Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[AlfaZagato]

Which sprays are you using?   Black looks a bit like Citadel Chaos Black, which is ass.

[Schooner]

Noted - although I've seen Citadel paints pretty well used/reviewed round these parts...?

 

The black is The Army Painter's rattle can of matt black primer. No particular reason beyond availability at short notice, their own advertising pitches at the 'quantity over quality' market!

[MrWolf]

Re cranes, endless chains and Clyde pufferisms, this is the crane at Bledlow GWR. There's a few of this type on the S&D too.

 

 

I don't just make this stuff up you know... 🤣

[Fishplate]

What a lovely layout. Have hit 'follow'. Looking forward to seeing more.

[Schooner]

18 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I don't just make this stuff up you know... 🤣

 

🤣 No no, of course not! My apologies if that's how it came across, not accusations of invention intended for you, nor Ratio...

...nor the makers of all those chain hoists that got me out of some tricky spots, nor all those layouts with Clyde Puffers laying alongside the 3+3+5 sidings on Improbable Quay, at the end of a short, tightly curved, spur from Bucolic Road Station, the terminus of the Offstage Junction to Rural Idyll branch...! All these things existed, it's down to the owner/builder as to how they're combined into something they find enjoyable and absorbing.

 

In my case, in not knowing how these jib cranes worked, initially in relation to those in goods sheds, I had a look about to find an answer. Nothing cleverer than Google and tugging on threads, and from that my impression is that a typical crane set up as the Langley crane is, hardware-wise, a chain lift driven by a roped actuator wheel. 5/8" chain, 3 1/2" rope, according to Swindon drawings. No expert but I've seen enough to have an opinion, which is that Langley themselves...

...show their product set up in a manner inconsistent with the hardware on the crane to the point of being - for me - unconvincing.

 

Like Puffers, not 'wrong', just deviation from the norm and so requiring explanation/justification. For me and my layout, I'd rather not have to justify it to myself, but try to make it match my understanding, as best possible, in order not to break the spell of an immersive layout. That's the idea, anyway!

[MrWolf]

Apologies not necessary, there's very little means to add the comic intonation on my closing sentence, other than the daft emoji, a method of communication I'm not too adept with as I'm not a twelve year old girl.

 

You're right about the setup on the Langley crane picture, the windlass should have a wire rope and it certainly shouldn't be hanging slack like that. The weight of the lifting chain alone would pull the gears round so it was under some amount of tension.

 

I get what you mean about the unlikely versus the prototype for everything. It may exist in real life, but in model form it might look contrived. One example that sticks in my mind is the coal siding at Glenfield on the Leicester and Swannington (Later, Midland) Railway. It wasn't long enough for more than one wagon, yet it would look improbable in model form.

[drmditch]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Like Puffers, not 'wrong', just deviation from the norm and so requiring explanation/justification. For me and my layout, I'd rather not have to justify it to myself, but try to make it match my understanding, as best possible, in order not to break the spell of an immersive layout. That's the idea, anyway!

 

Sorry if we have had this conversation before, but if your quayside is in the South Country (or even better in the East or South East) would not a Sailing Barge be more appropriate than a Puffer?

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, drmditch said:

 

Sorry if we have had this conversation before, but if your quayside is in the South Country (or even better in the East or South East) would not a Sailing Barge be more appropriate than a Puffer?

 

As so often, almost anything would be more appropriate than a Puffer! Not here but re appropriate watercraft for the little up-river quays that are basis of so many models, I've previously made a suggestion in support of @The White Rabbit's proposal.

 

In my case, looking at a Stroudwater Navigation sort of vibe, it's a case of building a smallish open trow:

 

A Stroud(water) barge*:

*and/or 'Thames and Severn Canal barge'. Neither type are well recorded; none remain afloat. To the best of my current understanding, they are distinct types but followed a similar general form, with those working solely to the West of Brimscombe (Stroudwater) conforming to the c.70'x15'6" locks of the Stroudwater; those to the East (Thames and Severn) the c.74' length and 14' beam restrictions of the T&S and the upper Thames between Lechlade and Oxford respectively. As it happened, through traffic Bristol-London never really materialized in the quantities expected and the canal had a troubled history. 

 

Finally, of course, a coal-carrying longboat (in Severn parlance):

Photographed is James Smart's Trial, the same as seen in the reference photo of Cirencester Wharf.

 

To get back to @drmditch, my original point was more that if one is happy with a Clyde Puffer as generic little ship representing a generic little ship then nobody has a right to come stomping in saying it's wrong...

 

...but...

 

...the second one researches things a little more widely then

• one falls victim to what little knowledge has been accumulated - we know it's wrong atypical
• we're equipped with the information required to make it less wr-...atypical, and so might as well get on and do it!
• variations and compromises in those norms can be made on our terms, for our reasons, to tell our stories.

Puffers are a particularly jarring example of 'none of the above'. They're used because people like harbours, harbours need boats, and bizarrely there are about 7 different Puffers on the market vs. almost no other viable alternative. Compare this to, say, road vehicles post-1950, with which we're all familiar and are expected to a) get right and b) be told about it when we haven't. 

 

We all have non-railway areas about which we care and are well informed. For me the layout will be finished when the boat guy, and the horse-drawn-vehicle guy, and the architecture guy, and the botanist and the farmer, and of course the crane guy and the super-duper knobs-and-bells railway guy all look at the layout cold and place it in the right sort of place and period despite it being completely fictional and rather implausible!

[MrWolf]

Just to complicate matters, here's the 31 ton steamboat La Belle Marie moored at Brockweir up in the Wye valley, trows were also common, I have a picture of a couple moored at Llandogo.

 

https://m.facebook.com/ForestBygoneHistory/photos/a.10150369899392595/10153216284847595/?type=3

 

[AlfaZagato]

I think the biggest problem with a Clyde Puffer is that it is too distinct.   To my untrained eye, many of the alternatives posted look broadly the same.   If one made a kit of any of these, you'd satisfy many anti-Puffers.   Puffers look like Puffers, no matter how you cut it.

 

It's a shame many ocean-going ships are absolutely massive, even before Grouping.   Makes modelling harbors accurately difficult.

[Schooner]

Nice find @MrWolf!

and perhaps even more usefully for details

 

 

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

Llandogo

Great spot for all thing (railway) trucks'n'trows, and location of an all-time favourite photo

If only the photographer had hung around for a train!

 

I've been pottering around all day thinking that the "3 1/2 inch hemp rope" referred to in the Swindon drawing is, at a rule of thumb 4 ton per 1" diameter, a bit mighty for the task at hand, and far bigger than anything I'd seen in photos.

 

3 1/2" circumference!

 

Something like 1 1/8" diameter, much more like it for load and for handling. Scales down to about .3mm; #4 whipping twine (nominal, closer to .5mm). Trials of black drybrushed tan; and tan with a black wash:

One looks better in the photo, the other looks better in the flesh!

[MrWolf]

There's quite a lot of relevant information and pictures in The Wye Valley Railway and the Coleford Branch by B.M.Handley and R.Dingwall, Oakwood Press.

I googled the name of the vessel and the location from a photo caption in that book.

Given the source of the top photo, Monmouth museum may have quite a bit more information on the river traffic and industry.

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I think the biggest problem with a Clyde Puffer is that it is too distinct.   To my untrained eye, many of the alternatives posted look broadly the same.   If one made a kit of any of these, you'd satisfy many anti-Puffers.   Puffers look like Puffers, no matter how you cut it.

 

Exactly this. I suppose an equivalent would be if GWR pannier tanks had only ever worked the Falmouth branch! However, there are few other options as accessible or affordable. A pity, but then there's barely an acceptable butty narrowboat or rowing boat on the market in 1:76, so perhaps no surprise.

 

Ships are massive, as are ports, but then how many people model entire docksides? A reasonable sailing coaster could be 70-80' plus sticks; a steam coaster 80-100'...not small, but not huge and exactly right for the majority of settings seen on model railways. Even a more modern coaster or box boat  'only' take up about a meter of railway room. 

 

EDIT: Honourable mentions should go to Sarik, who have updated their Puffer to provide a more generic small coaster and Scale Scenes, who offer not just a Puffer but also a modern coaster and box boat, similar in style and size to the Deans Marine kits linked above but at a tiny fraction of the cost. Then again, they're not floating RC models - you pays your money...!

Edited November 29, 2022 by Schooner
Forgot some important links!

[Schooner]

5 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

The Wye Valley Railway and the Coleford Branch by B.M.Handley and R.Dingwall, Oakwood Press.

Noted, thanks. I was recently gifted a few things to read on subject railway trucks'n'trows, must get round to them cos there's loads of good stuff...tangental, but since when has that mattered?!

[NHY 581]

I also suffer from tangential..........issues

[Annie]

I've got the orange Severn &  Wye one despite it being tangential.......

[Pacific231G]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

Exactly this. I suppose an equivalent would be if GWR pannier tanks had only ever worked the Falmouth branch! However, there are few other options as accessible or affordable. A pity, but then there's barely an acceptable butty narrowboat or rowing boat on the market in 1:76, so perhaps no surprise.

 

Ships are massive, as are ports, but then how many people model entire docksides? A reasonable sailing coaster could be 70-80' plus sticks; a steam coaster 80-100'...not small, but not huge and exactly right for the majority of settings seen on model railways. Even a more modern coaster or box boat  'only' take up about a meter of railway room. 

 

EDIT: Honourable mentions should go to Sarik, who have updated their Puffer to provide a more generic small coaster and Scale Scenes, who offer not just a Puffer but also a modern coaster and box boat, similar in style and size to the Deans Marine kits linked above but at a tiny fraction of the cost. Then again, they're not floating RC models - you pays your money...!

I'm not sure about Sarik's coaster, it looks to me to be neither one thing nor the other. For anyone wanting to look into this a bit more I can strongly recommend two books by Charles Waine. Steam Coasters & Short Sea Traders  (with Roy Fenton) and British Motor Coasters though I must admit I bought mine because they're lovely books rather than just as a modelling source.

Both include copious plans and photos and, though most of the vessels included are a bit too large  for our purposes, there are enough at around 100-115  ft to be useful and a certain amount of length compression can probably be got away with.   There is a chapter in the first book about puffers and it's followed by one on Short Raised Quarter Deck Coasters which at the smaller end weren't that much larger at 100 + ft than the larger Clyde puffers' 85ft (the limit set by the Crinnan Canal ) but definitely look more like a "proper" ship. 

 

Musing about what gives the impression of a proper coaster rather than a primarily inshore vessel like a puffer or sailing barge, is not so much the size, which may not be very much larger, but various features that seem to me to suggest a proper seagoing coaster (whose passages could be several days-so requiring watch-keeping) I'd include in those a proper bridge rather than the puffer's tiny wheelhouse "cab", lifeboats (larger than the small rowing boats on many models) in davits rather than sitting on the hatch cover, and a raised quarterdeck with accomodation. The crew may have been housed in the forepeak but the master, mate, and two engineers along with the galley and a mess room- which probably doubled as a chart room, would have had their cabins on the quarter deck. In a small steam coaster the engine room, normally contained the boiler without a separate boiler room and the boiler was invariably forward of the engine so, for a steamship,  the engine room skylight would be aft of the funnel- not in front of it as I've seen on several models- and large enough for machinery to be lifted in and out.   

More modern coasters with engine and bridge aft have all their accomodation aft as well.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Pacific231G

[Schooner]

On 29/11/2022 at 21:21, NHY 581 said:

I also suffer from tangential..........issues

Very good, carry on.

 

On 29/11/2022 at 21:31, Annie said:

I've got the orange Severn &  Wye one despite it being tangential.......

I'm not sure anything can be tangential for you, dear Annie, with your enviable ability to skip between different projects at will! Perhaps it feels like too much of a good thing, but I think it's a great pro of your modelling medium.

 

On 30/11/2022 at 01:54, Pacific231G said:

I'm not sure about Sarik's coaster...

Having bought their narrowboat, I am sure...

 

...that I wouldn't touch their products with a barge pole for anything but the most basic of uses. The price point is their sole attraction, and I'd struggle to recommend them on that alone.

 

On 30/11/2022 at 01:54, Pacific231G said:

Short Raised Quarter Deck Coasters which at the smaller end weren't that much larger at 100 + ft

I agree :) An example used elsewhere was the Tern:

105', Cyde-built in 1905; seen here in 'Era 3' trim; mined off the Manacles in March '41 but perfectly typical of coasters which could've been kept limping on for another ten years or more. As seen above but with an open bridge would cover 'Era 2'; remove the sails and fully enclose the bridge and wheelhouse for 'Era 4-5' if there was a need to keep it current. Could be compressed down to c.85' (340mm) without breaking. Not perfect, but would suit almost any steam layout with a quayside...

 

A steam coaster doesn't convey the regional information a sailing coaster would, but if one were to make a kit available in 1:76 I know which would make more commercial sense. The other option would be to use a universal hull for both - it was far from unknown for sailing coasters and trawlers to be de-rigged and motorised over time - although my impression is that the compromises required would lead to such a model being the worst of both worlds. Anyway.

 

The black dog which has been skulking about for most of the year got into the house again this week and has made itself at home, so not a lot to report. Trial rig and fit of the crane:

Much handling and so much touching-up of everything required and I'm waiting for some (finer, hopefully) chain from Eileen's, by which time there should be brain enough to work back from the brake lever and check the leads :)

[IanM78]

On 29/11/2022 at 17:35, Schooner said:

 

 

 

 

Just on a slight tangent I was down that part of the country at the weekend and  this is what the above location looks like today.

 

 

 

[Michael Crofts]

Looking at your pictures of the Stroudwater Navigation I assume you have this, which reminded me of this thread while I was reading it a couple of days ago (a wonderful book IMHO):

 

But do you have this?

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/severn-wye-railway-vol-5/L8658 

The Severn & Wye Railway volume 5 covers Lydney Dock and has some very useful images of boats and small ships. Also the clutter of a working harbour used by vessels from both the coasting trades and the inland waterways which crossed from Sharpness or sailed up from Bristol. James Smart of Chalford sent his barges here, and across to Bullo Pill via the Framilode spur and lock This is one of the sample pictures on the publisher's site:

 

By the way Brockweir (mentioned above, and only a few miles from my home) is the limit of ordinary tides on the Wye and it still has an official harbourmaster even though the last decent-sized vessel to pass through was, I believe, the Wye Invader about which I could ramble on for ages. 

 

For those who don't quite follow the geography of all this I would be willing to put up a map but I don't want to hijack Schooner's thread.

 

[Pacific231G]

For a suitable alternative to the ubiquitous (on model railways but not in reality!) Clyde Puffer, there is an excellent and very detailed article by Gordon Gravett on his models (in 4mm & 2mm scale) of the 110 ft (length overall) Bristol Channel coaster SS Radstock, a small steam ship with a single hold   built for the Somerset and Dorset in 1925, sold to its master in 1933, commissioned "for the duration*" and sold to A.J.Smith and Co. and subsequently to  Bristows- both Bristol coal merchants so presumably used as a collier.  She's not one of the coasters featured in Steam Coasters & Short Sea Traders but her general arrangement is quite similar to the SS Tern- mentioned above.   She seems to be an unusually narrow vessel for her length, presumably to navigate waterways around the Bristol Channel such as the one from Burnham to Highbridge.

 

* I couldn't find out very much more about the SS Radstock than what is in Gordon's article but I did discover that, during the war, she was based at Watchett and used by the Royal Navy to recover radio controlled seaplane drones. They were using these as anti-aircraft gunnery targets to train warships' crews and they ended their flights in the Bristol Channel- often completely undamaged  after repeated attempts to shoot them down.  There is a photo of the Radstock doing this duty at  https://www.vintagewings.ca/stories/mother-of-all-drones

Edited December 20, 2022 by Pacific231G

[The White Rabbit]

11 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

For a suitable alternative to the ubiquitous (on model railways but not in reality!) Clyde Puffer, there is an excellent and very detailed article by Gordon Gravett on his models (in 4mm & 2mm scale) of the 110 ft (length overall) Bristol Channel coaster SS Radstock, a small steam ship with a single hold   built for the Somerset and Dorset in 1925, sold to its master in 1933, commissioned "for the duration*" and sold to A.J.Smith and Co. and subsequently to  Bristows- both Bristol coal merchants so presumably used as a collier.  She's not one of the coasters featured in Steam Coasters & Short Sea Traders but her general arrangement is quite similar to the SS Tern- mentioned above.   She seems to be an unusually narrow vessel for her length, presumably to navigate waterways around the Bristol Channel such as the one from Burnham to Highbridge....

 

On the subject of Mr G and his excellent maritime modelling, can I add some MRJ references which may be of use/interest?

 

'The Mew' - a GWR ferryon the River Dart in 4mm - issue 132

'MV Alacrity' - a 'post war collier' - issue 149

A 'North Devon gravel barge' in 7mm scale - issues 212 & 213.

 

[Schooner]

 

Merry Christmas all!

 

Wherever you are, whatever you're doing and whoever you're with, I hope you have a lovely day. Thanks for all, and the very best wishes for 2023, we've earned a good'un!

[Schooner]

I've just come across one of Compound's useful snippets and wanted to log it somewhere. Bells rang, an 1880s meat van (requiring Mansell wheels, it appears) being the only van in the proposed MR stock set* :

 

Whilst here, a quick update on the layout. Not much, things being what they are, but chipping away at tasks has kept progressing ticking over with the last of the construction tasks now complete. The layout is now clad in 5mm ply and gaps filled:

Layout expansion is non-negotiable.

 

Bracket (folding) and socket for cassette reception is fitted and functional, if not faired:

Oh, I see it's like central...only different! Centres under the cassette it supports though, which is the important bit.

 

Had I thought through this aspect more fully, or earlier, a better job could've been made of it...but I didn't, so didn't :) It's fine though and does work as intended to allow trains on- and off-scene.

 

Oh, and the point levers (actual - DCC Concepts' S Levers now live in a ply-and-plasticard box on the front of the layout, held on with magnets for easy removal (as it's the only sticky-out bit, and thus liable for unscheduled material strength testing). I quite like the patina and polish patterns developing on the brass levers but have half an idea to paint them, the colour to match each 1:76 counterpart on the layout (currently all black) to make it easier for others to know which lever moves which turnout.

 

Scenics-wise not much to report - that's the next target area - but the new edges need sorted, a final go at the ground cover (this time I mean it), each building to be finished before being replaced and once the dust has settled, literal and figurative, the epoxy for the canal can be poured. Then detailing and boats...

 

Stock-wise, there's been a little light 'Bayage:

At £30 the most expensive bit of stock on the layout, by some margin. However, having missed a few previously (which ended North of £50 per), and feeling its absence on the stock list** I'm happy to have secured one at all. A brief but helpfully informative thread on turning the clock on these back to c.1895 trim is here.

 

Also liberated from the Bay of Fleas, a second brace of David Green (as 'Great Western Wagons') 3-planks seen here in a quick colour test of a red spray primer - buffers are only loose fitted etc. The end style being unspecified, I assumed they would be square-ended, but on arrival they turned out to be round. Rather than hack about the new wagons (which I made a better job of building than their older brethren), I cut down the older ones. A couple of round-ended wagons is, I think, a gentle nudge to a pre-1900 feel...but one can have too much of a good thing!

 

A bit of painting and general tidying and that's that, for now. Pip pip!

 

*Order placed and paid for in April. Latest news "Most of your order is done and ready for packing....I’ll be sending that parcel next week.", 2nd June. All subsequent efforts to establish comms have been unacknowledged, including RMWeb messages which confirm prompt reading. Frustrating.

** I really like that barges Eastbound along the Stroudwater were often so heavy they required two horses; returning (frequently empty) they only needed one. The other horse got a day off and then followed back to Bristol or Gloucester by rail, often in a cattle wagon rather than a horsebox allegedly.

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, Schooner said:

I've just come across one of Compound's useful snippets and wanted to log it somewhere. Bells rang, an 1880s meat van (requiring Mansell wheels, it appears) being the only van in the proposed MR stock set* :

 

No, not that one. Spokes for that.