nice idea in theory, but in person and up close it looks a bit more...concerning.

 

12 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

That depends on how well it’s implemented.

It isn’t beyond the realms of possibility to have the driver disappear from view completely.

For example, for the driver and seat to flip over and be replaced by an empty drivers seat.

The old ways are the best…

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by adb968008

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I think 2 factors will discourage them, though of course anything is possible:

1. Brexit - you now have the hassle of either setting up a UK operation or the hassle of shipping to what is now a foreign state.
2. the UK market is already very crowded with companies tooling new items, make any new entry risky due to the now constant threat of duplication.

it all comes down to the ROI and if its worth it.

Certainly in the past it wasn't Treasure Island when it came to OO gauge railway models in the UK. Things might be changing, when a £360 7x tooled loco sells out overnight of the announcement, that and other such high detailed higher priced models may attract yet more entrepreneurs, overseas businesses even other toymakers into dabbling in the model railway market.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by adb968008

[maico]

9 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I think 2 factors will discourage them, though of course anything is possible:

1. Brexit - you now have the hassle of either setting up a UK operation or the hassle of shipping to what is now a foreign state.
2. the UK market is already very crowded with companies tooling new items, make any new entry risky due to the now constant threat of duplication.

 

Point one is daft!  Marklin-Trix is distributed by Gaugemaster in the UK and there are dealers selling it.. The German companies Piko, Brawa and Austrian Roco ship German, American, French, Polish, Swedish etc. outline 1/87 scale all over the World.

I'm sure they have no intention of making something in an obscure 1/76 scale no one else uses. If the UK was Ho I expect the situation would be different.

 

Although the sub £200 market appears saturated there might be a small gap for metal bodied diesels.

Edited August 6, 2021 by maico

[adb968008]

22 minutes ago, maico said:

 

Point one is daft!  Marklin-Trix is distributed by Gaugemaster in the UK. The German companies Piko, Brawa and Austrian Roco ship German, American, French, Polish, Swedish etc. outline 1/87 scale all over the World.

I'm sure they have no intention of making something in an obscure 1/76 scale no one else uses. If the UK was Ho I expect the situation would be different.

Heljan, ViTrains, Lima, Jouef, Fleischmann.. all European, all have historically made UK outline, all of which entered before The Maastricht Treaty made things “easy”.

 

so never say never.

Admittedly its unlikely many of todays European names will directly enter, but to 100% dismiss it..

 

More likely is a European company accepting a commission from a UK company to make something.. (I believe that has happened already in the last couple of years)… it offers minimal risk for the revenue, and if delays in China, Costs increase, but the UK market is lucrative enough to support it, the chances of more wagons / coaches coming from Europe increases… its already happening from the US, with BLI and Rapido making to order comissions in the UK.

 

Metal body is certainly the new emerging trend, and super detailing technology is certainly making it viable for quality, in wagons and steam, but i’m not sure a diesel business case exists yet, its been more about weight, and diesels aren't short of it.

I wonder how much different the tooling cost is in relation to injection moulding ?

Edited August 6, 2021 by adb968008

[maico]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Heljan, ViTrains, Lima, Jouef, Fleischmann.. all European, all have historically made UK outline.

 

so never say never.

Admittedly its unlikely many of todays European names will directly enter, but to 100% dismiss it..

 

More likely is a European company accepting a commission from a UK company to make something.. (I believe that has happened already in the last couple of years)… it offers minimal risk for the revenue, and if delays in China, Costs increase, but the UK market is lucrative enough to support it, the chances of more wagons / coaches coming from Europe increases… its already happening from the US, with BLI and Rapido making to order comissions in the UK.

 

I've got a Fleischmann Warship with Mk1 coaches, it's Ho. The connection of course is the prototype was of German lineage. These days Fleischmann is only N gauge after Roco bought the company.

German Trix used to make British outline N gauge, an A3 and Mk1 coaches. A dated product that Marklin dropped in 1999 after buying Trix.

Hornby owned Lima, Jouef are out of the equation so of the larger established brands that leaves Kato...

LS Models make excellent coaches in China but I can't see them taking on Bachmann or Hornby even though their product is better it's more expensive.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by maico

[adb968008]

41 minutes ago, maico said:

 

I've got a Fleischmann Warship with Mk1 coaches, it's Ho. The connection of course is the prototype was of German lineage. These days Fleischmann is only N gauge after Roco bought the company.

German Trix used to make British outline N gauge, an A3 and Mk1 coaches. A dated product that Marklin dropped in 1999 after buying Trix.

Hornby owned Lima, Jouef are out of the equation so of the larger established brands that leaves Kato...

LS Models make excellent coaches in China but I can't see them taking on Bachmann or Hornby even though their product is better it's more expensive.

 

Nice prose, but conveniently ignored Heljan…definitely Danish/European and very active in both HO and OO..

 

they still make HO, the DSB IC3 are a very recent release, theyve made a 66 too in HO, and are firmly embedded in the UK OO market. They also price their models according to their market… HO is much more expensive than OO… if you wince at Bachmann's OO 66 prices, don't look at Heljans HO one.

 

Dont forget too Bachmann and Liliput are linked… 

not to forget Hornby, Peco and Dapol do good business in Europe too.

 

Theres at least 2 other EU manufacturers that have anecdotally been linked to a UK retailer comission, and another to a UK manufacturer in the last few years.

 

At the end of the day its business, not emotion, if the numbers stack up, theres no barrier that cannot be overcome… at £360+ a loco, the numbers start looking more attractive to new entrants, where they are from is less relevant.

indeed our existing companies might do well to look at RRPs of existing stock (Hornby just added 10%, including their class 71’s and k1’s which are how old ?).

 

anyway we are wandering too far from the yellow brick road…

 

to wander back, I assume Bachmann wasnt adventurous enough to consider a Cuban 47 or a 47901 in their toolsets ?  (they did afterall tool variations to the WD for a Hong Kong, KCR and Dutch, NS version).

Edited August 7, 2021 by adb968008

[maico]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Metal body is certainly the new emerging trend, and super detailing technology is certainly making it viable for quality, in wagons and steam, but i’m not sure a diesel business case exists yet, its been more about weight, and diesels aren't short of it.

I wonder how much different the tooling cost is in relation to injection moulding ?

 

See my post on the metal-bodied Hornby B12. I paid £112 new for it recently. Hornby in their wisdom doesn't charge a premium over plastic. The Marklin factory tour video on Youtube shows the additional filing by hand and CNC finishing required for zinc alloy diecast over plastic injection moulding. The modern Roco equipment shown in their video shows remarkably clean bodies coming straight out of the mould. The cost differences must be significant.

 

Most of my collection is German Ho Trix bought used. All are metal including tenders and passenger cars on the SVT 137 DMU. Also a couple of Brawa Diesels made in China with metal bodies. Makes a big difference to perceived quality.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by maico

[Chris56057]

Getting back on to the topic of the new Bachmann 47... 

 

Do we know when these will be hitting the shops? I've seen November/December quoted on the Kernow site...