Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[lezz01]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Hell, @simonmcp that's quite the combo! Fingers x'd for a smooth road from here to recovery for you. As for CAD, that's incredibly kind of you but please don't feel the need to on my account - there's no rush for them at all, and I could do with the incentive to get to grips with Fusion :)

 

@Din no dramas at all mate, just thought I'd give a gentle reminder that we haven't forgotten about your project whilst things have been quiet. Sounds like a great idea, but if it were easy we'd all be doing it!

 

No progress yesterday, but some thinking time. The middle of the layout is currently pretty bare:

(as per, very WIP etc etc etc)

 

With apologies to those who've been following for a while, and have seen all this before, at the front is planned a coaling scene inspired by this photo from Frank Gegg's coal concern at Cirencester, 1904:

Lots to take from this, but note the office and weighbridge in the background - what looks a lot like a ground van body between the bloke with the pole in the bow of the boat and the background billboards.

 

When we think of weighbridges, it's normally this sort of thing which springs to mind

which is all well and good, but not appropriate for the modeled bit of Ingleford on any level. Something like this, however,

might be. A hut barely tall enough to stand up in (could it in fact be a grounded van body?) , and with a plate barely large enough for a cart...that fits the tone more, and there might be room for it. Joey was, apparently, Frank's favourite horse.

 

'Cos it's a brilliant pic, and for cart detail:

 

And a little bit on the man himself, for interest:

Every canal wharf had to have its haulier; otherwise cargoes could not be shifted to and from their final destinations. Frank Gegg of Cirencester was no doubt typical. The Gegg family had various interests in Cirencester, and in 1889 Frank started a coal merchant's business on the canal wharf. While at first he probably relied on water-borne coal, he soon had to find alternatives, and much of it must of come by rail instead. He continued in business until 1921 and then probably sold out to a rival. It was under his initiative that the narrow boat Staunch brought coal into Cirencester in 1904.

 

So that's one option to add a little more interest away from the canal edge. Looking at some other local traders along the Stroudwater and Thames and Severn Canal, eg

 

from 1867 and 1894 respectively, suggests another. 

 

The little old Cambrian 2-plank seen above is to have a load of slates fitted at some point; the trow will probably be unloading roadstone from Chepstow way*. This means a small stacking ground for slates and stone towards the rear of the wharf would be appropriate, coherent, and quite controllable in terms of visual impact.

 

As yet undecided, and no idea how to model any of the above, but those are my thoughts at the moment. Yours?

 

*Trows predominantly carried coal, but stone was a notable second in terms of quantity shifted. Coal being taken care of by the longboat, this seemed a sensible load to give her. Coal, stone, corn and Baltic softwoods were the main inbound cargos to the region - by canal, and subsequently rail - with local timber being the sole regular outbound cargo.

 

I don't know about a grounded van body it looks more like a MR ground frame hut to me. It has the right size and the roof is about the right radius for it to have started out as one anyway.

Regards Lez. 

[Schooner]

@WFPettigrew Genius, that's a great option and I had a couple of bits in the basket with West Hill - order placed!

 

4 hours ago, lezz01 said:

...a MR ground frame hut...

Interesting. Although just around the corner from the GWR terminus, the weighbridge isn't shown on the 1875 25" OS map. It is shown on the 1901 revision, which is after Gegg set up (1889 - a year straddled by the arrival of the M&SWJ in 1883 and the conversion of its terminus to a through station in 1891). It's plausible that a ground frame hut would've become surplus to railway requirements about this time...?

 

A quick trawl of the Midland Railway Study Centre didn't dredge up anything definitive, photos and plans showing plenty of wriggly tin:

but Google also suggested this

http://www.derby-signalling.org.uk/NK/FJgf.jpg

in the neighbourhood of Fiskerton. Again, not a dead ringer, but interesting.

 

Modeling today has been away from the layout:

 

...and now I'm wondering what colour it should be before painting the body and attaching it to the chassis. The body went fairly smoothly, the chassis less so. Short sessions are still the way forwards, cos when I ignore that the results go downhill (hence the un-filed wheels etc, it was all about risk reduction by that point!).

 

A little research into liveries* and perhaps it'll get a lick of paint this evening.

 

*Is this going to be a coal cart? It's on the finer, lighter, end of this and might not be the most appropriate...

Edited November 9, 2022 by Schooner
Pic management

[Compound2632]

Is that a Severn Models kit? (Appropriate if it is!)

 

There was an article on Midland corrugated huts in Midland Record, with drawings, I'm sure...

 

However I'm not convinced the weighbridge hut in the photo is related to any of these. The roof-board says "Frank Gegg & Co.'s Weighbridge" so I don't think it's railway-supplied equipment at all.

 

Note that the horse is not standing on the weighbridge; presumably the weight taken by the horse with an empty and a laden cart is close enough the same to not worry about.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[Harlequin]

I had a quick go at modelling the Brimscombe vents in Sketchup just by eye:

 

Not sure about the size or proportions and I haven't got the pinnacle quite right but it looks vaguely convincing.

 

[Schooner]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Is that a Severn Models kit? (Appropriate if it is!)

Haha, sadly no - it's the Shire Scenes kit. It'll be interesting to compare the etch to the white metal Langley and Dart Castings offerings once their argh they're (all built up and painted. Initial impression is in favour of the brass...

 

The brick weighbridge office in the earlier post however...!

 

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

...it looks vaguely convincing.

It does indeed, not bad for "a quick go"! Hmmm... :)

Edited November 9, 2022 by Schooner
Doh!

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

*Is this going to be a coal cart?

Either the brass or white metal "dung carts" from the Shire Scenes/Dart Castings ranges might be a better starting point for a coal cart?

[Schooner]

I thought so too - they're on their way already :) 

 

The plan, insofar as there is one, is for the float to go around the platform somewhere. On the platform even, or maybe replacing the dray in the below:

 

Waggon colours

The best two easy-access sources: Words and pictures. Honourable mentions to a pair of museums, one with a massive collection of horse-drawn vehicles the other with its own 2' gauge light railway. TL,DR: Bodies of blue or yellow, road gear of red.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Schooner
PS. Possible view block https://merl.reading.ac.uk/collections/merl-object-collection/millers-wagon/

[Harlequin]

Improved roof vent:

 

I will upload the STL file for printing after I've done a few checks and maybe tried a print (but my record with 3D printing is, ahem, variable). Then anyone's welcome to use it and see if they can get a decent print.

 

Who needs Shapeways?

 

[Schooner]

Geddon, that looks great @Harlequin! Who needs Shapeways indeed! An RMWeb-esque STL library is something I often wonder how to bring up in conversation/bring about. Caveats abound, but there's so much brilliant design work that goes on in the various blogs, it'd be amazing to increase awareness of and improve access to it. Annnnnyway...

 

A scenic thought last night, using what was to hand:

Nothing wildly exciting, but I wondered if something like the above might be a good use of that space. The previous idea was just for a load of crates under a tarp, which is a bit dull. Mills/warehouses in the area covered all sorts, but there was a weighting towards textile and corn. The less specific the better, to excuse Rule 1 rail traffic, but it'd be nice to come up with a static scene (it's always lunch break at Ingleford after all) which still suggests the back of a small but busy industry.

 

This morning the postie dropped off my recent eBay win:

 

Once undressed and sides straightened out...

...she looks like that. The kit includes both grease/oil axle boxes and standard/reversible breaks, meaning the van can - according to the destructions - represent any date from initial introduction c.1875 to withdrawal from even departmental use c.1930. As-built for me, obviously. I had a little chuckle at the realisation that the kit itself, designed in '99, is about as old as the vehicle it depicts on the layout. A new criterion for stock selection...?!

 

By and large she went together quickly and cleanly.

Which was a blessing, not least because I'm still working in fits and starts and with a particularly high risk of operator error with all tasks!

 

That said, I remembered the cock-up with my last DG kits (the round-end 3-planks):

...and although ugly AF, the van rolls very sweetly indeed (aided by weighing about its 12":1' tare!). The pic is of a dry test fit, bearings and wheels went in square for the final fit!

 

Sides together, a waft of primer to check for howlers, and it was plasticard floor time:

...and lid o'clock:

Verandah?! 

 

Up and running:

 

She'll stay in primer until a painting mood strikes but I can't wait to cover up what looks scarily like a post-Grouping...or...worse...Midland...livery!

 

So where does that leave us with the GWR 1895-1905ish stock set?

• 2 x round 3-planks (red; DG whitemetal kits)
• 2 x flat 4-planks (grey; Rapido)
• 2 x iron mink (red; Rails)
• 1 x iron mink (grey, Rapido)
• 1 x wooden 'mink' (red; DG whitemetal kit)
• 1 x siphon O1 (brown; Diagram3D mixed media kit)
• 1 x AA16 break van (grey; D&S whitemetal)

Very open to suggestions on this :)

 

My initial reactions/responses:

• You only need 8 for an inglenook puzzle, what's going on? 
  • Shhh. Anyway, the aim is for each stock-set to have about 12 wagons +/- a couple of 'wildcards'. So double shhh.
• More vans than opens...you sure about that?
  • Yeeaaah, not ideal but there's a bit of a plan for that (see below)
• Red and grey, fine, you're modelling a transition period. Red and grey versions of the same livery on the same stock though...really?!
  • So the plan is (probably) to ditch the Rails mink*. This means that, in the world of Ingleford   Rapido at least, grey came in with the standardization of RH G.W.R. in c.1893. I had been eyeing up a Coopercraft cast-plate 4-plank, to address the van/open ratio (becoming a more reasonable 3:5) and increase variety.
• One of those is card, some plastic, some are large lumps of metal. What are you going to do about weighting?
  • Trial-and-error with tyre weights and liquid gravity. I suspect if I try to go for equal weighting then the little locos employed on the wharf will struggle at suitable speeds; if I don't then there's an increased risk of derailment. We'll just have to suck it and see.

 

*I was pleased to support Rails when they came out with a Mink correct in livery and detail for pre-Grouping modellers...but...that detail isn't particularly great and, crucially, the running out of the box was unacceptable, with wheel flanges wearing on framing and floor. Gibson wheelset mitigates but does not resolve this. I'm also pleased to support Rapido's move into GWR pre-Grouping, and I suspect it'll prove the superior product when it arrives. So, on a little canal-side yard with room for only limited van traffic, it looks to be an easy contest as to who goes and who stays. We'll see...

 

Plan for tomorrow = hoover the layout!

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

So where does that leave us with the GWR 1895-1905ish stock set?

 

Have you moved your period forward a bit? I'd thought you were aiming for mid-80s? Limiting stock in your list are the iron minks (from 1886) and 4-planks (from 1887) - so early 90s would be OK. (Don't know about Siphons.)

[Schooner]

On 10/11/2022 at 20:24, Compound2632 said:

I'd thought you were aiming for mid-80s

 Three companies, three dates!

 

Private (freelance), mid-70s: Neilson 0-4-0T with stock from @5&9Models

Midland, mid-80s: MW H 0-4-0T with stock from @billbedford

GW, mid-90s*: ??? with stock as seen

 

*You're right, there's no need to think of anything post-1900. I'd got it into my head that, because I'm in the 'red livery till c.1904' camp, if the layout in GW guise included the grey Rapido wagons then the timeframe had to be stretched. Ignore that (why not) then the mid-1890s date is acceptable. That said, I'm not sure how much the label really impacts such a loose setting!

 

 

On 10/11/2022 at 20:24, Compound2632 said:

Don't know about Siphons

From 1873 for the 4-wheel O1s. Neither model nor modeler are accurate enough to date the depicted edition!

Edited November 12, 2022 by Schooner
Siphon update

[Schooner]

On 09/11/2022 at 19:31, WFPettigrew said:

white metal "dung carts" from the Shire Scenes/Dart Castings

Out of the morning haze* comes the local delivery fleet

From L-R

Barrow

Market float

Milk cart (drop axle, shown sans mudguards)

Hay cart (same body as above, straight axle)

Tip cart (x2)
Farm wagon

Flat dray

Coal/brewer's trolley

Harvest cart

 

Obviously very WIP still, but interesting to compare them as kits and as vehicles.

 

Looking at the reference photo from Cirencester, I spy 3 x two-wheel carts and one 4-wheel. I think these should probably be the hay cart, both tip carts, and the farm wagon. The harvest cart looks the most ancient design to my eye, and will probably lurk around the 'old wharf' on the RHS of the layout; the drays the most modern and so should be linked to the buildings at the back - perhaps as previously seen. There room for the milk and market floats around the platform, and barrow can do it's own thing! All subject to revision, of course :)

 

In other news

It really struck me yesterday that the visual impact, the perceived bulk, of the 7-plank minerals I've been using for testing is waaay greater than smaller, earlier, stock I'll be using for real. Even the Mink and the Siphon barely match them, wagon on wagon; a cut of the mineral wagons absolutely dominates an equivalent cut of the GWR set. The smaller, older, stock definitely helps make the layout seem more open than it might! 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Schooner
*I came-to around midday to find six completed carts in front of me. Not entirely sure how that happened, but I'll take it!

[MrWolf]

Probably a bit late to the party, but I remembered to get a photo of this, I could throw a rock at it from our house.

It's part of the old Yates & Jackson brewery, Lancaster. I got quite a few other general shots of the building, which is mostly stone construction if you're interested.

 

 

[Worsdell forever]

On 09/11/2022 at 19:31, WFPettigrew said:

Either the brass or white metal "dung carts" from the Shire Scenes/Dart Castings ranges might be a better starting point for a coal cart?

 

Quite literally a 'dung cart', Dart Castings. 

 

[Schooner]

38 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

if you're interested.

Always! 

 

That's some vent mind, probs a bit much for my purposes, but always keen for a poke about an old brewery.

 

30 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

Quite literally a 'dung cart', Dart Castings. 

I liked it before, and I'll happily like it again :) 

[MrWolf]

The slatted part is around 10' wide and 4' high, you can probably add 2'6" to the ridge and another foot to the top of the finials.

 

 

 

[Schooner]

 

On 20/06/2022 at 16:27, WFPettigrew said:

Some other similar-sized railways (like the Furness which I know slightly more about) went for a single sided single wheel brake arrangement before 1889...

 

 

...?

 

Thought I'd better check in before sorting out the paint! Changes lead by what was in the bits box rather than what the Cambrian actually did, but keen to know if it gives the right impression or no.

 

Horse drawn vehicles in primer; wooden mink in red; couplings played with but not started in earnest. About to look up where the end numbers, if any, should be on the siphon and mink...

 

Sorry, my mistake: 4-wheel Siphon O1s from 1873, 6-wheel O2s from 1879. Source.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Schooner
Siphon update

[WFPettigrew]

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

...?

 

If that quizzical eyebrow was directed in my direction - if you're intent on an FR one, then that's warm, but could be improved slightly.  I have sent you a PM with a couple of images which sadly I better not share publicly on here.  But the FR did not use wooden brake blocks for this type of brake, instead having cast iron blocks very similar to the more familiar, later wagon brake systems.   The lever was probably a tad longer even than you have here, and was pivoted around a rather attractive roughly semicircular casting mounted on the solebar. 

 

Wizard Models do sell both a suitable long handle brake (brass etch) and a whitemetal casting of the brake itself - if you search for "Furness" from the front page you will find both of these but sadly not an etch of the pivot casting. 

 

The FR had two types of 2 plank dropside wagon similar to your model - which the LMS era diagram book referred to as a "long side door".  

 

The first was the D16 of "Period 1890"* - 14' 11.5" over headstocks, 7' 3.5" wide, on an 8'6 wheelbase, of which there were 30 built - they were rated to 8 tons.  The second was a lot of 10 that were picked up by the FR in 1906, that had been built two years previously and had sat at Oldbury waiting for a buyer.  These (classed as Dia 7) were 17'11" by 7' 10.75" on 9'6" wheelbases and rated to 15 tons. 

 

Clearly the Dia 7 were of an era where they would have had to have at least single sided brakes acting on both wheels, as per the RCH specification of 1887.  Photographic evidence suggests the FR did not introduce brakes on both sides of its new wagons until it was required to do so - so its likely the Dia 7 were not offered such generosity of provision.

 

* The Dia 16 do present a bit of a mystery.  There is a photo in the Sankey collection showing what can only be a D16 which clearly has a single sided single wheel brake.  Ditto in the HMRS collection - a watermarked image from their website is attached.  The esteemed FR historian and modeller Ross Pochin produced a drawing of of the D16 which also showed a single sided single wheel brake.  Now this means the wagons must have entered service before 1889 when the 1887 standard became enforceable.  The FR diagram book states "period 1890" which is a fudge - perhaps understandable in a document drawn up over 30 years later - but it would be better stated 1880s given the evidence of the brakes. 

 

Finally - if you do want an FR foreigner at Ingleford (and why not?!) then as discussed a few weeks ago on the D299 thread on here, by far the most likely cargo would be a load of slate.  My understanding of the location of Ingleford would probably make Welsh, not Cumbrian, slate a more likely option, but the big quarry at Kirkby in Furness managed to flog some of its products to London and other "sundry places" under the noses of the Welsh agents, so maybe there was a mill near Ingleford owned by someone with family connections up north?!   If you do decide to pursue this, then the HMRS transfers are helpful for FR wagon lettering.  But a word of warning about the load: the slates will need the top corners dressed off which was a characteristic of Kirkby slate (though for one of your eras, be warned that until 1890 all the slates were dressed with a semi circular top - the "roundhead" which was a trademark until they realised it was rather wasteful, and time consuming to produce).   And don't fall into the trap so often seen of absolutely uniform sized slates - virtually all Kirkby output was "randoms" of both random width and height.  Since discovering this I have been looking up, and certainly here in Cumbria, any roof carring older slates has a marked variety of different width of slates on each row and usually the rows get narrower ie less height up the slope of the roof the nearer you get to the ridge.  There is a barn conversion near me which has just had a new slate roof put on, probably with Spanish slate, and it just doesn't look right compared to the older roof next door - simply because all the new slates are uniform size.  

 

Hope this is helpful?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Harlequin]

Roof vent update:

 

After a bit of adjustment it prints great. I added some internal supports because the vent slats were a bit delicate and some cross bracing to hold the bottom shape square. Neither should show from normal viewing angles. The slicing program added more supports than really needed and I haven't cleaned up the "pips" yet.

 

Here's the STL file:

Vent 5.stl

 

It was an interesting experiment in making an architectural detail from a photo. The slats and their perfect spacing would be very hard to model by hand, I think. Painted and weathered it should look really good.

 

@Schooner I hope this, or something like it, might be of some use on Ingleford Wharf.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Harlequin

[Schooner]

Many thanks once again for the excellent info - prototype and model - all much appreciated.

On 12/11/2022 at 22:12, WFPettigrew said:

Finally - if you do want an FR foreigner at Ingleford (and why not?!) then as discussed a few weeks ago on the D299 thread on here, by far the most likely cargo would be a load of slate.  My understanding of the location of Ingleford would probably make Welsh, not Cumbrian, slate a more likely option

Once again, spot on the money...it is indeed a CamRys kit, and intended to represent same - bringing slate down to the wharf! There might have been a risk of crossed wires in my adopting your advice for the FR on the grounds that CamRys might have followed similar practice at the time. I note Wizard only offers both-wheel brakes for the Cambrian.

 

I think for now I'll call it good enough, and once I'm on to a second pass of the stock I might look at what the Cambrian were really up to with their 1870s* stock and start again with a new kit.

 

*The wildcard stock must look at home in all three periods (c.1875-1895) rubbing shoulders with all three companies (private, MR, GWR). The other foreigner is an LNWR bolster because a) it was available, and b) I couldn't justify each set having it's own niche wagon!

 

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

I hope this, or something like it, might be of some use on Ingleford Wharf.

That looks perfect, and it absolutely will be - awaiting quotes from a couple 3D printers as I type :) Thank you for sharing the fruit of your labours, they look most excellent. Just the thing!

 

On 10/11/2022 at 17:55, Schooner said:

So where does that leave us with the GWR 1895-1905ish stock set?

Catching up on some relevant threads and posts and moving the GWR period back a decade to the original mid-90s, I think I might be missing a 2-plank from the line up.

 

If there was one, we'd be looking at five opens (2 x 4 planks, 2 x 3 planks, 1 x 2 plank. I think this is about the right spread for the period) against two vans (one wooden pre-Mink; one iron Mink) and a Siphon. 8 wagons as req. for Inglenookage.

 

To this Siphon I'd like to add a cattle wagon (outside framed W2) and a horsebox (I think an N6 would be appropriate and available, there's also the D&S N4 if I can track one down): heavy barges came from Gloucester with two horses; one took the empty barge back, the other went by rail the next day. That'd do for 'specials'. One more three- and four-plank wagon would take us to the target 12 wagons total. 

 

With a couple of wildcard wagons, it should mean the wharf is full of opens, with a van or two and a special wagon of some sort in view. I think this sounds about right, we're on track.

 

Three link couplings

Great success!

 

Now fitted to the 5 GWR wagons, the Slater's gear is a doddle and a joy to use! There's a bit of a mix of S&W, Slaters and Smiths links on show (with Slater's hooks on all but the Siphon, which has some unknown whitemetal beasts - these will be replaced ASAP). S&W are the prettiest, with the best-formed links out of the packet but are under-scale which makes the coupling on the snug side. Especially as none of these wagons have sprung buffers. Smiths are oversized but acceptable. Slaters are the right size, and perfectly usable.

 

A couple of sessions with these has totally converted me! I thought I better try three-links in case there was no room under the early wagons from 5&9 to take S&W couplings, thinking it would be a chore but a necessary evil. Not a bit of it! Using a lightly-magnetized scribe as a shunting pole I'm already making most couples in one movement, very rarely more than three. A greater success-rate than I was getting with S&Ws at a similar level of familiarity!

 

Thank you @Barclay and @MrWolf - spot on advice.

 

[Gypsy]

Looking great - very random question though - what did you use for that fantastic roof?!

[Schooner]

On 14/11/2022 at 16:16, Gypsy said:

Looking great - very random question though - what did you use for that fantastic roof?!

Bachmann's own! Nothing too clever with that one, straight out of the (second- or third-hand) box courtesy of that auction site, a lick of paint to bring it into the same tonal range as the rest of the layout, and plonked it down :) More paint to go, might reinstate the axle if not the entire wheel etc, but I can claim no credit for the roof!

 

Bit more paint, bit more coupling, bit more playing trains:

...y'know, just in case... :)

 

I must finish the brake van. Grounded van body (and white rectangle) are proxies for weighbridge and office...maybe.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Schooner
First pic added

[Gypsy]

Sorry - I meant the building in the background?!

[Schooner]

32 minutes ago, Gypsy said:

in the background

 

This roof in this background? It's part of the building, a ready-to-place one piece cast resin model of a watermill. Bachmann Scenecraft 44-051. No longer in production, but can still be found second hand :)

 

...or another one?!

[Gypsy]

That's the one - thanks very much!

 

Shame, I was hoping it was a moulded sheet that I'd somehow missed. I rather like the rustic look, reminds me of my place...