Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[paulbb]

A  BR version with large Scottish Region style cab numbers would tempt me into buying!

[adb968008]

I’ve got to admit they are a bit TT on steroids myself to look at.

 

The Black 5 itself looks good. My only concern is the old one looks good too.. but the bottom end is much better.

Edited November 25, 2023 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’ve got to admit they are a bit TT on steroids myself to look at.

 

The Black 5 itself looks good. My only concern is the old one looks good too.. but the bottom end is much better.

I'm sticking with my preorder for the Caprotti 5MT but, on this showing, the lamps will get junked.

 

I had anticipated replacing my pair of "ordinary" Fives, but I now can't see that happening unless I can move the lamps around; working or not!

 

John

Edited November 25, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[pH]

22 minutes ago, paulbb said:

A  BR version with large Scottish Region style cab numbers would tempt me into buying!

Of the three in those pictures, one was a Scottish Region engine, at least for all of its time under British Railways (45157). And another was a Scottish Region engine until the code of its home shed was changed - 44726 was shedded at Kingmoor which changed from 68A to 12A.

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Such a shame about those lamps - deal breaker for me I’m afraid, properly ‘orrible. 

 

Agreed turns a good quality but expensive model into a tacky toy.

May as well put speedweelz under it.

Wonder what SK thinks of it.

[Trevor Hammond]

Those lamps look awful and overscale.

Time for Hornby to ditch the gimmicks and concentrate on getting the basics correct.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Trevor Hammond

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Trevor Hammond said:

Those lamps look awful and overscale.

Time for Hornby to ditch the gimmicks and concentrate on getting the basics correct.

Totally agree. Problem is, now that Hornby have displayed those silly lamps in the showcase at Warley, there is no going back, without eating a huge slab of humble pie. But they could easily say "We listened to our customers, and have decided not to proceed with the lighting arrangements. 

 

Hornby could easily place a bit of positive spin and say  "we are dropping the plans for the lighting and can announce that the planned RRP will be reduced because of our decision".  

Edited November 26, 2023 by Covkid

[Downer]

18 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Totally agree. Problem is, now that Hornby have displayed those silly lamps in the showcase at Warley, there is no going back, without eating a huge slab of humble pie. But they could easily say "We listened to our customers, and have decided not to proceed with the lighting arrangements. 

 

Hornby could easily place a bit of positive spin and say  "we are dropping the plans for the lighting and can announce that the planned RRP will be reduced because of our decision".  

Absolutely sensible.  Too much so, I fear.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Downer

[Butler Henderson]

New slogan for them needed - Hornby putting the toy back into models

Edited November 26, 2023 by Butler Henderson

[Johan DC]

Maybe Hornby's market is more than RMweb? If they get possitive feedback from other customers/retailers, they might go ahead is planned. 

It are (expensive) toys after all. 

[Mallard60022]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Ugh! Way too many, and way too big.

 

Hope they'll come off cleanly without leaving a load of damage to make good.....

 

I'm just going to remove them unless it creates electrical mayhem. If people can't do that then I fear for the future of Modelling. NO offence tyo you JIhgn in any way as I know you would be able to do just this).

I built a Comet Crap Potty 5 and it looked pretty good. Probably £300 worth pf Model by the time I'd done. Could I have sold it for more? Doubt it despite it being  a proposed 44756. Even Mr T Wright liked it and allowed it to gallop around Little Bytham!

Hornby's version looks as good, bar the silly Searchlights, but at the proposed price then it's a damn good bargain.

Come on people, this is RM (standing for?) Web, not fancy gifts for zero skills Tik Tok supporters.

Phil  

[Compound1000]

Seems very likely to me, I mean trains that have lights are a great thing! I rememeber the first one I had was awesome, it was a Hornby HST set! (in my defence, I think I was 8 😁) They are trying to appeal to a wide market, including kids, adults with huge variations in their disposable income and collectors who likely never run their models at all. 

 

If H want to do the full "lights show", I suggest they put the feature on a "Railroad" version using an older tooling and sell it at a price that's more reachable for children's parents. A model with all sorts of fine detail retaining at north of £200 is aimed at a different market IMO. I'd wanted to ask some questions of Hornby's folks on their Warley stand yesterday about the Black 5 and the Standard 2 but unfortunately didn't get a chance where they weren't thronged.

 

I've got several current Hornby 5s in my collection and had definitely planned on getting the new one, though maybe not batch 1, as of now I'll see.  

[cctransuk]

30 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I'm just going to remove them unless it creates electrical mayhem. If people can't do that then I fear for the future of Modelling. NO offence tyo you JIhgn in any way as I know you would be able to do just this).

I built a Comet Crap Potty 5 and it looked pretty good. Probably £300 worth pf Model by the time I'd done. Could I have sold it for more? Doubt it despite it being  a proposed 44756. Even Mr T Wright liked it and allowed it to gallop around Little Bytham!

Hornby's version looks as good, bar the silly Searchlights, but at the proposed price then it's a damn good bargain.

Come on people, this is RM (standing for?) Web, not fancy gifts for zero skills Tik Tok supporters.

Phil  

 

I don't think that this debate is specific to Hornby's new Black Five - it seems to me to be about a deeper concern about the way that new products are being developed nowadays.

 

Innovation has been, up to this point, desireable and to be welcomed; it has pushed the boundaries and produced vast improvements in authenticity. However, we seem now to have reached a critical stage.

 

The latest developments - lighting, sound, steam generation, etc., etc. - are, from a 'traditional' railway modelling perspective, producing a negative effect as far as authenticity is concerned.

 

We have become used to ever more of the interior of our models being filled with mares' nests of wires and electronics, and huge plugs and sockets visible between locos and tenders.

 

I have previously expressed my views on the loss of tractive effort that results from this mass of electronics but, when the actual visible aspect of the model is seriously compromised with fixed lights, surely it is time to say 'Enough'!

 

There is now, undoubtedly, a strong market for models with all the 'bells and whistles', and that market seems not to want to be bothered with what I would call 'traditional' railway modelling; (no offence intended).

 

There is (still), I believe, a strong cohort of the potential market whose priority is authenticity, and it is my belief that that section of the market is in danger of being left behind by the demands of company marketing executives for ever more gimmickry.

 

Very few of those persons who run the more established producers seem to have any knowledge (or interest) in railways per se - their primary concern is potential and actual sales, naturally. For that reason, they are unable to properly assess the impact of these half-baked attempts to stand out in the market.

 

I believe that now is the time, for what I still believe to be the silent majority, to make the point - forcefully - that those of us who are 'traditional' railway modellers, rather than electronics enthusiasts, deserve more consideration when it comes to potential developments that compromise authenticity.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited November 26, 2023 by cctransuk

[spamcan61]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I don't think that this debate is specific to Hornby's new Black Five - it seems to me to be about a deeper concern about the way that new products are being developed nowadays.

 

Innovation has been, up to this point, desireable and to be welcomed; it has pushed the boundaries and produced vast improvements in authenticity. However, we seem now to have reached a critical stage.

 

The latest developments - lighting, sound, steam generation, etc., etc. - are, from a 'traditional' railway modelling perspective, producing a negative effect as far as authenticity is concerned.

 

We have become used to ever more of the interior of our models being filled with mares' nests of wires and electronics, and huge plugs and sockets visible between locos and tenders.

 

I have previously expressed my views on the loss of tractive effort that results from this mass of electronics but, when the actual visible aspect of the model is seriously compromised with fixed lights, surely it is time to say 'Enough'!

 

There is now, undoubtedly, a strong market for models with all the 'bells and whistles', and that market seems not to want to be bothered with what I would call 'traditional' railway modelling; (no offence intended).

 

There is (still), I believe, a strong cohort of the potential market whose priority is authenticity, and it is my belief that that section of the market is in danger of being left behind by the demands of company marketing executives for ever more gimmickry.

 

Very few of those persons who run the more established producers seem to have any knowledge (or interest) in railways per se - their primary concern is potential and actual sales, naturally. For that reason, they are unable to properly assess the impact of these half-baked attempts to stand out in the market.

 

I believe that now is the time, for what I still believe to be the silent majority, to make the point - forcefully - that those of us who are 'traditional' railway modellers, rather than electronics enthusiasts, deserve more consideration when it comes to potential developments that compromise authenticity.

 

John Isherwood.

I agree with much of what you say John, but it seems 'gimmicks' sell better than tractive effort so that's what "we" get. I'd venture to suggest 50% or more of locos sold never turn a wheel in anger so the tractive effort is irrelevant and doesn't positively impact the sales pitch, unlike the 'gimmicks'. Not a situation unique to toy trains.

[Dunsignalling]

32 minutes ago, Compound1000 said:

Seems very likely to me, I mean trains that have lights are a great thing! I rememeber the first one I had was awesome, it was a Hornby HST set! (in my defence, I think I was 8 😁) They are trying to appeal to a wide market, including kids, adults with huge variations in their disposable income and collectors who likely never run their models at all. 

 

If H want to do the full "lights show", I suggest they put the feature on a "Railroad" version using an older tooling and sell it at a price that's more reachable for children's parents. A model with all sorts of fine detail retaining at north of £200 is aimed at a different market IMO. I'd wanted to ask some questions of Hornby's folks on their Warley stand yesterday about the Black 5 and the Standard 2 but unfortunately didn't get a chance where they weren't thronged.

 

I've got several current Hornby 5s in my collection and had definitely planned on getting the new one, though maybe not batch 1, as of now I'll see.  

 

The Railroad Flying Scotsman would seem to be the logical victim! ☠️

 

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, spamcan61 said:

I agree with much of what you say John, but it seems 'gimmicks' sell better than tractive effort so that's what "we" get. I'd venture to suggest 50% or more of locos sold never turn a wheel in anger so the tractive effort is irrelevant and doesn't positively impact the sales pitch, unlike the 'gimmicks'. Not a situation unique to toy trains.

 

Sadly, I cannot argue with that!

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I agree with much of what you say John, but it seems 'gimmicks' sell better than tractive effort so that's what "we" get. I'd venture to suggest 50% or more of locos sold never turn a wheel in anger so the tractive effort is irrelevant and doesn't positively impact the sales pitch, unlike the 'gimmicks'. Not a situation unique to toy trains.

But the gimmicks are also entirely wasted on models that never run.

 

Why would anybody (who actually thought about it) lay out an extra hundred quid for DCC sound on a loco that will, at best, sit in a display cabinet, and, at worst, the cupboard under the stairs!

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I'm just going to remove them unless it creates electrical mayhem. If people can't do that then I fear for the future of Modelling. NO offence tyo you JIhgn in any way as I know you would be able to do just this).

I built a Comet Crap Potty 5 and it looked pretty good. Probably £300 worth pf Model by the time I'd done. Could I have sold it for more? Doubt it despite it being  a proposed 44756. Even Mr T Wright liked it and allowed it to gallop around Little Bytham!

Hornby's version looks as good, bar the silly Searchlights, but at the proposed price then it's a damn good bargain.

Come on people, this is RM (standing for?) Web, not fancy gifts for zero skills Tik Tok supporters.

Phil  

I'll have a nice new sharp pair of Xuron sprue cutters at the ready to remove all trace of the rally lights!

 

I won't be looking for work by buying any more than the Caprotti version, though.

 

Time and money will be far better spent on Brassmasters bits to improve my old ones.

 

John

Edited November 26, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Clive Mortimore]

44 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I'm just going to remove them unless it creates electrical mayhem. If people can't do that then I fear for the future of Modelling. NO offence tyo you JIhgn in any way as I know you would be able to do just this).

I built a Comet Crap Potty 5 and it looked pretty good. Probably £300 worth pf Model by the time I'd done. Could I have sold it for more? Doubt it despite it being  a proposed 44756. Even Mr T Wright liked it and allowed it to gallop around Little Bytham!

Hornby's version looks as good, bar the silly Searchlights, but at the proposed price then it's a damn good bargain.

Come on people, this is RM (standing for?) Web, not fancy gifts for zero skills Tik Tok supporters.

Phil  

Hi Phil

 

So you are all for chopping unnecessary things off then?

 

Now writing this one octave higher. I am torn between doing modelling which I enjoy and buying locos of a higher quality, and seeing the Black Fives yesterday, especially the Caprotti one sparked that I want one thingy in my head.

 

I would be reluctant to get any implement to an expensive new model but as everyone says them lights!!! Would they trust a Crappotty Five on the royal train? Seriously it is a bit of a dilemma for those willing to part with their cash and for Hornby. 

Now do I press ahead with my planned conversion of one of the more senior models or wait because after all I have this beauty which someone MODELLED many moons ago.

[Invicta]

18 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

The point surely is (AIUI) that models sold in the UK have to meet certain safety standards.  Is it realistic to sell models in the UK with movable therefore detachable "lamps" which are say 5mm high by 2mm wide by 2mm deep ?

 

That interview video with Hornby suggested they were still trying to work out how to make the lighting work on the Black five - suggesting they weren't following an established  design. Smacks tome of HM7000 bluetooth control where the marketers were selling something the engineers hadn't signed off. 

  

 

Yes, I've just watched the video back, and saw the bit about them working out how to do the lighting.

 

Comparing the Black 5 samples with the Turbomotive, one thing that strikes me is that the lamps stand out less because they're black/Crimson lake, compared to the white ones on the Black 5- although presumably they'll still be as excessively bright, unless Hornby have put some kind of dimmer into the circuit.

 

I can't shake off the thought that maybe Hornby would be better served by having figured out an optimum solution to the question of steam loco lighting before bringing it to market- I've got very mixed feelings about paying out £200+ for a loco to almost become part of Hornby's development programme!

[adb968008]

So the conversation I had…

 

revealed apparently theres an LED under each lamp iron position.

Although the frame is 1mm thick, taking this into account it only leaves 0.1mm for the lamp to fit.

The factory wants to glue them, to stop them falling off in transit.

But not fitting them risks user fitting damage.

so catch 22.

 

my suggestion is 1 LED in the body somewhere, run a light track to the lamp iron positions. Then use lamps with a light track spike into the lampframe as it would give a full 1mm push fit.

It reduces leds from 4 to 1 led, as if theres a lamp it will be lit, theres no combination of lit / unlit lamps.

You could then also have a 1mm deep spike push fit lamp iron too, though i’d suggest having the lampiron metal than plastic.

I understand this batch is near ready, its the next loco tooling inline to arrive, so i’m guessing room to manoeuvre at this point is limited.

I didnt ask if there was a lampiron in the box, but there wasnt in the Turbomotive, and gluing them in sounds terminal, as removing them may leave a hole to fill in addition to a lampiron.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[Invicta]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So the conversation I had…

 

revealed apparently theres an LED under each lamp iron position.

Although the frame is 1mm thick, taking this into account it only leaves 0.1mm for the lamp to fit.

The factory wants to glue them, to stop them falling off in transit.

But not fitting them risks user fitting damage.

so catch 22.

 

my suggestion is 1 LED in the body somewhere, run a light track to the lamp iron positions. Then use lamps with a light track spike into the lampframe as it would give a full 1mm push fit.

It reduces leds from 4 to 1 led, as if theres a lamp it will be lit, theres no combination of lit / unlit lamps.

You could then also have a 1mm deep spike push fit lamp iron too, though i’d suggest having the lampiron metal than plastic.

I understand this batch is near ready, its the next loco tooling inline to arrive.

I didnt ask if there was a lampiron in the box, but there wasnt in the Turbomotive, and gluing them in sounds terminal.

 

 

 

 

 

If I'm reading that right, then it seems to imply that what we're seeing at Warley is what we'll get.

 

Maybe one of Hornby's 2024 announcements will be Royal Train coaches....

[adb968008]

55 minutes ago, Invicta said:

 

If I'm reading that right, then it seems to imply that what we're seeing at Warley is what we'll get.

 

Maybe one of Hornby's 2024 announcements will be Royal Train coaches....

Unfortunately not sure.

he did say all the lights had been fitted for the show, and we have seen pictures previously with only some.

 

The clue would be if lamp irons are included. If they are then that’s a good result, as it’s configurable. (and an after market for good lamps is created)
 

If not, removing a lamp will reveal an led lighting skywards that needs to be resolved.

 

unfortunately I didn’t ask if there was lampirons included separately… but if its an option I would say dont fit either, let the user fit their own choice, but on the current design I could imagine that being an issue for some less able modellers.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'll have a nice new sharp pair of Xuron sprue cutters at the ready to remove all trace of the rally lights!

 

I won't be looking for work by buying any more than the Caprotti version, though.

 

Time and money will be far better spent on Brassmasters bits to improve my old ones.

 

John

I reckon Brassmasters might just produce a replacement front end kit to replace or cover the 'orrid Footplate level Rally (love that) Lamps (could be Yellow Fogs?). If not, it won't be difficult and the three Leeds 4475X were notoriously filthy machines. 

P

[Legend]

Ditch the lights Hornby . It’s a step too far . You’ve turned a model into a toy . And at that price enthusiasts won’t make allowances or compromises