Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[Dunsignalling]

33 minutes ago, SteveM666 said:

Well I am not going with the herd on this one.

The history of model railways is full of new and innovative features that started off as gimmicks but quickly became refined and ultimately standard on a majority of models. For example the hobby started with a big key sticking out of a clockwork motor and progressed through DC to Zero 1, DCC and more recently HM7K.

I see the inclusion of working lights on steamers as another step along that same road.

Its called progress.

Not if it involves the deliberate introduction of inaccuracy. You really shouldn't be able to see oil lamps in daylight anyway, even when they are lit.

 

OK some "train-setters" don't and never will care so long as they are offered a procession of new gimmicks, but it does rather negate Hornby's loud public claims of authenticity. Nobody in the industry can afford to ignore the "modeller" segment, though. If you don't believe that, consider who all the new entrants have been targeting, and who they haven't.

 

Make the lamps removeable/interchangeable (even if it means ditching the illumination) or don't bother at all is my position.

 

However, I'm having second thoughts about my pre-order. I'll most likely cancel and wait until it becomes clear how easy (or not) it will be to remove this cr4p.  

 

John

Edited October 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Not if it involves the deliberate introduction of inaccuracy. You really shouldn't be able to see oil lamps in daylight anyway, even when they are lit.

 

OK some "train-setters" don't and never will care so long as they are offered a procession of new gimmicks, but it does rather negate Hornby's loud public claims of authenticity. Nobody in the industry can afford to ignore the "modeller" segment, though. If you don't believe that, consider who all the new entrants have been targeting, and who they haven't.

 

Make the lamps removeable/interchangeable (even if it means ditching the illumination) or don't bother at all is my position.

 

However, I'm having second thoughts about my pre-order. I'll most likely cancel and wait until it becomes clear how easy it will be to remove this cr4p.  

 

Unfortunately, in the world of model railways, being everything to everyone doesn't work.

 

Unless you can deliver an 'innovation' that functions in a prototypical manner, it's best not to bother.

 

Alternatively, decide if you want to sell blingy, gimmicky toy trains, or models that look and function in a prototypical manner.

 

CJI.

[Flying Pig]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Unfortunately, in the world of model railways, being everything to everyone doesn't work.

 

Unless you can deliver an 'innovation' that functions in a prototypical manner, it's best not to bother.

 

Alternatively, decide if you want to sell blingy, gimmicky toy trains, or models that look and function in a prototypical manner.

 

CJI.

 

Simply untrue.  Gimmicks are an established part of high end models and many people demand them.

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Simply untrue.  Gimmicks are an established part of high end toys models and many people demand them.

 

🙃

[Flying Pig]

7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

🙃

 

Potato tomato.  They're all toys at the end of the day and the same people are demanding authenticity and gimmick.

[cctransuk]

17 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Potato tomato.  They're all toys at the end of the day and the same people are demanding authenticity and gimmick.

 

Well - in that case, Hornby are failing miserably on the authenticity front!

 

What is demanded, and what is possible under current technology, are two entirely different things.

 

If the day comes when it is possible to provide headlamps which glow dimly - as per prototype; are removeable - as per prototype; and fit on a scale lamp iron - as per prototype; I will be the first to welcome that miracle.

 

Until then - don't bother!

 

CJI.

[HExpressD]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Well - in that case, Hornby are failing miserably on the authenticity front!

 

What is demanded, and what is possible under current technology, are two entirely different things.

 

If the day comes when it is possible to provide headlamps which glow dimly - as per prototype; are removeable - as per prototype; and fit on a scale lamp iron - as per prototype; I will be the first to welcome that miracle.

 

Until then - don't bother!

 

CJI.

So, unless you can go from 0 to 100 in one go on the first try, don't bother trying?

[cctransuk]

As an aside - it is significant that, nowadays, it is alleged that customers 'demand' innovation; at one time, we were pleased if the product simply fulfilled its function.

 

It is, I believe, today's marketting executives who 'demand' innovation, regardless of the practicalities of current technology; all part of the race to out-do the competition.

 

I do NOT believe that potential purchasers would not buy the forthcoming Hornby 'Black Five', just because it lacked working lights.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

So, unless you can go from 0 to 100 in one go on the first try, don't bother trying?

 

..... don't bother putting it before the buying public.

 

If you want to innovate, carry the process of product development through until you achieve a prototypical result. Premature marketting of a half-a*sed solution will only damage your brand image - as this thread proves.

 

CJI.

[Flying Pig]

10 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Well - in that case, Hornby are failing miserably on the authenticity front!

 

What is demanded, and what is possible under current technology, are two entirely different things.

 

If the day comes when it is possible to provide headlamps which glow dimly - as per prototype; are removeable - as per prototype; and fit on a scale lamp iron - as per prototype; I will be the first to welcome that miracle.

 

Until then - don't bother!

 

CJI.

 

See, where you're falling down here is forgetting that other people are not you and have different opinions about what is desirable.

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

So, unless you can go from 0 to 100 in one go on the first try, don't bother trying?

No, but don't knowingly do it inappropriately. Do as much as you can without compromising the model. The gimmick-lovers are only part of the market. Will they buy enough extra ones to balance out those who are put off purchasing?

 

Better to keep anything "revolutionary" under wraps until you have got it right and ready to go. The between-the-lines text here is "this is as good as we've managed to get it, but we need to make a few quid off it asap."

 

Has Hornby perhaps "done a Terrier" once more, having got wind of somebody else developing a similar feature. Just "getting it out" in a half-assed fashion will do more harm than good if the competition does it properly six months later...   

 

John

Edited October 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

See, where you're falling down here is forgetting that other people are not you and have different opinions about what is desirable.

 

Certainly not - I express my opinion, you counter with yours.

 

I thought that was the function of discussion groups - or are we all supposed to have crystal balls, and only post what you would agree with.

 

Nowhere have I suggested that my opinion automatically overrides all others!

 

CJI.

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Unfortunately, in the world of model railways, being everything to everyone doesn't work.

 

Unless you can deliver an 'innovation' that functions in a prototypical manner, it's best not to bother.

 

Alternatively, decide if you want to sell blingy, gimmicky toy trains, or models that look and function in a prototypical manner.

 

CJI.

 

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Simply untrue.  Gimmicks are an established part of high end models and many people demand them.

Hornby already have a unique selling point as they are the only manufacturer so far producing a OO Black Five. They have the basis of a high end model and also have a gimmick available via the steam effect and  the TXS chip neither of which compromise the core model and therefore dont potentially lose sales to the likes of me.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

I do NOT believe that potential purchasers would not buy the forthcoming Hornby 'Black Five', just because it lacked working lights.

 

CJI.

 

In my case, the reverse looks likely to be the case.

 

Detailing/weathering is one thing, but I'm a bit reluctant to start chopping electronic "features" out of a £250 loco....

 

John

Edited October 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Flying Pig]

48 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Certainly not - I express my opinion, you counter with yours.

 

I thought that was the function of discussion groups - or are we all supposed to have crystal balls, and only post what you would agree with.

 

Nowhere have I suggested that my opinion automatically overrides all others!

 

CJI.

 

No you (as always) present your opinion as the only one.  I haven't even expressed my opinion about the model.

 

Not in the mood.

[E100]

Whilst I'll be the first to say I don't want express lamps on my Black 5, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. It's a sound innovation that needs some further refinement. As someone pointed out it's not an issue with loco's like A3's/A4's/P2's so I'd prefer to see the fixed iteration of this innovation on these. As to brightness concerns, which I share, I would also hope that in future iterations this would become controllable.

 

Progress comes with taking risks and this is one of them. Whether it's justified remains to be seen!

[Dunsignalling]

24 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

No you (as always) present your opinion as the only one.  I haven't even expressed my opinion about the model.

 

Not in the mood.

 

Just trolling, then? 😇

Edited October 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

If the day comes when it is possible to provide headlamps which glow dimly - as per prototype; are removeable - as per prototype; and fit on a scale lamp iron - as per prototype; I will be the first to welcome that miracle.

imo all of this is very do-able imo.

 

interestingly the solution may have accidentally presented itself in the 6202 thread… those who have fitted the top lamp complain its too dim…. C’est la vie.

 

Heres hoping Hornby are listening and take the feedback to get it right, imo this could be very good…. imo Springside lamps were nice but their day was back in the 1980’s.. 40 years is long enough to wait for innovation..

 

It is a balance though, get it right I bet it will be popular, get it wrong… well the pitch forkers are already waiting at the front door, the axe grinders wheel is spinning and the usual bully boys are huddling at the shelter.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

No you (as always) present your opinion as the only one.  I haven't even expressed my opinion about the model.

 

Not in the mood.

 

OK - I'll bite!

 

Please point to where I have indicated my position as being the only one.

 

Do you really not understand the principle of debate - parties present their position forcefully; the opposition does likewise. The audience comes to a concensus as to which party has best presented their stance.

 

There is no place for personal denigration - indeed, it is actively discouraged.

 

CJI.

[No Decorum]

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

imo all of this is very do-able imo.

 

interestingly the solution may have accidentally presented itself in the 6202 thread… those who have fitted the top lamp complain its too dim…. C’est la vie.

 

Heres hoping Hornby are listening and take the feedback to get it right, imo this could be very good…. imo Springside lamps were nice but their day was back in the 1980’s.. 40 years is long enough to wait for innovation..

 

It is a balance though, get it right I bet it will be popular, get it wrong… well the pitch forkers are already waiting at the front door, and the axe grinders wheel is spinning.

 

If I can find a sound project for the Turbomotive (which is well down in the queue), I hope that it will be possible to dim the lights by resetting a CV. The red lights in reverse aren’t such a problem; I’ll just turn them off. As for a Black 5, I already have all three boiler variations of the present tooling and they are good enough. The Caprotti? It depends on what else is competing with it for funds. I think I’m happier with non-working  headcode lamps which can be set to different configurations than I am with working lamps fixed in a certain code.

 

I regard a feature which doesn’t work well as a gimmick. If it works properly it isn’t a gimmick. When it comes to people complaining that the top lamp on the Turbomotive is too dim, I think the point is not that it is too dim in absolute terms but that it is too dim compared to the other two lamps. In a model, consistency is important. It would be better if the express lamps were as dim as the upper one. In any case, an upper lamp in conjuction with two fixed lower lamps doesn’t mean anything and is a waste of effort.

[MattR]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

imo Springside lamps were nice but their day was back in the 1980’s

 

Aww ... I like Springside lamps 🙁

[maico]

5 hours ago, SteveM666 said:

Well I am not going with the herd on this one.

The history of model railways is full of new and innovative features that started off as gimmicks but quickly became refined and ultimately standard on a majority of models. For example the hobby started with a big key sticking out of a clockwork motor and progressed through DC to Zero 1, DCC and more recently HM7K.

I see the inclusion of working lights on steamers as another step along that same road.

Its called progress.

 

Removable LED lamps have been around a long time in RTR. My Trix Ho K-class is 22 years old. The front and rear lamps just plug in. When the LED burn out the replacement lamps are cheap to buy.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by maico

[adb968008]

Ive dozens of Roco etc…

 

but German lamps are electric and are bright by nature.

They arent used for a purpose indicator, as such Footplate crews dont adjust them.

 

For that reason european models dont have them posable in different positions.

 

 

I wonder if this confusion has spilled out to China who fail to understand the lamps have differing purpose in Europe/US to UK ?

I could imagine China thinking adding lamps to UK models is like dragging UK model railways into the late 20th century for model railway technology, and perhaps pricing that in.. Taking it out maybe viewed as backwards, and wouldnt reduce factory price anyway, as theyve been doing it like that for decades for everyone else.

To address the point of removing them on European models.. yes they can be removed, but then youve simply a model with a part missing until you put it back…

 

 

The part that would really blow the purists is adding underframe ditch lights… A number of European models have that, as does Tornado and err one that will really inflame a few here, so does 34070 Manston, complete with red and white LED lamps….

 

Even preserved locos can innovate..

Edited October 19, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, SteveM666 said:

Well I am not going with the herd on this one.

The history of model railways is full of new and innovative features that started off as gimmicks but quickly became refined and ultimately standard on a majority of models. For example the hobby started with a big key sticking out of a clockwork motor and progressed through DC to Zero 1, DCC and more recently HM7K.

I see the inclusion of working lights on steamers as another step along that same road.

Its called progress.

But sometimes what some folk regard as 'progress' turns out to lead to a dead end.  

 

The illuminated Class A lamps on the Turbomotive make a lot of sense because it was specifically an express passenger engine.  Putting Class A/1 lamps on a mixed traffic engine is more a matter of turning a poyrenyially new idea into a gimmick.  It would make a lot more sense to use Class C/3 lamps if you are going to restrict it to a fixed code and it would make tremendous sense and real progress if it were to have interchangeable lamps (even if they were only limited at thsisstage to the bottom 3 positions should the smokebox be too difficult.

 

And where I really want to see some progress is with automatic couplings - I suspect far more modellerswould welcome that as opposed to over bright lamps showing a headcode which will be wrong for much of the time

[markw]

27 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It would make a lot more sense to use Class C/3 lamps if you are going to restrict it to a fixed code 

 

But isn't that exactly what the photos show, Hornby have fitted fixed Class C/3 lamps to the Black Five.